Manchester Piccadilly platforms 15, 16 pulled, but £72m nearby

[Parjon]

But that Manchester got a fraction of whats been spent on Leeds station alone which in the last decade has had has had a £17.3m Southern Entrance, £161m capacity program, and now a £46.1m program for the streets surrounding the station funded by Network Rail and delivered through the CA.

And how much did the rebuild of Piccadilly cost in 2002? £100m (£173m today). Victoria? (£50m) Salford Central?

Along with expecting to be able to complain about London's funding yet intolerant when the boot is on the other foot, any spend elsewhere is resented no matter how meagre.

Leeds development is at least connecting new areas. What did the Picc rebuild give? A concourse and entrance you thought at the time was impressive? Which is no longer good enough for you?

 

[YorksLad12]

But that Manchester got a fraction of whats been spent on Leeds station alone which in the last decade has had has had a £17.3m Southern Entrance, £161m capacity program, and now a £46.1m program for the streets surrounding the station funded by Network Rail and delivered through the CA.

Point of order: that £46.1m comes from the Transforming Cities Fund, not Network Rail. See https://leedscitystation.commonplac...ds-city-rail-station-improvements-plans/step1

Network Rail is separately funding essential maintenance work, happening at the same time, on Mill Goit underneath the station, so that they don't finish the first bit then have to dig it up again.

 

[WatcherZero]

And how much did the rebuild of Piccadilly cost in 2002? £100m (£173m today). Victoria? (£50m) Salford Central?

Along with expecting to be able to complain about London's funding yet intolerant when the boot is on the other foot, any spend elsewhere is resented no matter how meagre.

Leeds development is at least connecting new areas. What did the Picc rebuild give? A concourse and entrance you thought at the time was impressive? Which is no longer good enough for you?

Did you ever see the previous Piccadilly entrance? It was tiny, you had millions of people trying to use this set of doors squeezing past parked cars, the alternative was a footbridge from inside Mayfield. At the exact same time this new entrance and refurbishment of the canopy was being built for the Commonwealth Games Leeds had an art deco restoration, a new entrance, station canopy restoration and five extra platforms added under a renovation project literally called 'Leeds 1st' £165m (£285m today).
Your a hypocrite, complaining to a mirror that your reflection is being intolerant.

 

[childwallblues]

You think cancelling platforms 15&16 and instead spending pittance on turnbacks for trains coming from outside GM is not compromising Manchester?

You appear to be under the misapprehension that all transport infrastructure built in Manchester is primarily benefiting Manchester. Ask people in the Chilterns if their local HS2 infrastructure is benefitting them. What has the Ordsall Chord done for Manchester?

I promise you even with this £72 million the Castlefield Corridor will still be a mess, and Manchester's surban trains will also still be a mess thanks to prioritisation of long distance services from further afield, like Liverpool.

Liverpool services have always used the Castlefield Corridor since the closure of Manchester Central. Problems have arisen since the creation of the Windsor Link and the building of the Arena on Victoria Station meant the reduction in platforms there.

 

[The exile]

And while people on here and politicians in town halls try to outdo each other in finding reasons why money shouldn’t be spent elsewhere, the penny-pinchers in Whitehall are running their hands in glee that someone else is playing into their hands.

 

[td97]

also where is the mystery extra platform going at Vic

If you approach Victoria into P6 from Salford Central, there are surveyors markings on the wall of the station that seem to represent offsets for if an additional platform line was built. Just above Mirabel St.

 

[Parjon]

the penny-pinchers in Whitehall are running their hands in glee that someone else is playing into their hands.

No they're not. Outside of where they are interested in, nowhere else matters. They don't care how peed off we are. We don't matter. And our neighbours have very successfully encouraged, cultivated and made themselves an integral part of that set-up.

 

[The exile]

No they're not. Outside of where they are interested in, nowhere else matters. They don't care how peed off we are. We don't matter. And our neighbours have very successfully encouraged, cultivated and made themselves an integral part of that set-up.

What I was meaning is that if the provider of money is looking for reasons not to provide it, a situation where people from A expend their energy arguing why B shouldn’t have money spent on it and those from B argue that A shouldn’t have any money spent on it just means that the “powers that be” will agree with both and spend no money at all. Unfortunately some people in both A and B will then be delighted because the most important thing is to do down the other place.

 

[Parjon]

What I was meaning is that if the provider of money is looking for reasons not to provide it, a situation where people from A expend their energy arguing why B shouldn’t have money spent on it and those from B argue that A shouldn’t have any money spent on it just means that the “powers that be” will agree with both and spend no money at all. Unfortunately some people in both A and B will then be delighted because the most important thing is to do down the other place.

I can absolutely assure you that no amount of complaining about unfairness, inequity, risk to economy, or anything else has or will have any impact on them deciding to spend money on what they collectively want to spend our money on. The only change may be that they change argument, or start being more secretive. We saw both with HS2, for example.

GM authorities are now wrapped up with Whitehall so tightly that Whitehall is even determined to move in. And boy is GM up for grabbing that. They are becoming indistinguishable.

