Manchester Piccadilly lack of information and layout map

[sholland]

As title.
Our first ever visit last week and found it confusing.
Firstly, Network Rail do not include platforms 13 or 14 on theit layout map.
They can only be found on a wikipedia map.
Being strangers, trying to get from the main concourse to platform 13 as you approach the stairs, above you is a blue cube sign showing 10 on left and 11, on the right, just in front of the steps.
The sign for 13 and 14 is further along the platform, beyond these steps and I think has an arrow pointing diagonally in direction of upwards?? This of course is correct. Maybe positioned near to the lift?? We weren't sure if it meant to only use the lift?
I then realised to ignore the 10 and 11 sign as that referred to the platforms at lower level we were already on and not the stairs it is placed immediately in front of.

Also, after disembarking the Northern train from Lime Street, we could not find an information board on this platform for the TPE Doncaster service we wanted.
Next time we will know. But being in a hurry not to miss a connection, confusing signs was the last thing we wanted as we are in our 70s and can't hurry along like we used to!
As I say, being first timers here, it was not the best experience.

Off topic really, for my title heading, but still relevant. When I was planning our trip from Spalding to Liverpool, I also found that Doncaster had very poor station layout maps, provided by LNER and also National Rail. It did not show everything and if you zoomed in, it just became blurry when trying to get better detail. In any case, that one was more like a watercolour picture, not a proper draughtsman's map.
I was trying to research the layout of where we crossed the tracks to change trains from EMR to TPE and vice versa.
Rob

 

[Deafdoggie]

Numbers without any directional arrows always refer to the platform you are on. That applies to every UK station.
The Network Rail station map does show 13 & 14 with an arrow between platforms 11 & 12.
The main departure boards are on the main concourse.

 

[jfollows]

There are departure screens on the footbridge between platforms 13/14 and the rest of the station.

 

[jawr256]

The Platform 13/14 lounge is currently being refurbished so the travelators are closed and passengers are directed to the stairs at the end of platform 10/11.
This probably added to the OP's difficulty, although platform 13/14 can be confusing at any time.

 

[edwin_m]

Numbers without any directional arrows always refer to the platform you are on. That applies to every UK station.

Not necessarily. Last time I looked, Piccadilly had "13 and 14" in large figures above the exit from the concourse towards those platforms, which is between platforms 10 and 11.

There are also cubes with number but no arrows at concourse level above the stairs/escalators at Birmingham New Street.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Numbers without any directional arrows always refer to the platform you are on. That applies to every UK station.
The Network Rail station map does show 13 & 14 with an arrow between platforms 11 & 12.

You're right, but as maps go, it's perhaps not up there with the best. (See link below)...

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/2Z1ZAdCo9VfFOnA40LlnZj/b47269f7ffd9e6e4ebd2856c6bb95679/CCS0723844574-001_Manchester_Piccadilly_map_2023.pdf

 

[sholland]

Thanks all. I must admit, even then, on opening the map pdf I took a short time to see that it was just direction arrows given and not an actual layout diagram. That would have helped in getting some sense of direction, distance, size and relationship the platforms shown. With 13 & 14 being so busy, an overall layout would have been far better I think.
At least, next time (and we intend to visit Liverpool again later this year) we will have some idea of where to be if we have to change.
It was a shame, that being our first ever trip to Liverpool that both out and return both terminated at Piccadilly rather than where scheduled direct to, Lime Street.
At least we had full TPE delay repay refund given for Doncaster to Lime Street and return.
Rob

 

[Topological]

It probably does not help visitors that the aim is to keep people off platforms 13 and 14. They should probably just put signs that tell people to go up to the bridge level. A bit annoying for anyone who then finds their connection is back on the platform they just came from, but seasoned travellers would know that anyway. At least being told to go to the bridge would be a clear instruction.

The map makes it look like Fairfield Street and the taxi rank are easily accesed

 

[Killingworth]

A shame the OP hadn't been able to take the TPE Cleethorpes service for Doncaster at Lime Street to avoid the scrum and chaos that tends to prevail at Piccadilly 13/14 even at the best of times. With the current work on the overhead lounge area and the ramped travelator it's a nightmare even for those familiar with the station. I'd probably have waited for the next TPE train!

