Manchester - Northern PM Peak Hour Restrictions

[185]

Just a brief thread to see if people consider if...

- i) the Manchester afternoon peak hour restrictions are no longer required and should go, or...

- ii) the afternoon peak restrictions should stay, given the overcrowding which they prevent.

After the demise of Arriva Rail Northern, and with the mayor and local politicians now looking closely at the county's (terrible) ticketing, I wonder what people's views are on this.

At present, Off-peak Day Returns and Travelcards have a 1601-1829 ban Mondays to Fridays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would probably get rid.

 

[Bertie the bus]

IIRC it didn't have anything to do with reducing overcrowding but was a case of Northern requires too much subsidy and ticket prices in PTE areas had to increase to reduce it. Presumably, currently, Northern is subsidised even more than when these restrictions came in.

 

[JonathanH]

It would be great to see the half price evening ranger return as well but my guess is that the higher prices will have been deemed to be revenue generative and should remain in place.

Let's not forget that London has higher prices in the evening peak on Oyster / Contactless (other than from outside Zone 1 into Zone 1) and London's fare structure if often held up as a model for other places to follow.

 

[Hadders]

IIRC it didn't have anything to do with reducing overcrowding but was a case of Northern requires too much subsidy and ticket prices in PTE areas had to increase to reduce it. Presumably, currently, Northern is subsidised even more than when these restrictions came in.

That's how I remember it. In fact wasn't evening peak restrictions one of a suite of options considered, aanother one of which was car park charges?

 

[johntea]

If making the outward journey off peak unless you know specifically in your head you'll be returning between 16:01 and 18:29 you should just purchase an off peak ticket and should you happen to then end up travelling between 16:01 and 18:29 get an excess for the ticket, of course this is probably easier said than done if the destination station contains the dreaded revenue contractors but as far as I'm aware they cannot prosecute in that scenario (I am sure they will try and claim otherwise of course!)

 

[Starmill]

The restrictions should be changed so that boarding at a selected set of stations is not permitted between specified times. Journeys arriving in the city centre at around 1900 do not need to be priced up in the way they currently are (as they leave a suburban station before 1830) as these trains are rarely busy. There should be no PM restrictions for journeys such as Warrington to Birchwood, Wigan to Bolton or Heald Green to Wilmslow.

 

[jfollows]

There should be no PM restrictions for journeys such as Warrington to Birchwood, Wigan to Bolton or Heald Green to Wilmslow.

I once came home on a train from Manchester Airport to Wilmslow with a cheap day return but technically should have been excessed because the train left Manchester Airport after 4pm; what is silly about this is that anyone starting from Manchester would have been fine with a cheap day return because the train left there before 4pm. Anyway (unusually) I didn't think but didn't have my ticket checked anyway.

I suspect there's some not-so-hidden intimidation to scare people into buying the more expensive ticket "just in case" whereas, as johntea says, if your plans change and you end up travelling in the peak it's only necessary to pay a simple excess, prosecution isn't allowed.

Northern was given a "choice" which came down to increasing car park charges or this, since I walk to the station I'm obviously unhappy about the choice that was made. But, really, it makes an already complex and generally unfathomable fares system even worse, and puts people off travelling by train even more I imagine. If you're lucky enough to be able to buy a ticket from a person they try and be helpful, as do I, because I ask for a cheap day return and say "I'm returning before 4pm" or whatever to speed up the process for everyone. Goodness only knows how it is with the dreadful ticket machines, I haven't tried to use them for ages.

Now we've had Covid-19 and a long-term reduction in people travelling at "peak" times, I think these sort of afternoon peak fares should be scrapped everywhere. Go back to "cheap day returns" after some time like 09:30, return at any time the same day, which was the system roughly since my youth, and generally well understood.

Similar restrictions apply from other places such as Birmingham New Street. That one's easy to circumvent, for those of us who understand the fares system, and that's also bad - people "in the know" can get round these annoying restrictions whereas "normal" people can't.

As a tentative first step in "fare simplification" it wouldn't be hard to scrap these annoying restrictions because we'd only be going back to where we were a few years ago. Let's do it!

 

[JonathanH]

Now we've had Covid-19 and a long-term reduction in people travelling at "peak" times, I think these sort of afternoon peak fares should be scrapped everywhere.

Far more likely, with a future of single leg pricing, that peak fares apply everywhere is the afternoon peak. Indeed, it is the only way that single leg pricing can maintain revenue unless morning peak fares are priced higher than half the current anytime return.

RDG's fare reform proposals https://bigplanbigchanges.co.uk/big-plans/easierfares certainly implied an afternoon peak as it saw a move to a structure of mixing and matching peak and off-peak single fares.

 

[jfollows]

Far more likely, with a future of single leg pricing, that peak fares apply everywhere is the afternoon peak. Indeed, it is the only way that single leg pricing can maintain revenue unless morning peak fares are priced higher than half the current anytime return.

RDG's fare reform proposals https://bigplanbigchanges.co.uk/big-plans/easierfares certainly implied an afternoon peak as it saw a move to a structure of mixing and matching peak and off-peak single fares.

Whilst this may well be the case, I have two observations:

1. Yet again, it seems to be about the railway doing what it wants to do for its own purposes, and putting the paying passenger last. Under the current environment, and without a change in direction from the top, that's probably understandable and inevitable, but it's still not good.
2. If it's done as it is in London, in which you pay as you go and know (in the vast majority of cases) that you're not being overcharged for doing so, then it's acceptable to me to be charged a premium for travel in the afternoon peak. If you're intimidated into buying a more expensive ticket in the morning because you might be travelling back in the afternoon peak, it's not acceptable, and seems to be where we are now - I don't see anything from Northern or others saying "don't worry, you can simply pay an excess on board if your plans change".

 

[JonathanH]

If you're intimidated into buying a more expensive ticket in the morning because you might be travelling back in the afternoon peak, it's not acceptable, and seems to be where we are now - I don't see anything from Northern or others saying "don't worry, you can simply pay an excess on board if your plans change".

Yes, that is a valid criticism of the current arrangements in places where there is currently an afternoon peak restriction. I can imagine that the current arrangements do discourage some discretionary travel.

 

[pnjman]

It needs binning. At my local station there are no off-peak trains into the city between the 15:13 and the 19:13, totally puts me off hoping on the train after working to go into town. Perhaps it makes sense going with the commuter-flow, but between those times they're carting fresh air into the city.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, that is a valid criticism of the current arrangements in places where there is currently an afternoon peak restriction. I can imagine that the current arrangements do discourage some discretionary travel.

Arguably, along with the convince benefit of removing the buying time and replacing it with just a tap, the automatic mix and max calculation is one of the greatest benefits of pay as you go because it does away with the necessity of excess fares.