Manchester & North West Transformation Programme

[InOban]

This may not be relevant, but I read that one of the arguments for wiring Bolton to Wigan is that currently the dmus have to come a distance eg from Newton Heath, while the emus will be based next door at Springs Branch. Maybe NH has no longterm future.

 

[snowball]

Will newton heath depot be also electrified during the works, unable to download due to memory problems.

The documents don't contain that sort of detail. Maybe nobody knows yet.

 

[507020]

This may not be relevant, but I read that one of the arguments for wiring Bolton to Wigan is that currently the dmus have to come a distance eg from Newton Heath, while the emus will be based next door at Springs Branch. Maybe NH has no longterm future.

769s have to come all the way from Allerton, reversing at Lime Street. As a Diesel depot, when Diesel itself as a fuel has no long term future, the best thing for Newton Heath must be electrification in the same way as happened at Allerton.

 

[jonesy3001]

Cannot see them knocking down NH depot as they've just recently opened the new shed for the 195s.

 

[YorksLad12]

It's very unambitious compared to previous plans. In 2015 the following were proposed to start in the five year period from 2019

However, nothing in that plan was an official government proposal.

Indeed. It was an odd hybrid of DfT and Rail North report, with the driver coming from officers working in local authorities. Never anyone's policy, just a wishlist. Got a lot of media attention when it was launched though.

 

[507020]

It's very unambitious compared to previous plans. In 2015 the following were proposed to start in the five year period from 2019

• Calder Valley (Full)
• Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central
• Southport/Kirkby to Salford Crescent
• Chester to Stockport
• Northallerton to Middlesbrough
• Leeds to York via Harrogate
• Selby to Hull
• Sheffield (Meadowhall) to Leeds via Barnsley / Castleford & connections
• Bolton to Clitheroe
• Sheffield to Doncaster/Wakefield Westgate (Dearne Valley)
• Hazel Grove to Buxton
• Warrington to Chester

Indeed. It was an odd hybrid of DfT and Rail North report, with the driver coming from officers working in local authorities. Never anyone's policy, just a wishlist. Got a lot of media attention when it was launched though.

It seems like this list identified NEED for electrification, not what anyone was willing to fund, despite the fact that the underlying need for electrification on all of these routes will remain until it is done and it will only get more expensive to deliver the longer it gets left.

 

[Viscount702]

It is stated above that the fully funded elements are the December 22 timetable change and the infrastructure to support it and the diesel and electric Unit swap.
Do we know what the infrastructure works are and the unit swaps

 

[Greybeard33]

It is stated above that the fully funded elements are the December 22 timetable change and the infrastructure to support it and the diesel and electric Unit swap.
Do we know what the infrastructure works are and the unit swaps

Not spelled out in the TfN document, but I imagine the infrastructure for December 2022 could only be minor platform lengthening works. Don't know where though. 2022-23 "unit swaps" most likely refers to cascade in of the WMT 323s to replace the remaining 319s and of the outstanding 156s from EMR (see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-class-156s-for-northern.221430/page-7#post-5568323).

 

[geoffk]

Yes, there are a few options for Rose Hill - to me making via Bredbury (the busier of the two) tram only OHLE (even if diesel freights have to use it too - do they?) with the New Mills/Sheffield going via Guide Bridge would be the best way. The trams could run on street from Piccadilly to Ashburys to avoid any crossover with the 25kV. Romiley is the only issue left, which could be two single lines Navigation Road style.

Or tram-train via Bredbury all the way to Rose Hill, track sharing with National Rail through Romiley. How many freights are there normally through Romiley? Yesterday there were nine betwen 05.00 and 2015 but others cancelled.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Which way do the stone trains from Hindlow Quarry go?

 

[507020]

Which way do the stone trains from Hindlow Quarry go?

Via Guide Bridge and Denton it seems. There is a need for them to be facing towards Crewe. It would also be possible for them to go via Cheadle Heath, Altrincham, Northwich and Middlewich.

 

[billh]

I am fairly sure that stone trains are banned between Romiley and Ashburys via Bredbury, the problem being Reddish viaduct. Trains go via Guide Bridge and Denton to go south and GB to Ashburys stone terminal , empties routed via Philips Park , Ashton Moss , Denton and Stockport. There are regular bin liners and stone trains for the terminals at Bredbury, accessed over the stub end of the old CLC line from Woodley Junction.

