Manchester Recovery Taskforce (timetable) consultation

[30907]

So the biggest conflict (or am I wrong to think that*) is also the most important flow? That makes untangling the knot a political mess. ...

Basically I'm wondering whether it's better to cut Bolton-Piccadilly from 4tph to 2tph and provide connections from Victoria to Piccadilly via the Ordsall Chord instead.

Would it be more palatable if there were platforms on the Castlefield (and Chat Moss) tracks at Salford C, To reduce the double-back? But then are people (eg Atherton line) having to play pot luck as to where they change for the Deansgate route?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Would it be more palatable if there were platforms on the Castlefield (and Chat Moss) tracks at Salford C, To reduce the double-back? But then are people (eg Atherton line) having to play pot luck as to where they change for the Deansgate route?

Just to be a smart-alec, it might be worth noting that 'C' isn't a terribly useful abbreviation when trying to distinguish between Crescent and Central stations.

 

[Rhydgaled]

That's the whole of Manchester Stations. But from rough observations that probably splits around 60% towards Castlefield, 40% towards Victoria.

Thanks; it's good to try and understand these issues.

But then are people (eg Atherton line) having to play pot luck as to where they change for the Deansgate route?

Yes, I suppose there would be a degree of that. No easy answers it seems.

 

[BrianW]

Ah, now I see; everything from Atherton already goes to Victoria, so if you want Piccadilly you need to change at Salford Crescent or double-back from Victoria on an Ordsall Chord service (or walk, or use Metrolink).


So the biggest conflict (or am I wrong to think that*) is also the most important flow? That makes untangling the knot a political mess.

* I'm assuming that cutting Bolton-Piccadilly from 4tph to 2tph and providing 2tph extra from Victoria to Piccadilly via the Ordsall Chord instead would be an improvement for reliability/punctuality/resiliance, but I could be wrong. Ultimately the frequency of trains through Castlefield remains the same, but Chat Moss to Victoria services are not as impeeded. Bolton-Piccadilly passengers would however need to change at Victoria.


Bolton to Manchester in general or to Piccadilly in particular?

I see that the Secretary of State gave some attention to the Corridor and associated matters at the Transport Committee meeting of 2 Feb (eg in response to the MP for Buxton!):
Qs 35-38 are particularly related:

https://committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/1649/html/

 

[peters]

I see that the Secretary of State gave some attention to the Corridor and associated matters at the Transport Committee meeting of 2 Feb (eg in response to the MP for Buxton!):
Qs 35-38 are particularly related:

https://committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/1649/html/

The consultation pdf it asks the question
"Question 3: On the basis of these results, which is your preferred option?"

In the case of the Buxton MP representing his constituents I can understand him wanting to oppose one option, rather than supporting one of the other two options. However, I wonder whether the wording of that question might encourage some people to do eeny, meeny, miny, moe with two options that they find acceptable rather than saying which one they think it unacceptable and that they think the other two are equally acceptable.

 

[thealexweb]

A real mixed bag for Bolton.

+ The Cumbria services returns.
+ The Scotland services go hourly again for the first time since 2013.

- Loss of through routes to South Manchester, either Hazel or Alderley Edge will be lost no? What happened to DfT mandating Bolton to Stockport being every 30 minutes?

 

[Ianno87]

A real mixed bag for Bolton.

+ The Cumbria services returns.
+ The Scotland services go hourly again for the first time since 2013.

- Loss of through routes to South Manchester, either Hazel or Alderley Edge will be lost no? What happened to DfT mandating Bolton to Stockport being every 30 minutes?

Depending on the option the 4tph from Bolton via Castlefield is either:

-4 x Airport
-2 x Airport, 2 x Hazel Grove
-2 x Airport, 2 x Alderley Edge

I think what DfT mandated in previous franchises (2tph Bolton-Stockport) can be considered superseded with a more general aim of "make the overall best use of existing infrastructure around Manchester". Otherwise you end up with a lot of tails wagging dogs.

 

[thealexweb]

Depending on the option the 4tph from Bolton via Castlefield is either:

-4 x Airport
-2 x Airport, 2 x Hazel Grove
-2 x Airport, 2 x Alderley Edge

I think what DfT mandated in previous franchises (2tph Bolton-Stockport) can be considered superseded with a more general aim of "make the overall best use of existing infrastructure around Manchester". Otherwise you end up with a lot of tails wagging dogs.

