Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[driver_m]

The listed building planning application for Earlestown station has just been submitted to the local authority (St. Helens) by NR (see 'Images')

http://llpgport.oltps.sthelens.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=100855

Doesn't show any proposals for the single track Liverpool curve - is that short run not intended to be electrified ?

Yes it is 100% getting wired. This becomes the main diversionary route out of Liverpool for Virgin. (I don't know what LM's plans are though)

 

[PDG1949]

Looks like a simple TTC (twin-track cantilever) is proposed on P1, as at Prescot and other similar stations with old canopies on the opposite platform.

Yes - I suspect the Rainhill proposal will be similiar with TTCs on the Manchester platform. St. Helens Central station has mostly TTCs going in at the moment, except for just prior to Corporation St. bridge, where two opposing scrapes seem to suggest an arch.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

... an arch.

Or "portal structure" in the railway lingo

 

[DJH1971]

Going into Liverpool this morning, it appears that the stretch of return wiring between Broad Green to Olive Mount Junction has extended a little to just before Wavertree Technology Park.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Or "portal structure" in the railway lingo

You must certainly have a plethora of these terms accumulated within your memory banks as a result of a long connection with that particular industry...

 

[Joseph_Locke]

You must certainly have a plethora of these terms accumulated within your memory banks as a result of a long connection with that particular industry...

192 years and counting ...

Actually, I just own a very good book: Ellis' British Railway Engineering Encyclopaedia. It never leaves my side.

 

[PDG1949]

Actually, I just own a very good book: Ellis' British Railway Engineering Encyclopaedia. I never leaves my side.

Aha ! All is revealed - so that's where the ARCHaeology comes from !

 

[8A Rail]

Over the last few weeks, been noting the masts that have been erected so far on both lines to and from Huyton Junction and it seems on visual observation, that the spacing between each mast seems to be closer than what I've noted on the WCML and ECML. Now whether this "appears" to be the case I'm not sure but has anyone else noticed this though? If it's the case, anyone explain why?

 

[PDG1949]

Over the last few weeks, been noting the masts that have been erected so far on both lines to and from Huyton Junction and it seems on visual observation, that the spacing between each mast seems to be closer than what I've noted on the WCML and ECML. Now whether this "appears" to be the case I'm not sure but has anyone else noticed this though? If it's the case, anyone explain why?

Well, looking at the Huyton Junction/Ince Moss run I would be tempted to say that involved more curves than the Huyton Junction/Man Vic run and having said that it looks like a lot more TTC (Twin-Track Cantilevers) are involved and possibly because of this there may be closer spacings ?

 

[Class 170101]

We don't want ECML standard wiring do we.

 

[driver_m]

Slight progress to let you know about, Ordsall Jn to Deal St Jn goes live in 2 weeks time.

 

[HSTEd]

If its done at ECML wiring prices I would argue we definitely do.

That way there will be money for more electrification and more stock.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Slight progress to let you know about, Ordsall Jn to Deal St Jn goes live in 2 weeks time.

It was still devoid of wires last Monday.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Pictures of the progress in Olive Mount cutting and at Wavertree Technology Park Station earlier today.

With all the vegetation cut back, that is the clearest I can ever remember seeing it since was regularly set on fire from sparks from the steam engines working on the Edge Hill Gridiron above.

 

[Philip Elliott]

(I don't know what LM's plans are though)

"Passengers to travel on VT services"....

 

[8A Rail]

View attachment 18501Pictures of the progress in Olive Mount cutting and at Wavertree Technology Park Station earlier today.
With all the vegetation cut back, that is the clearest I can ever remember seeing it since was regularly set on fire from sparks from the steam engines working on the Edge Hill Gridiron above.

Click on these - this how clear it was before the trees in your images started to grow again - not long before it will be treed in again!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8arail/14151679965/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8arail/13965024498/

Well, looking at the Huyton Junction/Ince Moss run I would be tempted to say that involved more curves than the Huyton Junction/Man Vic run and having said that it looks like a lot more TTC (Twin-Track Cantilevers) are involved and possibly because of this there may be closer spacings ?

My observations for the closer spacings are on both lines and also include the straight parts of the lines too, so I dont think the extra TTC's as anything to do with it. Any member from within that could explain or give reasons why please?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

My observations for the closer spacings are on both lines and also include the straight parts of the lines too, so I dont think the extra TTC's as anything to do with it. Any member from within that could explain or give reasons why please?

Span length varies by:

• Mark or series of equipment (Mark 1/2/3/3A/3B/3C, UK1, Series 1/2)
• Maximum permitted conductor tension
• Maximum wind speed in the area
• Curve radius
• Presence of fixed constraints like birdges, stations, junctions (it may be necessary to have one more span and have them all a bit short as one fewer span may mean each one is too long)
• How long the adjacent spans are (to avoid harmonics)
• Available depth for the catenary; lower construction depth can mean shorter spans

And combinations of the above!

