Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[DJH1971]

What I believe to be a flange-greaser has been installed at the south end of platform 3 at Earlestown. This is not specifically related to electrification, but is part of the improvements at Earlestown.

Never heard of one of those. What are they for?

 

[joeykins82]

Greasing flanges?

(sorry!)

 

[snowball]

... on tight curves, like the very tight ones for traffic joining/leaving the Chat Moss line at Earlestown.

 

[Welshman]

post deleted.

 

[edwin_m]

A flange greaser looks a bit like a small beer barrel with a pipe going to the rail. As a train passes it depresses a plunger which pumps a little bit of grease onto the bit of the rail that the flange rubs on. And hopefully not onto the rest of the rail.

 

[Class 170101]

What I believe to be a flange-greaser has been installed at the south end of platform 3 at Earlestown. This is not specifically related to electrification, but is part of the improvements at Earlestown.

You wouldn't happen to have a picture of it?

 

[LDECRexile]

Never heard of one of those. What are they for?

I wish I knew how to post photos on this site, as I have a couple of the item in question and quite a few which illustrate works in progress, notably at Earlestown, Huyton & Roby. If anyone can help I'd appreciate it.

I am neither railwayman nor engineer, so my amateur "explanation" is likely to discombobulate those who know what they are talking about, but here goes: I believe a flange-greaser is a reservoir (cylinder about 2' high and about 15" diameter) full of Mk1 gungey grease with a pipe to a feeder on the inside of a check rail on sharp curves such as Earlestown's bi-directional South to West single line. When wheels pass over the feeder it smears a bit of grease on the outide of the flanges, so that they uncur less wear on both wheels and check rail over time.

On the subject of this curve, does anyone know if Pendolinos will be able to traverse it, making it a potential diversionary route between Liverpool and Crewe?

 

[driver_m]

Yes pendos will be using the curve. The curve is already used for diverting 390s (with the aid of a 57)

 

[deltic08]

I wish I knew how to post photos on this site, as I have a couple of the item in question and quite a few which illustrate works in progress, notably at Earlestown, Huyton & Roby. If anyone can help I'd appreciate it.

I am neither railwayman nor engineer, so my amateur "explanation" is likely to discombobulate those who know what they are talking about, but here goes: I believe a flange-greaser is a reservoir (cylinder about 2' high and about 15" diameter) full of Mk1 gungey grease with a pipe to a feeder on the inside of a check rail on sharp curves such as Earlestown's bi-directional South to West single line. When wheels pass over the feeder it smears a bit of grease on the outide of the flanges, so that they uncur less wear on both wheels and check rail over time.

On the subject of this curve, does anyone know if Pendolinos will be able to traverse it, making it a potential diversionary route between Liverpool and Crewe?

Almost right. Only the outside rail on a curve is treated as that is where the flange is hard against the inside of that rail on slow speed, flat curves due to inertia of the trains mass wanting to travel in a straight line. This is what causes rail squeal of metal to metal not only in flange against rail but because the outside wheel on a curve has to travel a greater distance than the inside wheel. Because both wheels are fixed together by a solid axle they both have to rotate at the same speed. One of the wheels on an axle has to microskid negotiating a sharp curve. If the flange and railhead are lubricated then this allows skidding of the outside wheel without wear to rail head and wheel tread.

Squealing has become worse since B4 bogies were superceded by longer BT10bogie derivatives with greater distance between axles. To put it simply, the longer the bogie the less well it fits in the curve causing harder contact with the rail on the bogie extremities of outside wheels and inner points of the inside wheels. Pacer coaches act like a really long bogie and consequently squeal nearly everywhere.

The contact point footprint between railhead and wheel is only the area of a £2 coin. No wonder Pacers slide.

A passing train wheel activates a treadle attached to the rail and pumps out a walnut size amount of grease from the container. From this point grease is spread around the curve on the flanges. In time, grease does spread to the railhead.

