Manchester Metrolink

[plugwash]

It's a fairly tricky geometry to tie in with the tight curves into the platforms and the divergence of the 2CC and the original route,

Specifically it seems to me that what makes it tricky is firstly the cramped space and secondly that victoria has three platforms rather than two. The result is that the line from the "original city crossing" doesn't line up with the line into victoria.

The result is rather than a straight crossing like you would get at a normal two track junction you have two curves sitting on top of each other. The line from the original city crossing doing an S curve to meet the line into victoria and the line from victoria curving off towards the second city crossing.

 

[sprunt]

Is there an actual timetable for the Metrolink published anywhere? I can only find first and last tram times and service intervals on the bus stop? Or if not a timetable, a way of finding out travel times between stops?

I ask because I went to a show in town this week and got on the tram from Piccadilly Gardens at 10.38, at which point I was confident I'd be back in Bury in time to get my last bus at 11.16. It turned out that the tram pulled into Bury at just 11.16 so I missed the bus. To be clear, I'm not complaining, I was just surprised it took nearly 40 minutes from Piccadilly Gardens to Bury - if I do have a complaint it's that the last bus is so early, it feels like I should be able to go to an event in town which finishes around quarter past ten and get the tram and bus home.

Is the track issue at Victoria causing trams to take longer than usual to go through the city? It was when I was still quite near town that I first noticed I probably wasn't going to make the bus, and in the end I was surprised that the margin was so small.

 

[jfollows]

A response is pending for the FOI request for the latest working timetable at https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/manchester_metrolink_working_tim_7 and earlier timetables can be found there, if that helps.

 

[sprunt]

A response is pending for the FOI request for the latest working timetable at https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/manchester_metrolink_working_tim_7 and earlier timetables can be found there, if that helps.

Thank you! it seems ridiculous that it takes an FOI request for them to publish a timetable mind you.

 

[jfollows]

Thank you! it seems ridiculous that it takes an FOI request for them to publish a timetable mind you.

Agreed.
National Rail publishes its at https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/the-timetable/working-timetable/ but I don’t think Metrolink does similarly.

 

[plugwash]

Google maps journey planner appears to have a source of timetable information for metrolink. I just put your journey into google maps for tonight, and it thinks there is a tram leaving Picadilly gardens at 10:39PM and arrives at bury at 11:15 PM, which seems pretty consistent with your experiance.

Crossing Manchester city centre in general is often excruciatingly slow, whether by bus, train or tram. When I look at your journey google quotes me 10:39 PM for picadilly gardens and 10:46 PM for victoria. That's 7 minuites for a crow-fiels distance of 860m, the tram distance is slightly longer but still lets say it's a kilometer, that works out to an average speed of around 5 miles per hour.

 

[Class 466]

Thank you! it seems ridiculous that it takes an FOI request for them to publish a timetable mind you.

They're also available here: https://bustimes.org/operators/metrolink

 

[ValleyLines142]

3097 has had a very nasty bump with a car at Sale Water Park. If someone could add a link whilst I'm in work, would be appreciated.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

3097 has had a very nasty bump with a car at Sale Water Park. If someone could add a link whilst I'm in work, would be appreciated.

Looks like the incident was somewhere further along the Airport Line towards Wythenshawe (Hollyhedge Road).

More info and some pics here.

Metrolink lines blocked after car hits tram

Trams have been suspended between Manchester Airport and Sale Water Park

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Extract...

Tram services have been disrupted following a crash between a tram and a car.

The incident happened in Hollyhedge Road, Wythenshawe, this afternoon.

 

[Greybeard33]

Looks like the incident was somewhere further along the Airport Line towards Wythenshawe (Hollyhedge Road).

More info and some pics here.

Metrolink lines blocked after car hits tram

Trams have been suspended between Manchester Airport and Sale Water Park

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Extract...