 

[deltic08]

Click on these - this how clear it was before the trees in your images started to grow again - not long before it will be treed in again!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8arail/14151679965/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8arail/13965024498/



My observations for the closer spacings are on both lines and also include the straight parts of the lines too, so I dont think the extra TTC's as anything to do with it. Any member from within that could explain or give reasons why please?

What a photo opportunity. I didn't realise Port of Tyne was sending biomass to west of the Pennines. Who is the lucky recipient? Does anybody know the route from Newcastle please and is this the only complete train of new hoppers?

 

[Geeves]

A few more bits went up last night at Victoria, one arch is now finished at the west end over the Diamond crossing and platform 5 line. They are two stanchions away from Victoria station its self with one set of foundations left to finish before they could wire into platforms 3 and 4.

 

[DJH1971]

A few more bits went up last night at Victoria, one arch is now finished at the west end over the Diamond crossing and platform 5 line. They are two stanchions away from Victoria station its self with one set of foundations left to finish before they could wire into platforms 3 and 4.

Cracking news to hear!

They still need to step up on the gas a bit in a few places though.

 

[8A Rail]

What a photo opportunity. I didn't realise Port of Tyne was sending biomass to west of the Pennines. Who is the lucky recipient? Does anybody know the route from Newcastle please and is this the only complete train of new hoppers?

GBRf have done a series of "test" trains, I think 5 in total since turn of the year originating from Tyne Dock to Tuebrook Sdgs but ultimately heading for Drax PS. It is in preparation for trains from Liverpool Bulk Terminal to Drax PS - no start date given yet. The route taken if I remember correctly was via Copy Pit (or was it L&Y - Hebden Bridge) then L&M line to Tuebrook Sdgs. The route to Drax PS from Tuebrook Sdgs was via L&M line, WCML Warrington BQ, then Northwich CLC route and across the Pennines to Drax PS. All workings have been 2x Class 66's and 27 "IIA" Biomass hoppers.

Click here for the first trial train - https://www.flickr.com/photos/8arail/14244965397/

Span length varies by:

• Mark or series of equipment (Mark 1/2/3/3A/3B/3C, UK1, Series 1/2)
• Maximum permitted conductor tension
• Maximum wind speed in the area
• Curve radius
• Presence of fixed constraints like birdges, stations, junctions (it may be necessary to have one more span and have them all a bit short as one fewer span may mean each one is too long)
• How long the adjacent spans are (to avoid harmonics)
• Available depth for the catenary; lower construction depth can mean shorter spans

And combinations of the above!

Thank you - very much appreciated

 

[deltic08]

GBRf have done a series of "test" trains, I think 5 in total since turn of the year originating from Tyne Dock to Tuebrook Sdgs but ultimately heading for Drax PS. It is in preparation for trains from Liverpool Bulk Terminal to Drax PS - no start date given yet. The route taken if I remember correctly was via Copy Pit (or was it L&Y - Hebden Bridge) then L&M line to Tuebrook Sdgs. The route to Drax PS from Tuebrook Sdgs was via L&M line, WCML Warrington BQ, then Northwich CLC route and across the Pennines to Drax PS. All workings have been 2x Class 66's and 27 "IIA" Biomass hoppers.

Click here for the first trial train - https://www.flickr.com/photos/8arail/14244965397/

Many thanks Doug. I thought it was an actual loaded flow Tyneside TO Liverpool. It will still be a cross Pennine flow when it starts.

 

[8A Rail]

Many thanks Doug. I thought it was an actual loaded flow Tyneside TO Liverpool. It will still be a cross Pennine flow when it starts.

They were loaded for the complete journey to Drax PS, hence two Class 66's and yes it will a cross Pennine flow too. Anyway, let us get back on to original thread subject.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A few more bits went up last night at Victoria, one arch is now finished at the west end over the Diamond crossing and platform 5 line. They are two stanchions away from Victoria station its self with one set of foundations left to finish before they could wire into platforms 3 and 4.

Slight progress to let you know about, Ordsall Jn to Deal St Jn goes live in 2 weeks time.

Going into Liverpool this morning, it appears that the stretch of return wiring between Broad Green to Olive Mount Junction has extended a little to just before Wavertree Technology Park.

Still no wires east of Ordsall Lane today.
Although most of the steelwork is up as far as Deal St, they are still working on the foundations either side of Salford Central.
In Olive Mount cutting, autotransformer wires are now up on both sides at the west end (high up on the masts).
At Huyton a new access to P2 has been installed while they rebuild the public subway - it looks as though they have had to cut into the new P3/P4 brickwork to install it!
I didn't notice anything new on the Wigan line (Down line, anyway).