 

[josh-j]

In the words of a certain, in my opinion pretty much spot on railway engineer and podcaster, "abolish the treasury, folks".

No wonder everything seems to be falling apart in this country when investment is seen as a bad thing, apparently by people right across the political spectrum. The "no wonder politicians don't want to spend money on the railway, look how little gets done with that money" argument is flawed on two ways:
1. Even if it costs at lot, it can still be worth it. We need a really big increase in public transport capacity over the next couple of decades to meet decarbonisation commitments, and benefits extend far beyond fare revenue into the enablement of a better, healthier and more welp connected society.
2. The reason this stuff is so expensive is partly because the government refuses to organise the industry in a sane way, and at the same time keeps chopping and changing projects all over the place rather than making long term plans and sticking to them.

 

[Senex]

For a different way of looking at things see Switzerland's plans for 2035:

Ausbauschritt 2035

Das Parlament hat Projekte für 12,89 Milliarden Franken bewilligt, damit bis 2035 absehbare Engpässe auf verschiedenen Strecken beseitigt werden können. Zu den Projekten gehören unter anderem eine Direktverbindung Neuenburg–La-Chaux-de-Fonds, der Brüttener- und der Zimmerberg-Basistunnel II im...

www.bav.admin.ch

and costs appear at https://company.sbb.ch/de/ueber-die-sbb/projekte/nationale-programme/step-as-2035.html (There are English-language versions, but they don't appear to have as much information as the German or French pages.)

 

[tomuk]

In the words of a certain, in my opinion pretty much spot on railway engineer and podcaster, "abolish the treasury, folks".

I think I know who you are talking about and in his case the phrase a stopped clock is right twice a day applies.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In the words of a certain, in my opinion pretty much spot on railway engineer and podcaster, "abolish the treasury, folks".

No wonder everything seems to be falling apart in this country when investment is seen as a bad thing, apparently by people right across the political spectrum. The "no wonder politicians don't want to spend money on the railway, look how little gets done with that money" argument is flawed on two ways:
1. Even if it costs at lot, it can still be worth it. We need a really big increase in public transport capacity over the next couple of decades to meet decarbonisation commitments, and benefits extend far beyond fare revenue into the enablement of a better, healthier and more welp connected society.
2. The reason this stuff is so expensive is partly because the government refuses to organise the industry in a sane way, and at the same time keeps chopping and changing projects all over the place rather than making long term plans and sticking to them.

I think £96 billion is the amount reserved for HS2 and NPR (which includes TRU) in the current plans.
That's a huge investment in rail, much of it in the north.
Yes, the plans are too vague to work out the impact on current services, and will take maybe 15-20 years to deliver, but they are there.
DfT are not going to spend large sums on altering the existing network when the new lines will change the entire network around Manchester.

The other issue is that the railway seemingly finds it impossible to deliver major projects to time and budget (eg WCRM, Crossrail, electrification, HS2).
Not always the railway's fault, but they get most of the blame nevertheless.
The Treasury (any government) simply does not trust the railway to deliver, hence the hand-to-mouth piecemeal plans, and the micromanagement.

 

[Dspatula]

Increased the paths available for local trains on the Stockport corridor by diverting TPE services away from the Piccadilly “throat”… e.g. doubling the Buxton frequency… that kind of thing?

Cut to one train an hour and also last I checked Buxton wasn't in Greater Manchester.

If Manchester will still be a mess then a lot of the reasons for that are to do with the messy combination of through services (especially to the airport/ castlefield)

I’ve said this before but look at other cities, e.g. the West Midlands doesn’t suffocate local capacity by trying to run through Birmingham Airport services from Walsall/ Bromsgrove… or through University services from Coventry/ Wolverhampton… They make the most of capacity… whereas the north west of England would rather keep trying to run unrealistic service patterns for the sake of a tiny number of people who want to get from Stockport to Bolton or from Southport to Castlefield…

Stockport to Bolton trains were all cut. The Southport train still goes to Castlefield because people in Southport complained, again last I checked Southport wasn't in Greater Manchester.

Manchester's railways are a mess because places outside Manchester insist that their train needs to go to Piccadilly. You could improve things vastly by removing though trains from Liverpool to Sheffield, ending the Middlesbrough train at Victoria and cutting the Barrow service, but I can be pretty sure people from outside Manchester would be quite upset about it.

 

[ThrowAway10101]

Did you ever see the previous Piccadilly entrance? It was tiny, you had millions of people trying to use this set of doors squeezing past parked cars, the alternative was a footbridge from inside Mayfield. At the exact same time this new entrance and refurbishment of the canopy was being built for the Commonwealth Games Leeds had an art deco restoration, a new entrance, station canopy restoration and five extra platforms added under a renovation project literally called 'Leeds 1st' £165m (£285m today).
Your a hypocrite, complaining to a mirror that your reflection is being intolerant.

Piccadilly looked like that in the past?? Then the renovation was well-needed.

 

[AndrewE]

I think £96 billion is the amount reserved for HS2 and NPR (which includes TRU) in the current plans.
That's a huge investment in rail, much of it in the north.

er, how much of HS2 is actually in the North? I thought it was stopping at Crewe now. And how much of NPR is actually committed? Nothing for full electrification via Standedge as far as I know.