The accident was at the junction between Hollyhedge Road and Wendon Road, which is controlled by traffic signals. The tram tracks are on a segregated alignment adjacent to Hollyhedge Road in this location, with a level crossing over Wendon Road. The signals should prevent conflicting movements of trams and road vehicles over the crossing.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Crossing Manchester city centre in general is often excruciatingly slow, whether by bus, train or tram. When I look at your journey google quotes me 10:39 PM for picadilly gardens and 10:46 PM for victoria. That's 7 minuites for a crow-fiels distance of 860m, the tram distance is slightly longer but still lets say it's a kilometer, that works out to an average speed of around 5 miles per hour.

The pedestrian and motor traffic between Picc Gardens and Shudehill particularly prevents the tram service from being any faster.
If there was more demand for a faster cross city Picc-Vic direct service in future, you'd send it down Thomas St from Shudehill, then down Hilton St (through Stevenson Square), Newton St and Portland St to rejoin the current route at Aytoun St just south of Picc Gardens.

A proper integrated bus/tram station would be nice at Picc Gardens, but there are bigger funding priorities and the site would be difficult to build on.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The pedestrian and motor traffic between Picc Gardens and Shudehill particularly prevents the tram service from being any faster.

If there was more demand for a faster cross city Picc-Vic direct service in future, you'd send it down Thomas St from Shudehill, then down Hilton St (through Stevenson Square), Newton St and Portland St to rejoin the current route at Aytoun St just south of Picc Gardens.

Does anyone think that the short distance street running tram lines from St Peters Square to Market Street and to Exchange Square is plenty enough for the small square mileage in the city centre. I know that the tram afficionados would have tram lines here, there and everywhere in the city centre, but remember the numbers of pedestrian shoppers alone who come by bus from a myriad of places to shop in the city centre.

 

[edwin_m]

Does anyone think that the short distance street running tram lines from St Peters Square to Market Street and to Exchange Square is plenty enough for the small square mileage in the city centre. I know that the tram afficionados would have tram lines here, there and everywhere in the city centre, but remember the numbers of pedestrian shoppers alone who come by bus from a myriad of places to shop in the city centre.

The second city crossing was justified mainly because the number of trams entering the city centre on all the new routes was too many to handle on the existing lines radiating from Piccadilly Gardens. It also had the advantage of serving the north side of the Arndale which was a bit far from any of the other stops. None of the other UK tramways has enough traffic to justify a second city centre route - with the possible exception of Croydon the existing ones could handle more trams if they ever needed to.

Any further new routes out to the suburbs (probably in the form of tram-train) is likely to need yet another route through the city centre.

 

[daodao]

Any further new routes out to the suburbs (probably in the form of tram-train) is likely to need yet another route through the city centre.

For the potential route via Reddish to Marple Rose Hill, the services currently terminating at Piccadilly could be extended along this new route without any changes to the city centre network. However, any other new services would probably need another route through the city centre.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The second city crossing was justified mainly because the number of trams entering the city centre on all the new routes was too many to handle on the existing lines radiating from Piccadilly Gardens. It also had the advantage of serving the north side of the Arndale which was a bit far from any of the other stops. None of the other UK tramways has enough traffic to justify a second city centre route - with the possible exception of Croydon the existing ones could handle more trams if they ever needed to.

Any further new routes out to the suburbs (probably in the form of tram-train) is likely to need yet another route through the city centre.

One of the more civilized thoughts on city centres is the reduction of any type of vehicles, so pedestrians can enjoy a more enjoyable and safe area in which to safely enjoy the different and varied facilities offered by city centres.

Pedestrians and trams being not very conducive to such aspirations is shown especially around all parts surrounding the area of the Market Street tram stop, especially where Victoria-bound trams take the sharp right direction to pass along the side elevation of the Arndale Centre.

 

[py_megapixel]

For the potential route via Reddish to Marple Rose Hill, the services currently terminating at Piccadilly could be extended along this new route without any changes to the city centre network. However, any other new services would probably need another route through the city centre.

I don't think the Second City Crossing is yet at capacity, though maybe it will be if/when the Trafford Park extension to Crumpsall finally happens. Of course that doesn't help trams serve Piccadilly and routes in that direction unless e.g. the Bury-Altrincham route was switched to go that way to free up capacity.