What crazy times we live in. When there's a shortage of paths to the Airport and Bolton may end up with a lot of them without even asking. A 50:50 split Airport/Stockport and beyond would be lovely if it could be accommodated …

 

[Ianno87]

What crazy times we live in. When there's a shortage of paths to the Airport and Bolton may end up with a lot of them without even asking. A 50:50 split Airport/Stockport and beyond would be lovely if it could be accommodated …

As a somebody who has been a user of the Bolton corridor all his life, my selfish preference would be the 50/50 split. Classic trade off between what is good for performance and what matches passenger demand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

- Loss of through routes to South Manchester, either Hazel or Alderley Edge will be lost no? What happened to DfT mandating Bolton to Stockport being every 30 minutes?

Same platform change, no?

 

[Ianno87]

Same platform change, no?

Provided you specifically get on the Liverpool-Cleethorpes/Nottingham service, yes.

 

[Greybeard33]

- Loss of through routes to South Manchester, either Hazel or Alderley Edge will be lost no? What happened to DfT mandating Bolton to Stockport being every 30 minutes?

Still there in Options A and B. You can respond to the consultation and lobby for one of those.

 

[peters]

- Loss of through routes to South Manchester, either Hazel or Alderley Edge will be lost no? What happened to DfT mandating Bolton to Stockport being every 30 minutes?

I think the whole point of the consultation is not everything DfT mandated can be accommodated and even when only some of what DfT mandated actually being implemented the service is too unreliable.

I've just looked at the Oxford Road to Stockport train times in RTT for April and I'm not surprised DfT have proposed changes. The southbound departures from Oxford Road are
xx:33 from Southport to Alderley Edge
xx:38 from Liverpool to Norwich
xx:42 from Blackpool to Hazel Grove

So 3 services in 11 minutes and then nothing for 49 minutes!

A half-hourly Liverpool to Sheffield via Warrington service alone would probably be more useful than the current mess, as at least it would be consistent even if it meant fewer direct services.

 

[peters]

Still there in Options A and B. You can respond to the consultation and lobby for one of those.

+ The Cumbria services returns.
+ The Scotland services go hourly again for the first time since 2013.

Option A offers the airport to Cumbria and airport to Scotland services running via Bolton but doesn't guarantee nice intervals between services, option C offers that but at the expense of through services to Stockport, while option B sees the Cumbria service continuing to run via Wigan, as well as peak time services to/from Hazel Grove avoiding Bolton. If you want a nice half-hourly Lancaster to Manchester Airport via Bolton service and a nice half-hourly Bolton to Stockport service then it's not going to happen under any option.

 

[thealexweb]

Same platform change, no?

Yes but it's platform 13/14 though. No sane person would willingly want to face the prospect of that for years to come. For me and so many others it's either direct train or car for me.

 

[Philip]

Yes but it's platform 13/14 though. No sane person would willingly want to face the prospect of that for years to come. For me and so many others it's either direct train or car for me.

I would think reliability would probably be better overall on the Bolton route if all trains south of Manchester Picc went to the Airport, rather than some crossing the throat to get to Stockport.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes but it's platform 13/14 though. No sane person would willingly want to face the prospect of that for years to come. For me and so many others it's either direct train or car for me.

I would think reliability would probably be better overall on the Bolton route if all trains south of Manchester Picc went to the Airport, rather than some crossing the throat to get to Stockport.

Most passengers between Bolton and Stockport would likely be satisfied with a change to the main shed at Piccadilly anyway, especially if it is 4tph connecting into 10+tph, so minimal waiting time either way.

For longer distance journeys, changing at Stockport instead of Piccadilly is generally more attractive, but should not be a dog-wagging tail.

 

[Greybeard33]

Yes but it's platform 13/14 though. No sane person would willingly want to face the prospect of that for years to come. For me and so many others it's either direct train or car for me.

In Option C the change can be made at Oxford Road rather than Piccadilly. 2tph to Stockport, same platform.

 

[xtpe]

A real mixed bag for Bolton.

+ The Cumbria services returns.
+ The Scotland services go hourly again for the first time since 2013.