 

[Agent_Squash]

And yet we’re still not electrifying Windermere…

 

[507 001]

Eliminating the single track bottleneck at Navigation Road was one of the objectives of the Hale/Altrincham to Rose Hill proposal. It creates problems when trams don't run to time and usually results in a southbound service being terminated at Timperley to prevent delays in the city centre later on. The local rail user's group asked that they ensure the trams that connect with trains at Altrincham aren't terminated short but Metrolink control don't listen to requests like that.

Metrolink control don’t have that information to hand. It isn’t that they don’t listen. It also isn’t necessarily to prevent delays in the city centre, rather it’s to ensure drivers aren’t coming off late for breaks, which can cause no end of problems.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And yet we’re still not electrifying Windermere…

With that in mind, can I offer up....

"I wandered lonely as a cloud
That floats on high o'er hills and seas
When all at once I saw a crowd
A host of rail catenaries
Beside the lake, beneath the trees
Fluttering and dancing in the breeze"

With apologies to William Wordsworth

 

[Mcr Warrior]

"I wandered lonely as a cloud
That floats on high o'er hills and seas
When all at once I saw a crowd
A host of rail catenaries
Beside the lake, beneath the trees
Fluttering and dancing in the breeze"

With apologies to William Wordsworth

More William McGonagall than William Wordsworth, I would suggest.

 

[WAO]

And yet we’re still not electrifying Windermere…

... or Marsden, Crossgates, Oxford, Bristol, Leicester, Felixstowe.....

WAO

 

[ian1944]

More William McGonagall than William Wordsworth, I would suggest.

Not even approaching McGonagall - his take on the line would have something like

The Kent, the Kent, the silvery Kent
As seen by those who from Oxenhope went

 

[EllieAquitrain]

With regards to Rochdale to Clitheroe above, would it not be better for a Rochdale to Blackburn direct service via the Copy Pit line, leaving from the east-facing bay platform at Rochdale station. How safe in financial terms is the service from Blackburn to Clitheroe as a viable entity?

The purpose of Rochdale to Clitheroe isn't to be a service between Rochdale and East Lancashire, it's a service between Manchester and East Lancashire. Connectivity with Rochdale is an additional, circumstantial benefit. As multiple posts since yours have mentioned, there is a need for short extensions from Manchester Victoria of trains that would otherwise terminate there, to free up platform space — Rochdale-Clitheroe is an instance of that.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not even approaching McGonagall - his take on the line would have something like

The Kent, the Kent, the silvery Kent
As seen by those who from Oxenhope went

No-one seems to realise that my poetic offering was made including the phrase "rail catenaries" in response to a posting noting "no mention of the electrification of the Windermere line"...

The purpose of Rochdale to Clitheroe isn't to be a service between Rochdale and East Lancashire, it's a service between Manchester and East Lancashire. Connectivity with Rochdale is an additional, circumstantial benefit. As multiple posts since yours have mentioned, there is a need for short extensions from Manchester Victoria of trains that would otherwise terminate there, to free up platform space — Rochdale-Clitheroe is an instance of that.

Doesn't the Manchester Victoria - Bolton - Blackburn - Clitheroe service still run as well as the Manchester - Rochdale - Todmorden - Burnley Manchester Road - Blackburn service?

 

[EllieAquitrain]

Doesn't the Manchester Victoria - Bolton - Blackburn - Clitheroe service still run as well as the Manchester - Rochdale - Todmorden - Burnley Manchester Road - Blackburn service?

I believe so. I took your post to mean that a reduction in the service via Bolton could be addressed with a Rochdale—Blackburn shuttle via Todmorden, when as I understand it, in reality the two routes serve different markets.

 

[td97]

DfT press release this morning. Focuses on the stations/signalling work rather than electrification.

Manchester and North West rail passengers to see more reliable journeys with £84 million investment

Package of infrastructure upgrades to transform journeys for train passengers in the North West.

www.gov.uk

 

[Manutd1999]

It is stated above that the fully funded elements are the December 22 timetable change and the infrastructure to support it and the diesel and electric Unit swap.
Do we know what the infrastructure works are and the unit swaps

There were rumours that a turnback siding was being installed to the east of Victoria, around Collyhurst? Not sure if this was ever confirmed/disproven?

 

[northwichcat]

Metrolink control don’t have that information to hand. It isn’t that they don’t listen.