 

[daodao]

I don't think the Second City Crossing is yet at capacity

The second city crossing itself may not yet be at capacity, but Victoria Metrolink station is a pinch-point in the system, as has been seen in the last few weeks when the extra 5 tph service to Shaw has had to be suspended because of the current problem at Victoria. Any potential tram/tram-train service from Wigan/Atherton/Leigh would be probably have to run "on street" from Pendleton along Chapel Street and join the second city crossing south of Victoria.

 

[py_megapixel]

The second city crossing itself may not yet be at capacity, but Victoria Metrolink station is a pinch-point in the system, as has been seen in the last few weeks when the extra 5 tph service to Shaw has had to be suspended because of the current problem at Victoria.

Yes, that's true

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Was the tram accident score 3 last week?

 

[edwin_m]

For the potential route via Reddish to Marple Rose Hill, the services currently terminating at Piccadilly could be extended along this new route without any changes to the city centre network. However, any other new services would probably need another route through the city centre.

It could, though if these have to run with longer vehicles, that will hit capacity as they trundle slowly over the junctions at Picc Gardens.

 

[Mothball]

Was the tram accident score 3 last week?

4 in total.
3106 Portland Street.
3080 Harbour City.
3138 near the Snipe.
3097 the Airport line derailment.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Does anyone think that the short distance street running tram lines from St Peters Square to Market Street and to Exchange Square is plenty enough for the small square mileage in the city centre. I know that the tram afficionados would have tram lines here, there and everywhere in the city centre, but remember the numbers of pedestrian shoppers alone who come by bus from a myriad of places to shop in the city centre.

It depends on what you wish to run on Metrolink. It may have sufficient capacity now, but, as Edwin highlighted, further system extensions may require additional city centre crossings (Middleton comes to mind as a branch off the Bury route, although that could be served by an extension of the Trafford Centre to Crumpsall line).

 

[Bevan Price]

One of the more civilized thoughts on city centres is the reduction of any type of vehicles, so pedestrians can enjoy a more enjoyable and safe area in which to safely enjoy the different and varied facilities offered by city centres.

Pedestrians and trams being not very conducive to such aspirations is shown especially around all parts surrounding the area of the Market Street tram stop, especially where Victoria-bound trams take the sharp right direction to pass along the side elevation of the Arndale Centre.

And things are not helped by having too many traffic lights on the cross-city section.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It depends on what you wish to run on Metrolink. It may have sufficient capacity now, but, as Edwin highlighted, further system extensions may require additional city centre crossings (Middleton comes to mind as a branch off the Bury route, although that could be served by an extension of the Trafford Centre to Crumpsall line).

It may come as something as a surprise to you that from 1962 to its eventual closure in 1964, when I was in my first two years at Manchester University, I daily commuted from Middleton railway station to Manchester and on the return journey. At that time, the DMU went through Middleton Junction railway station which seemed to have timber baulk platforms on the main line then past the Vitriol Works signal box then through Moston station, which had a brick-built ticket office in those days. It was still worth passing the engine sheds at Newton Heath to see what steam engines were on view then on past the four-platform Miles Platting station, before descending the steep incline down to Manchester Victoria station. I hope even earlier memories do not confuse matters, but over that incline was a rail overbridge that took the lines from the Manchester Oldham Road goods depot to the running line at the rear of Miles Platting railway station on the Collyhurst estate side of the Rochdale bound line.

 

[Welshman]

It may come as something as a surprise to you that from 1962 to its eventual closure in 1964, when I was in my first two years at Manchester University, I daily commuted from Middleton railway station to Manchester and on the return journey. At that time, the DMU went through Middleton Junction railway station which seemed to have timber baulk platforms on the main line then past the Vitriol Works signal box then through Moston station, which had a brick-built ticket office in those days. It was still worth passing the engine sheds at Newton Heath to see what steam engines were on view then on past the four-platform Miles Platting station, before descending the steep incline down to Manchester Victoria station. I hope even earlier memories do not confuse matters, but over that incline was a rail overbridge that took the lines from the Manchester Oldham Road goods depot to the running line at the rear of Miles Platting railway station on the Collyhurst estate side of the Rochdale bound line.