It can be hard to see the relevant signage as one avoids all the other people rushing around. Having missed my hourly train by 5 minutes last week I had the opportunity to observe and took the picture below. The signage is all there, but what I need can get lost amongst what everyone else may need. 13.30 is a fairly quiet time of day at Piccadilly.

 

[plugwash]

The Platform 13/14 lounge is currently being refurbished so the travelators are closed and passengers are directed to the stairs at the end of platform 10/11.
This probably added to the OP's difficulty, although platform 13/14 can be confusing at any time.

Agreed, the normal route to 13/14 is along the travelators and through the link bridge lounge, but the lounge and the second travelator are currently closed, as is the route behind the what I think is the former lost property office. So you have to wiggle around a bit to get to the steps to the overbridge.

They said there would be extra staff to help, but I don't know to what extent that was/is actually the case.

The map makes it look like Fairfield Street and the taxi rank are easily accesed

Yeah, it doesn't make it at all clear that they are on a different level.

And yeah, that map is awful, platforms 13/14 missing, as is most of the upper level and all of the lower two levels.

 

[Meole]

Having 2 or 3 trains on the same platform can be confusing for some as well.

 

[plugwash]

Manchester picadilly (the public part of it at least) essentially has four floors, though not all exist in all parts of the staiton.

Floor 0: Fairfield street and metrolink platforms.
Floor 1: Metrolink mezzanine (only exists at the west end of the station).
Floor 2: platform level and high level exits. Platforms 1-12 can be reached on the flat, platforms 13 and 14 require use of the overbridge.
Floor 3: overbridge and upper concourse (not connected to each other).

 

[sholland]

Post 9, Killingworth.

I had bought only tickets for EMR Spalding to Doncaster, then TPE to Lime Street.
Outbound ariving 1200 Lime Street (22 April) terminated at Piccadilly due to casualty on the track somewhere ahead
Likewise, the Lime Street to Doncaster, 10 something (25 April), was cancelled due to a points failure between there and Manchester, so we had to use the Northern trains to get to Piccadilly, then TPE onwards to Doncaster, destination Cleethorpes.

Unfortunately we just missed our 1219 connection due to not being able to walk fast, especially on stairs and alsomtrying to find our way around, We watched it pull out!.
Then the 1319 was delayed 30+ minutes, then cancelled completely and eventually we got the 1419 EMR to Doncaster, which not surprisingly was packed! I think my departure times are right? They were hourly.
Rob

 

[plugwash]

Also for future reference.

If you can manage stairs and are in a hurry, avoid the main concourse at Picadilly, just head straight for the overbridge. It's much less crowded than the concourse end and it links to all platforms without passing through any barriers.

 

[Killingworth]

Post 9, Killingworth.

I had bought only tickets for EMR Spalding to Doncaster, then TPE to Lime Street.
Outbound ariving 1200 Lime Street (22 April) terminated at Piccadilly due to casualty on the track somewhere ahead
Likewise, the Lime Street to Doncaster, 10 something (25 April), was cancelled due to a points failure between there and Manchester, so we had to use the Northern trains to get to Piccadilly, then TPE onwards to Doncaster, destination Cleethorpes.

Unfortunately we just missed our 1219 connection due to not being able to walk fast, especially on stairs and alsomtrying to find our way around, We watched it pull out!.
Then the 1319 was delayed 30+ minutes, then cancelled completely and eventually we got the 1419 EMR to Doncaster, which not surprisingly was packed! I think my departure times are right? They were hourly.
Rob

I was at Dore on the morning of the 25th where points at Dore West apparently failed to reset after a freight service had passed. All westbound services were held for an hour until cleared with consequent delays and cancellations across the north and beyond until about tea time. They were working on them during a 5 day blockade that finished yesterday.

It's possible you were caught up in the aftermath of 2 point failures, although I suspect it was the long tail of delays tracing back to this one! All the signalling technology is great when it works

 

[AlbertBeale]

My problem/puzzle when at M/C Piccadilly a while back, for the first time in years, was that I couldn't find a "normal" departure display - ie all the next pending dozen or so (at least) trains in chronological order, with platform, calling pattern, etc. I assumed an obvious thing like that was a default (by which I mean the most obvious thing before lesser information) at any major station.