- Loss of through routes to South Manchester, either Hazel or Alderley Edge will be lost no? What happened to DfT mandating Bolton to Stockport being every 30 minutes?

I don't think the Cumbria service will return now as i have read that planning has got a step closer to opening a station at Goldbourne and that is the only service that goes that way at present, Andy Burnam has already mentioned about it getting a direct service to the airport or cumbria as a benefit of it reopening

 

[PTR 444]

I don't think the Cumbria service will return now as i have read that planning has got a step closer to opening a station at Goldbourne and that is the only service that goes that way at present, Andy Burnam has already mentioned about it getting a direct service to the airport or cumbria as a benefit of it reopening

It should be noted that none of the options in the recovery taskforce have any services running via Golborne off-peak. I’m not sure that a dedicated all-day service to serve such a new station from Manchester could be pathed on the Chat Moss amongst the proposed 5tph without conflict at Ordsall Lane.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It should be noted that none of the options in the recovery taskforce have any services running via Golborne off-peak. I’m not sure that a dedicated all-day service to serve such a new station from Manchester could be pathed on the Chat Moss amongst the proposed 5tph without conflict at Ordsall Lane.

Frequent services via Golborne are a post-electrification thing anyway (and I think came about *because of* the electrification?) - in the 1997 timetable the Cumbria services did run via Wigan but that was via Bolton and Westhoughton, not Golborne.

Here's an article on the station:

Multi-million pound plans to build railway station in Golborne to be considered

The project is part of a £69.5m scheme to improve transport links around the region

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

I don't know what site is being considered, but I guess it'll be in Golborne itself on the WCML proper (possibly loops?) rather than the one that's on the "chord"[1] that I think is actually Lowton and would be a bit useless because it's so close to Newton le Willows and has no significant settlement near to it. Which means more options to serve it, I guess.

[1] If I recall, not really a chord but the original route of the WCML which has since been bypassed in the manner of Colwich.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't think the Cumbria service will return now as i have read that planning has got a step closer to opening a station at Goldbourne and that is the only service that goes that way at present, Andy Burnam has already mentioned about it getting a direct service to the airport or cumbria as a benefit of it reopening

It would be, frankly, perverse to design the entirely of the Manchester and North West timetables around serving Golborne Station.

 

[daodao]

It should be noted that none of the options in the recovery taskforce have any services running via Golborne off-peak. I’m not sure that a dedicated all-day service to serve such a new station from Manchester could be pathed on the Chat Moss amongst the proposed 5tph without conflict at Ordsall Lane.

I don't see how a service calling at a re-opened Golborne station on the WCML could be accommodated within any of the 3 options, yet alone the effect on existing WCML passenger and freight services. A station could be re-opened at the former Kenyon Junction site as Golborne Parkway on the Chat Moss line itself, with existing services calling there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see how a service calling at a re-opened Golborne station on the WCML could be accommodated within any of the 3 options, yet alone the effect on existing WCML passenger and freight services. A station could be re-opened at the former Kenyon Junction site as Golborne Parkway on the Chat Moss line itself, with existing services calling there.

I can't really see any point in that because if you're going to get in the car you might as well go to Newton le Willows.

 

[Ianno87]

I can't really see any point in that because if you're going to get in the car you might as well go to Newton le Willows.

It's only a 5 minute drive from Golborne Station to Newton le Willows!

A cheaper solution would be a bigger car park at N-le-W and/or expanding the Greater Manchester ticketing area to include N-le-W.

Doing a Google Journey plan to central Manchester routinely gives car or bus to N-le-W then train as a much faster option than any other route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's only a 5 minute drive from Golborne Station to Newton le Willows!

It is, though if you use that reason not to open a station then a lot of recent new openings wouldn't have happened. There is benefit from opening a station that is within walking range of a lot of people even if there is one 5 minutes' drive away, though less so for reorganising a load of services for it which means this one probably won't happen.

That's why there'd be a point in opening a Golborne station actually in Golborne, but not one in Lowton as there's basically nothing there and it'd just be a Parkway which NlW can already do.

 

[peters]

The complaints from one rail user's group that many were predicting have emerged

A plan to cut one of Southport’s two rail links with Manchester city centre could have a devastating effect on the town’s economy, business leaders claim.