Yes, the plans are too vague to work out the impact on current services, and will take maybe 15-20 years to deliver, but they are there.
DfT are not going to spend large sums on altering the existing network when the new lines will change the entire network around Manchester.

Fair enough, but isn't HS2 to Manchester paused? Which sounds like a very good excuse to not spend on what is needed for the foreseeable...

The other issue is that the railway seemingly finds it impossible to deliver major projects to time and budget (eg WCRM, Crossrail, electrification, HS2).
Not always the railway's fault, but they get most of the blame nevertheless.
The Treasury (any government) simply does not trust the railway to deliver, hence the hand-to-mouth piecemeal plans, and the micromanagement.

Sadly all-too-true, I wonder why the railway has such problems? No corporate memory? too many consultants and contractors being given jobs they have no experience for? No continuity in design offices - let alone on-the-ground staff?
(Did I read that the GWR electrification was a shambles because the foundations and steelwork calculations were out by a factor of 3? That is perfectly believable given that original WCML gantries are still in use, while the GWR stuff looks as though it was designed to moor battleships or cruise liners to!)

 

[stevieinselby]

er, how much of HS2 is actually in the North? I thought it was stopping at Crewe now.

TBH, it doesn't really matter how much is in the north – the point is that it serves the north. Where HS2 is and where it serves are different – the home counties between London and Birmingham have the line running through them but will see fewer benefits than the people living across the north – who often beyond the extent of the new line, but will see some of the biggest reductions in journey times. The main reason the line needs to reach Manchester is because Piccadilly can't accommodate the extra trains, more than the speed for the last few miles.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder to please stick to the thread title in this thread; feel free to create a new thread (if there isn't one already) if you wish to discuss anything else

For any posts of a speculative nature, please use the Speculative Discussion section. Thanks

 

[snowball]

er, how much of HS2 is actually in the North? I thought it was stopping at Crewe now. And how much of NPR is actually committed? Nothing for full electrification via Standedge as far as I know.

Fair enough, but isn't HS2 to Manchester paused? Which sounds like a very good excuse to not spend on what is needed for the foreseeable...

Construction of HS2 from the Midlands to Crewe is being paused for supposedly two years but the parliamentary bill to give legal powers to Crewe-Manchester is continuing its progress through parliament, and the government has repeatedly restated that is its intention to get to Manchester eventually.

All of NPR is still at an early stage with room for policy changes.

 

[AndrewE]

TBH, it doesn't really matter how much is in the north – the point is that it serves the north. Where HS2 is and where it serves are different – the home counties between London and Birmingham have the line running through them but will see fewer benefits than the people living across the north – who often beyond the extent of the new line, but will see some of the biggest reductions in journey times. The main reason the line needs to reach Manchester is because Piccadilly can't accommodate the extra trains, more than the speed for the last few miles.

Construction of HS2 from the Midlands to Crewe is being paused for supposedly two years but the parliamentary bill to give legal powers to Crewe-Manchester is continuing its progress through parliament, and the government has repeatedly restated that is its intention to get to Manchester eventually.

All of NPR is still at an early stage with room for policy changes.

Exactly my point. "Paused for 2 years" - then start re-designing and procuring again. So "serving the north" with "the biggest reductions in journey times" has now slipped to become "Extra capacity south of Brum and a gain in journey time half of what it could have been had the project really been delivered for the benefit of the UK as a whole."

The amount of work already done south of Crewe does reassure me that it will get built eventually, though. I just wonder whether I shall live to see it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly my point. "Paused for 2 years" - then start re-designing and procuring again. So "serving the north" with "the biggest reductions in journey times" has now slipped to become "Extra capacity south of Brum and a gain in journey time half of what it could have been had the project really been delivered for the benefit of the UK as a whole."

The amount of work already done south of Crewe does reassure me that it will get built eventually, though. I just wonder whether I shall live to see it?

To me it's impossible to say at the moment because barring any major scandals on that side there is almost certain to be a change of Government within two years. Thus anything the present Government says with regard to the long term can basically be ignored - we simply do not know what will happen.

(I wish they'd just get on with it and call a GE now to be honest)

 

[Old Yard Dog]

The whole point of building the Ordsall curve was to provide a direct link between Rochdale, Halifax & Bradford and Manchester Piccadilly & Airport. This hasn't happened because they are not building P15/16 and because TPE are hogging Ordsall chord paths for their Leeds - Manchester Airport trains when these could just as easily go via Guide Bridge and reverse at MP.

 

[YorksLad12]

The whole point of building the Ordsall curve was to provide a direct link between Rochdale, Halifax & Bradford and Manchester Piccadilly & Airport. This hasn't happened because they are not building P15/16 and because TPE are hogging Ordsall chord paths for their Leeds - Manchester Airport trains when these could just as easily go via Guide Bridge and reverse at MP.

Really? I thought the whole point was to avoid blocking the throat at Piccadilly, providing connections between Victoria and Piccadilly *and* connecting Rochdale, Halifax & Bradford to Manchester Airport...