The wheel tread is profiled by turning so that the flange does not normally touch the side of a rail. Super elevated transition curves also allow running without flange contact. Where it does bump against a rail usually means the driver is exceeding the speed limit for that curve or limit of the wheel profile speed. 100mph profiles are different to 125mph profiles and 186mph profiles. Bogie hunting at speed is where the profile becomes worn allowing the flange to touch the rail or the railhead profile has flattened due to wear or ridged due to bogie oscillation (not to be confused with rail burn due to traction skidding). That is where railhead grinders are used to reprofile without replacement. In the old days, 60 feet lengths of bullhead rail were either turned top to bottom or north to south. This way the same length could be used four times. Impossible with flat-bottom cwr.

I travelled out of Kings Cross one day on the non-stop Deltic hauled Leeds Executive plus eight Mk1/2 coaches leaving twenty minutes late. We had a totally unchecked journey until Hare Park Junction south of Wakefield. It was obvious we were motoring as the soup was sloshing over the dishes in First Class from flange bumping. We passed Doncaster in what is now HST times. The guard was not concerned when I mentioned to him we were well over 100mph. A few days later I discovered that the speed police had been out and clocked the driver at 119mph near Stevenage. He was subsequently fined three days pay for exceeding line speed but he arrived Leeds ontime.

 

[edwin_m]

The other issue here is bogie rotation. B4 and older bogies rotated freely so could align the wheels as well as possible with the track and reduce squeal. However this also meant they could zigzag along the track at high speeds, hence the soup-spilling behaviour known as hunting. By the time the BT10 was developed there was a better understanding of bogie dynamics and dampers (shock absorbers) were added to make the bogie more difficult to rotate. This largely eliminated hunting but does mean more flange contact.

I believe top-to-bottom turning of bullhead rail was abandoned many years ago because it was found that after many trains had passed over the top of the rail, the bottom had become indented at every chair. Side-to-side is still possible with flat bottom though I don't know how often it is done. I think in practice, even with fishplated sixty foot lengths let alone welded ones of hundreds of metres, this would have to be done by swapping the two rails rather than turning them end for end!

 

[LDECRexile]

Yes pendos will be using the curve. The curve is already used for diverting 390s (with the aid of a 57)

Thank you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Great replies by deltic08 and Edwin_M, much appreciated.

The following passage in deltic08's has me scratching my head in two ways:

"Almost right. Only the outside rail on a curve is treated as that is where the flange is hard against the inside of that rail on slow speed, flat curves due to inertia of the trains mass wanting to travel in a straight line."

1) that's what I always thought happened

but

2) the contraption, pipes and feeder at Earlestown are unquestionably attached to the checkrail on the INSIDE rail of the curve, I've double-checked my photos.

Puzzling.

 

[edwin_m]

Is there any superelevation (cant) on the curve?

If it is canted for non-stopping trains then stopping trains will be in flange contact with the lower rail and this might explain a lubricator on that side.

 

[LDECRexile]

Is there any superelevation (cant) on the curve?

If it is canted for non-stopping trains then stopping trains will be in flange contact with the lower rail and this might explain a lubricator on that side.

If there is cant it is so slight that I can't see it.

All passenger trains stop there (hourly Lime St-Warrington BQ and return) on this bi-drectional single track. Much heavier, but less frequent, traffic is the Seaforth Docks to Fiddlers Ferry power station loaded coal trains and returning empties. This traffic results in the trackbed being black with coal smalls and dust - quite nostalgic in a way!

 

[po8crg]

Does anyone know what the permanent speed restrictions on the line are intended to be after electrification?

I was trying to work out whether the 390s could (in theory) get to Weaver Junction faster via Earlestown than via Runcorn once the relevant line is electrified.

It's currently mostly 75mph, and I was assuming at least 90mph as the target for the transpennine improvements.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Does anyone know what the permanent speed restrictions on the line are intended to be after electrification?