Balfour Beatty's 3 construction trains are usually parked up at Edge Hill during the day to be resupplied for the next night's work.
But they were absent today, and I didn't notice them anywhere in the Phase 2 construction area.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Span length varies by maximum wind speed in the area

Out of interest, what records are consulted to establish this ?

 

[AidanCroft]

Span length varies by:

• Mark or series of equipment (Mark 1/2/3/3A/3B/3C, UK1, Series 1/2)
• Maximum permitted conductor tension
• Maximum wind speed in the area
• Curve radius
• Presence of fixed constraints like birdges, stations, junctions (it may be necessary to have one more span and have them all a bit short as one fewer span may mean each one is too long)
• How long the adjacent spans are (to avoid harmonics)
• Available depth for the catenary; lower construction depth can mean shorter spans

And combinations of the above!

I was wondering about the different OHLE types funnily enough. Can anyone correct/amend/add to my current data -

MK1 - early WCML, imperial measurements, cantilever, painted masts, copper wire/cantilevers, use of portals on multi track, cantilevers on twin track, uses corrosion resistant components

MK2 - Glasgow to Wemyss Bay only, metric measurements, cantilever, unique experiment, now phased out, used cheaper galvanised steel arms

MK3 - ECML and northern WCML, uses headspans, uses cantilevers on twin track, many problems with it, introduced on BedPan, galvanised masts/aluminium arms, simple sagged, auto tensioned, lower system height, higher tension, development of MK2, AWAC catenary

a - steel headspan wires, copper contact
b - ditto but aluminium headspan wires, uses metric components
c - ditto but copper catenary, imperial components
d - copper/tin contact

MK4 - 140mph running, thicker wires, incompatible with MK3, higher tension

UK1 - modification of MK1/MK3 using aluminium or maybe steel cantilever arms and non porcelain insulators, first designed for WCML upgrade

Series 1 - this removed over-boom catenary wire and associated bird and pulley wheel problems!

Series 2 - copper wire, bronze catenary, fixed earthing devices, Omnia aluminium cantilever sliding component arrangement, few components, removed over-boom catenary wire and associated bird and pulley wheel problems

 

[table38]

Is it worth including all the earlier stuff (for a truly definitive list!). Like the weird Southern Railway stuff with two catenary wires?

I'd always thought of setting up a web site with pictures/examples of all the various types used in the UK over the years, but never got around to it.

 

[snowball]

Another difference between the Marks is that Mk 1 was compound catenary (contact wire hung from a second wire hung from a third wire), whereas Mk 3 was simple catenary, and presumably so are the more recent ones. I don't know about Mk 2.

And then you can have either an autotransformer wire or an ordinary return wire with booster transformers.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I was wondering about the different OHLE types funnily enough. Can anyone correct/amend/add to my current data -
MK1 - early WCML, imperial measurements, cantilever, painted masts, copper wire/cantilevers, use of portals on multi track, cantilevers on twin track, uses corrosion resistant components
MK2 - Glasgow to Wemyss Bay only, metric measurements, cantilever, unique experiment, now phased out, used cheaper galvanised steel arms
MK3 - ECML and northern WCML, uses headspans, uses cantilevers on twin track, many problems with it, introduced on BedPan, galvanised masts/aluminium arms, simple sagged, auto tensioned, lower system height, higher tension, development of MK2, AWAC catenary
a - steel headspan wires, copper contact
b - ditto but aluminium headspan wires, uses metric components
c - ditto but copper catenary, imperial components
d - copper/tin contact
MK4 - 140mph running, thicker wires, incompatible with MK3, higher tension
UK1 - modification of MK1/MK3 using aluminium or maybe steel cantilever arms and non porcelain insulators, first designed for WCML upgrade
Series 1 - this removed over-boom catenary wire and associated bird and pulley wheel problems!
Series 2 - copper wire, bronze catenary, fixed earthing devices, Omnia aluminium cantilever sliding component arrangement, few components, removed over-boom catenary wire and associated bird and pulley wheel problems

Very interesting.
Was Mk4 just installed on the 140mph test sections of the ECML?
I can recognise Series 2 on the current NW scheme. Will we notice anything different about the Series 1 (high speed) gear when they get to put the GWML wires up?
I would imagine that of the current electrification schemes, high-speed wiring will only apply to the GWML east of Badminton/Box, and to the MML south of Sheffield.
And I wonder what will happen south of Bedford, with the OHLE only supporting 100mph?
From what I have read, the new wires in Scotland are not Series 1 or 2, so are they UK1?

 

[HSTEd]

As far as I know Mk4 was never put up anywhere.

ECML is Mark 3 in its entirity.