 

[plugwash]

I don't think I've ever seen the sort of departure displays you see at the likes of Euston at Picadilly,

There are normal "departures" boatds like you see at most medium-sized stations with trains listed by destination, but no information on route, operator and usually no information on calling pattern on the platforms, I think there may also be some on the concourse.

In the main concourse there is a massive board sorted by destination that shows not just the final destination of trains, but the intermediate stops too. It's a bit of an unusual approach but it does work reasonably well if you just look for your actual destination (rather than the final destination of the train) on it.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I don't think I've ever seen the sort of departure displays you see at the likes of Euston at Picadilly,

There are normal "departures" boatds like you see at most medium-sized stations with trains listed by destination, but no information on route, operator and usually no information on calling pattern on the platforms, I think there may also be some on the concourse.

In the main concourse there is a massive board sorted by destination that shows not just the final destination of trains, but the intermediate stops too. It's a bit of an unusual approach but it does work reasonably well if you just look for your actual destination (rather than the final destination of the train) on it.

If by "normal" here you mean a list of "next fastest train to..." - I'm not used to seeing those as "normal"; they're not very helpfully informative, especially given ticket restrictions etc. Surely every major London terminal (even - just - Euston) has a list in time order of forthcoming departures with fairly full information on each train?

 

[plugwash]

Surely every major London terminal (even - just - Euston) has a list in time order of forthcoming departures with fairly full information on each train?

Yeah, Euston Certainly does, I think many of the other London terminals do too. I very rarely if-ever saw such displays outside of London though.

Below is a picture of what I would consider a "normal" departures board, there are a quite a lot of these around picadilly and I recall seeing similar boards at virtually every medium sized station (and even some pretty small ones).

It shows the times and final destinations of the trains but not operators or intermediate stops, Sometimes I "via" is shown but more often than not it isn't. I would agree that this gets seriously sub-optimal for destinations like crewe, sheffield and Liverpool where there are multiple operators, calling patterns and even totally different routes.

Below is a picture of the large board in the main concourse.

It's not exactly a "next fastest train" board. It will show multiple trains to the same destination if they are coming soon enough, and it does show operators. You just have to remember to look for your actual destination rather than the final destination of your train.

 

[Killingworth]

My picture in Post 9 shows how dependent we've become on our phones. Half, if not more, are looking at them or holding them ready.

At busier times linking the information found on different apps with rhat displayed at the station is challenging. The displays iin the upper circulation area for 13/14 are good, as long as you find them. There's no getting away from the fact that; travelling through 13/14 is a less than pleasant experience when trajns are all running to time. Too often they're not and it' quickly becomes unpleasant.

Current construction work adds complexity to mapping and signage. Adding any disability into this snd travelling by rail becomes the nightmare described by the OP.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Yeah, Euston Certainly does, I think many of the other London terminals do too. I very rarely if-ever saw such displays outside of London though.

Brighton has them. Many smaller stations have the equivalent information on a row of screens where there are only a handful of trains "pending" at any time.

And most overseas stations I'm familiar with have that same basic pattern - a list, in time order, of the next hour or so's departures, including stopping pattern (even if the stops are a scrolling list rather than static if there's otherwise not enough room in the display area of a reasonable number of trains.

Below is a picture of what I would consider a "normal" departures board, there are a quite a lot of these around picadilly and I recall seeing similar boards at virtually every medium sized station (and even some pretty small ones).

It shows the times and final destinations of the trains but not operators or intermediate stops, Sometimes I "via" is shown but more often than not it isn't. I would agree that this gets seriously sub-optimal for destinations like crewe, sheffield and Liverpool where there are multiple operators, calling patterns and even totally different routes.

I'd say it's seriously sub-optimal full stop. At the very least it needs a second line per service, with a scrolling stopping pattern. Incidentally, I didn't actually spot notices like these at Manchester when I was there, only the massive "next train to" list as you show below (which I found pretty useless - and anyway could barely read from a distance because there was so much information crammed in, in a small size print).

Below is a picture of the large board in the main concourse.