I was trying to work out whether the 390s could (in theory) get to Weaver Junction faster via Earlestown than via Runcorn once the relevant line is electrified.

It's currently mostly 75mph, and I was assuming at least 90mph as the target for the transpennine improvements.

What's the PSR via Runcorn?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does anyone know what the permanent speed restrictions on the line are intended to be after electrification?
I was trying to work out whether the 390s could (in theory) get to Weaver Junction faster via Earlestown than via Runcorn once the relevant line is electrified.
It's currently mostly 75mph, and I was assuming at least 90mph as the target for the transpennine improvements.

The proposals were 90mph from a point east of Broad Green to Earlestown.
The new 90mph running towards Manchester currently starts at Newton-le-Willows Jn.
The 20mph at Earlestown towards Warrington, and the 50 at Winwick Jn onto the WCML won't change.

What's the PSR via Runcorn?

The fast line profile is 80mph after Wavertree (with a dip to 70 through Mossley Hill), then 95 from Halewood, 80-90 from Ditton to Halton Jn, then 100mph to Weaver Jn.
Some of this is EPS, so slower for 350s.
I think this profile is due to be improved with the upcoming resignalling.
On both routes the speed in the cuttings/tunnels between Lime St and Edge Hill is a poor 30mph, although for some reason the Up Slow on the north side (used by Chat Moss trains) is 40mph.
It all needs remodelling with reversible signalling.

Progress update from a tour today:
Masts continue to multiply around St Helens Jn, with a couple up close to Rainhill station.
Mast bases have gone in right up to the work site for the 4-tracking west of Roby.
There are also now a couple between Roby and Huyton on the south side.
And also now on the curve towards Wigan from the point where the routes bifurcate east of Huyton, linking up with the section done last year.
And also past Ince Moss onto the WCML beyond the junction.
It looks they will be rewiring most of Springs Branch Jn.

 

[po8crg]

What's the PSR via Runcorn?

Mostly 90 or 100, where Weaver Jn-Earlestown Jn is nearly all PSR 125.

The last bit of the approach to Liverpool from the South (through South Parkway station) is painfully slow in places.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Mostly 90 or 100, where Weaver Jn-Earlestown Jn is nearly all PSR 125.

Only to Acton Grange, then non-EPS 100/90/80/90 through Warrington to Winwick Jn (50) and Earlestown (20).

 

[driver_m]

Speeds through runcorn are 65. Up to 90 then 90/100 EPS just after Halton.

 

[driver_m]

Speeds through runcorn are 65. Up to 90 then 90/100 EPS just after Halton.

 

[Ploughman]

Thank you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Great replies by deltic08 and Edwin_M, much appreciated.

The following passage in deltic08's has me scratching my head in two ways:

"Almost right. Only the outside rail on a curve is treated as that is where the flange is hard against the inside of that rail on slow speed, flat curves due to inertia of the trains mass wanting to travel in a straight line."

1) that's what I always thought happened

but

2) the contraption, pipes and feeder at Earlestown are unquestionably attached to the checkrail on the INSIDE rail of the curve, I've double-checked my photos.

Puzzling.

NOt at all.
On some curves fitted with checkrails there are greasers fitted to the check rail. They do the same job but ease the passage of the back of the flange instead.
Crimple Curve on the Leeds - Harrogate line did have 2 sets of Check rail greasers fitted to both the Up and Down lines along with normal rail greasers fitted to the high rails on each line.
If you were on the track there you almost surely came off covered in the stuff.
Mind you without the greasers you needed ear defenders every time a pacer went past.

 

[edwin_m]

Can't see Earlestown being used routinely for Liverpool-London services. They woud have to cross the throat at Lime Street, fight for capacity with eveything else on the Chat Moss line and negotiate several flat junctions. The Runcorn route is much less used, partly four track and has a flying junction to the WCML.