Didn't a dmu come to grief, running away down the incline into Middlelton station, and smashing through the blocks?

I was familiar with part of your journey, as the dmu from the Calder Valley would speed through the station and crossovers at Middleton Junction, then after passing though Newton Heath station, take the right turn and follow the four-tracked Cheetham Hill line to Victoria via Red Bank Carriage sidings. It's interesting now to travel on part of that line on the Rochdale metrolink tram.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Didn't a dmu come to grief, running away down the incline into Middlelton station, and smashing through the blocks?

That unfortunate occurrence happened at the terminal Royton railway station, not Middleton, on 8th February 1961. Two ECS Cravens two set DMU did what you said, but such was the momentum even after demolishing the buffer blocka, the train went straight across the adjacent High Barn Street, crashing into the terraced house opposite the railway station.

 

[jfollows]

Thank you! it seems ridiculous that it takes an FOI request for them to publish a timetable mind you.

And that isn’t guaranteed to work, there is today a seemingly ridiculous holding response (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/manchester_metrolink_working_tim_7):

Further to your request for information, I am writing to advise you that
we require more time to respond to your request as we are considering a
public interest test under Section 38(1) of the Freedom of Information Act
(FoIA). Section 38(1) exempts from disclosure information that would be
likely to endanger an individual (this could be the applicant, the
supplier of the information or anyone else).

 

[Bungle965]

And that isn’t guaranteed to work, there is today a seemingly ridiculous holding response (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/manchester_metrolink_working_tim_7):

Sounds like something that needs to be appealed to the ICO.

 

[MetrolinkInsYT]

Something I've always wondered: Why does a tram spend so much time stopped at a terminus? At places like MediaCityUK, with the Eccles via MCUK services, the tram driver can get out of the cab and turn back around in just over a minute, but terminating trams will stay put at a terminus for 8-10 minutes before leaving, which results in people running for a tram that isn't leaving for a while (which I see a lot with Trafford Centre services at Deansgate), and the Metrolink using more trams, when there is already an ongoing problem about the lack of double trams being used on busier lines like Altrincham, South Manchester, and Bury.

The red route from Deansgate to The Trafford Centre operates every 12 minutes (journey is 22 minutes, takes 8 minutes to turn around = 60 minutes round trip) meaning 5 trams operate on this line instead of: (journey is 22 minutes, takes 2 minutes to turn around = 48 minutes round trip) saving a tram from service. If every single Metrolink route were more efficient like this, 11 trams total would be saved from service, and that may save someone from missing a full tram, or running for one that won't leave for 10 minutes.

Does anyone know why they can't just turn around quicker?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Something I've always wondered: Why does a tram spend so much time stopped at a terminus? At places like MediaCityUK, with the Eccles via MCUK services, the tram driver can get out of the cab and turn back around in just over a minute, but terminating trams will stay put at a terminus for 8-10 minutes before leaving, which results in people running for a tram that isn't leaving for a while (which I see a lot with Trafford Centre services at Deansgate), and the Metrolink using more trams, when there is already an ongoing problem about the lack of double trams being used on busier lines like Altrincham, South Manchester, and Bury.

The red route from Deansgate to The Trafford Centre operates every 12 minutes (journey is 22 minutes, takes 8 minutes to turn around = 60 minutes round trip) meaning 5 trams operate on this line instead of: (journey is 22 minutes, takes 2 minutes to turn around = 48 minutes round trip) saving a tram from service. If every single Metrolink route were more efficient like this, 11 trams total would be saved from service, and that may save someone from missing a full tram, or running for one that won't leave for 10 minutes.

Does anyone know why they can't just turn around quicker?

Presumably timetable resilience plays a part
You want some spare time to allow late trams to catch up to the timetable otherwise lateness will stack and stack (like some bus routes).