As pretty much all the Chester train departures from Altrincham are at around 10 past the hour, it just needs them to ensure the service scheduled to arrive at Altrincham at around 3 minutes past the hour (from Piccadilly) doesn't get terminated short because the one scheduled to arrive at 9 minutes past (from Bury) has almost caught it up. The two or three minutes between a delayed Piccadilly service and the Bury service is the difference between catching an hourly train and missing it. The local rail users group and local authorities have been telling Metrolink this for 20 years or more.

It also isn’t necessarily to prevent delays in the city centre, rather it’s to ensure drivers aren’t coming off late for breaks, which can cause no end of problems.

The last time I experienced it was when there was a protest at Piccadilly Gardens causing disruption and they decided to terminate all the services from Piccadilly at Timperley and to only run the Bury services through to Altrincham.

 

[Greybeard33]

It is stated above that the fully funded elements are the December 22 timetable change and the infrastructure to support it and the diesel and electric Unit swap.
Do we know what the infrastructure works are and the unit swaps

Not spelled out in the TfN document, but I imagine the infrastructure for December 2022 could only be minor platform lengthening works. Don't know where though. 2022-23 "unit swaps" most likely refers to cascade in of the WMT 323s to replace the remaining 319s and of the outstanding 156s from EMR (see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-class-156s-for-northern.221430/page-7#post-5568323).

DfT press release this morning. Focuses on the stations/signalling work rather than electrification.

Manchester and North West rail passengers to see more reliable journeys with £84 million investment

Package of infrastructure upgrades to transform journeys for train passengers in the North West.

www.gov.uk

The above DfT press release has now clarified what the infrastructure works for December 2022 are:

Works are now underway with upgrades to track-side equipment between Manchester and Liverpool and platform extensions on the Cumbrian route. This will support the introduction of longer trains with extra seats and an upcoming timetable change across the region will increase reliability.

I imagine the platform extensions are between Carnforth and Barrow and between Oxenholme and Windermere, to enable double 195 formations to be used on the Airport - Cumbria services after they are rerouted via Bolton.

The trackside equipment upgrades might be ASDO beacons at some stations on the CLC line, in preparation for the introduction of TPE 5-car Mk5a sets and 6-car 185 formations.

 

[Viscount702]

The above DfT press release has now clarified what the infrastructure works for December 2022 are:

I imagine the platform extensions are between Carnforth and Barrow and between Oxenholme and Windermere, to enable double 195 formations to be used on the Airport - Cumbria services after they are rerouted via Bolton.

The trackside equipment upgrades might be ASDO beacons at some stations on the CLC line, in preparation for the introduction of TPE 5-car Mk5a sets and 6-car 185 formations.

As usual not much detail in the press release. However I think you may be right as to what is likely to be done.

Also on the emu swap in addition to the 323/319 I wonder if this may also include the swapping of 331/1 and 331/0 between east and west.

It has been mentioned a few times that a turnback is being constructed to the east of Victoria. I don't believe ther has been any confirmation of this or eye witness reports of works being carried out. Do we know if this is happening.

 

[snowball]

A 6 car turn back siding is in the process of being built right now on the Northern side ....we were briefed on this a few weeks ago

Just to clarify, is this east or west of Victoria? Both have been discussed in this thread as possible or desirable.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just to clarify, is this east or west of Victoria? Both have been discussed in this thread as possible or desirable.

Just before the lines run under the Rochdale Road overbridge, as you approach that area coming from Victoria, on the left-hand side were there ever Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway carriage sidings in past days. The old area name was Newtown.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I imagine the platform extensions are between Carnforth and Barrow and between Oxenholme and Windermere, to enable double 195 formations to be used on the Airport - Cumbria services after they are rerouted via Bolton.

Would the Oxenholme branch platform be able to fit 6 cars without messing with the layout too much?

Reckon a lot of the Furness line stations will be fine - Barrow will have room for 6, and a lot of the extensions could just be opening up disused parts of the platform again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would the Oxenholme branch platform be able to fit 6 cars without messing with the layout too much?

Reckon a lot of the Furness line stations will be fine - Barrow will have room for 6, and a lot of the extensions could just be opening up disused parts of the platform again.

It's a shame they won't consider, if using 6-car formations, doing hourly from the Airport every hour to both destinations, doing any infrastructure work necessary to split/join at Lancaster rather than lengthening the branch platforms. That would be a real upgrade.