 

[driver_m]

Can't see Earlestown being used routinely for Liverpool-London services. They woud have to cross the throat at Lime Street, fight for capacity with eveything else on the Chat Moss line and negotiate several flat junctions. The Runcorn route is much less used, partly four track and has a flying junction to the WCML.

They're not doing. It's only going to be a diversionary route in the same way a Manchester would be routed via styal. So probably uncommon. Whilst Runcorn is quieter it also has a big pinch point at Allerton. So there probably wouldn't be that much in it. Certainly not like a diversion via Alsager or Bescot

 

[deltic08]

Thank you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Great replies by deltic08 and Edwin_M, much appreciated.

The following passage in deltic08's has me scratching my head in two ways:

"Almost right. Only the outside rail on a curve is treated as that is where the flange is hard against the inside of that rail on slow speed, flat curves due to inertia of the trains mass wanting to travel in a straight line."

1) that's what I always thought happened

but

2) the contraption, pipes and feeder at Earlestown are unquestionably attached to the checkrail on the INSIDE rail of the curve, I've double-checked my photos.

Puzzling.

Edwin_m is correct about anti rotation damping. My experience with BT10 bogies is almost nil compared to B4s.

I am puzzled too. Must take more notice in future. Earlestown curve is not superelevated; line speed is 20 or 30mph from memory.

 

[bluenoxid]

I travelled out of Kings Cross one day on the non-stop Deltic hauled Leeds Executive plus eight Mk1/2 coaches leaving twenty minutes late. We had a totally unchecked journey until Hare Park Junction south of Wakefield. It was obvious we were motoring as the soup was sloshing over the dishes in First Class from flange bumping. We passed Doncaster in what is now HST times. The guard was not concerned when I mentioned to him we were well over 100mph. A few days later I discovered that the speed police had been out and clocked the driver at 119mph near Stevenage. He was subsequently fined three days pay for exceeding line speed but he arrived Leeds ontime.

How times change...

 

[Chris125]

I believe top-to-bottom turning of bullhead rail was abandoned many years ago because it was found that after many trains had passed over the top of the rail, the bottom had become indented at every chair.

It was actually 'double headed' rail which was designed with turning in mind, as the name suggests. First used on the London & Birmingham I think, turning was not a good idea in practice so it evolved quite quickly into bullhead rail where the head is larger than the foot and so can only be used one way.

Chris

 

[Ploughman]

Edwin_m is correct about anti rotation damping. My experience with BT10 bogies is almost nil compared to B4s.

I am puzzled too. Must take more notice in future. Earlestown curve is not superelevated; line speed is 20 or 30mph from memory.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This is my local line. I have used it since coming to Yorkshire in 1966. Again. I know the flange lubricators are there but must look closer next time as I assumed it was attached to the running rail. Possibly fitted to check rails after introduction of Pacers in 1984. Never too old to learn something new. Pacer flange squeal here is painful even with lubricators. You can see passengers holding their heads to reduce high frequency decibel assault on sensitive ear membranes.

I also have pity for the people who live in the cottage just behind the trees there. Its the old railway house near the old tunnel entrance.

 

[Western Lord]

Does anyone know what the permanent speed restrictions on the line are intended to be after electrification?

I was trying to work out whether the 390s could (in theory) get to Weaver Junction faster via Earlestown than via Runcorn once the relevant line is electrified.

As all Euston-Liverpool trains call at Runcorn why would you want to deprive Runcorn of it's London trains (and the service of revenue)?

 

[po8crg]

As all Euston-Liverpool trains call at Runcorn why would you want to deprive Runcorn of it's London trains (and the service of revenue)?

I don't. I was thinking about engineering diversions.

Sent from my BNTV400 using Tapatalk

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't. I was thinking about engineering diversions.

There's a whole lot of resignalling due on the Runcorn line soon, so the Earlestown diversion will be very handy at weekends.
Might call at Warrington instead of Runcorn.
Diversion via Manchester/Stoke is also possible when Norton Bridge gets rebuilt.