It's not exactly a "next fastest train" board. It will show multiple trains to the same destination if they are coming soon enough, and it does show operators. You just have to remember to look for your actual destination rather than the final destination of your train.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

You're right, but as maps go, it's perhaps not up there with the best. (See link below)...

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/2Z1ZAdCo9VfFOnA40LlnZj/b47269f7ffd9e6e4ebd2856c6bb95679/CCS0723844574-001_Manchester_Piccadilly_map_2023.pdf

I think that's one of the worse station maps of the bunch, it ignores the whole east side of the station!
I would've hoped they'd at least include 13/14 on it.

They've paid more attention to the retail space on a floor 90% will never go up to rather than the platforms that serve a bit over a third of all trains.

 

[The exile]

I don't think I've ever seen the sort of departure displays you see at the likes of Euston at Picadilly,

There are normal "departures" boatds like you see at most medium-sized stations with trains listed by destination, but no information on route, operator and usually no information on calling pattern on the platforms, I think there may also be some on the concourse.

In the main concourse there is a massive board sorted by destination that shows not just the final destination of trains, but the intermediate stops too. It's a bit of an unusual approach but it does work reasonably well if you just look for your actual destination (rather than the final destination of the train) on it.

It works reasonably well until you are looking for one of the smaller destinations that isn’t considered worthy of inclusion despite having a through train from Piccadilly. Can’t how remember which the station was….

 

[edwin_m]

I believe screens would still have a place even if everyone had a smartphone and the savvy to know what app to use - for immediate platform information it's always quicker to check a screen than to get a phone out, open the relevant app and enter the correct details.

My personal pet hate is displays that flip between next x trains and subsequent x trains. I find by the time I've worked out which screen is being displayed and where my train should be, it has flipped over to the other one. And if each one was displayed for longer it would annoy people when screen 2 was being displayed and they wanted details of a train in a few minutes. Either is especially annoying if some trains need two rows or there is disruption and the first part of the display is clogged up with trains that should have gone. The standard for a station like Piccadilly ought to be screens with more than 11 rows of information as pictured above.

 

[jfollows]

I think that's one of the worse station maps of the bunch, it ignores the whole east side of the station!
I would've hoped they'd at least include 13/14 on it.

They've paid more attention to the retail space on a floor 90% will never go up to rather than the platforms that serve a bit over a third of all trains.

It's a pretty horrible map, but don't you mean ”west side of the station"?

 

[The exile]

I believe screens would still have a place even if everyone had a smartphone and the savvy to know what app to use - for immediate platform information it's always quicker to check a screen than to get a phone out, open the relevant app and enter the correct details.

My personal pet hate is displays that flip between next x trains and subsequent x trains. I find by the time I've worked out which screen is being displayed and where my train should be, it has flipped over to the other one. And if each one was displayed for longer it would annoy people when screen 2 was being displayed and they wanted details of a train in a few minutes. Either is especially annoying if some trains need two rows or there is disruption and the first part of the display is clogged up with trains that should have gone. The standard for a station like Piccadilly ought to be screens with more than 11 rows of information as pictured above.

Where it’s a screen showing a listing of departures and those are frequent enough to warrant more than one “page” then there should be two screens - one only ever showing page one and the other scrolling through page 2 onwards, so that “immediate” departures and platforms can always be seen.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It's a pretty horrible map, but don't you mean ”west side of the station"?

Platform 13/14 and the bridge near them is to the (South-)East.
The more North-West side is the detailed part.

 

[snowball]

To be very pedantic, you're both wrong! The simplest reasonably accurate description would be to say that platforms 1-12 are to the north and 13-14 to the south.

In more detail, the tracks in 1-12 run something like ESE-WNW, with the buffer stops to the WNW.

The tracks in 13-14 are curved; at the Stockport end, they run more or less E-W; as you head out towards Oxford Road, you are going somewhat S of W.

 

[plugwash]

Where it’s a screen showing a listing of departures and those are frequent enough to warrant more than one “page” then there should be two screens - one only ever showing page one and the other scrolling through page 2 onwards, so that “immediate” departures and platforms can always be seen.

The ones at picadilly are in pairs and normally stay statically on pages 1 and 2.

But sometimes special announcements are put up which lead to annoying switching on them.