Local people and businesses are being urged to makes their voices heard in a public consultation on plans to reduce rail congestion in Manchester. It is being overseen by the Manchester Rail Task Force, led by the Department for Transport and Network Rail.

It is looking at three options to ease the pressure on Manchester city centre rail capacity. All three options would see the axing of the direct from Southport to Deansgate, Oxford Rd and Piccadilly in the south of the city centre.

A service to Manchester Victoria, in the north of the city centre would remain. However, around two-thirds of regular commuters from Southport rely on the south side service which offers access to businesses, hospitals and onward connections to multiple other destinations, including Manchester Airport.

Direct rail connectivity with Manchester and Liverpool are seen as critical to Southport’s economic wellbeing. Organisations such as Southport BID are looking to attract more business and more people to come to the town. The loss of such a vital transport link would be seen as a huge blow.

Now Ormskirk, Preston and Southport Travellers Association (OPSTA), backed by the BID, is pushing back on the plans. This is not the first time this battle has been fought. A direct service between Southport and Manchester Airport, calling at Piccadilly, was withdrawn in May 2018.

However, thanks to the efforts of OPSTA, a a full service to Manchester Piccadilly was reinstated in December 2019. It included more services between Southport and Wigan, Bolton and Manchester Victoria (north) and Piccadilly (south). Now the route is under threat again.

OPSTA chair Alan Fantom told LBN: “Many highly remunerated professionals make the daily journey from Southport to the south side of Manchester, as do many health and key workers. That’s why this route had far more value than the route to Manchester Victoria.

“There is also the onward connections to other places such as Manchester Airport and to other parts of the country. It would be a double-hit. The professionals who live in Southport and work in Manchester make a big contribution to our economy. How can we retain them, and attract more people to come and live here, if we cut connectivity.

“It also poses a risk to our visitor economy, people who want to visit Southport from other parts of the country would likely look to come via Piccadilly. Cutting the service would remove that option. There are other viable options for reducing congestion without having to cut this service.”

According to OPSTA, the short-term axing of the route in 2018 caused much anxiety and stress for commuters. Many people struggled to get to work on time using alternative routes and, in some cases, had to give up their jobs.

Southport BID chief executive Rachel Fitzgerald is leading a drive to rethink and expand Southport’s economy. She would like to encourage the growth of other sectors such as professional services and digital so the town was less reliant on leisure and hospitality.

She is very concerned about the possibility of losing one of the rail links with central Manchester. She said: “Good connectivity is absolutely critical to growing Southport’s economy in the years to come.

“We want to attract young professionals to come and live in the town, either taking advantage of opportunities here or choosing a great quality of life while commuting to cities such as Liverpool and Manchester.

“I think we all need to make our voices heard on this. People living in Southport now rely on this service to get to and from their jobs. I would urge as many people as possible to contribute to the public consultation.

Southport to Manchester rail link facing the axe - Liverpool Business News

Rail campaigners and Southport BID are resisting proposals to cut the town’s direct rail link to Manchester Piccadilly which they claim would be a huge economic blow. Tony McDonough reports […]

lbndaily.co.uk

I'd like to hear what the 'viable alternatives' are and hear actual case studies about these people who they claim had to give up their jobs because of Southport losing a direct link to Piccadilly. I would suggest whenever there's a timetable recast people might reconsider their commute, even if no direct services are lost. For example, if direct trains arrive at 08:15 and 08:45 pre-recast then the latter might work nicely if you have to start at 9am. However, if they change to 08:25 and 08:55 then it might mean arriving 20 minutes earlier every day, then if the evening times are less favourable as well maybe you'd reconsider your commute.

 

[Ianno87]

It is, though if you use that reason not to open a station then a lot of recent new openings wouldn't have happened. There is benefit from opening a station that is within walking range of a lot of people even if there is one 5 minutes' drive away, though less so for reorganising a load of services for it which means this one probably won't happen.

That's why there'd be a point in opening a Golborne station actually in Golborne, but not one in Lowton as there's basically nothing there and it'd just be a Parkway which NlW can already do.

Alternative would be a parkway station somewhere in the Glazebury area to pick up the south side of Leigh. But the railway is probably just slightly too far south to do this properly (if the railway were closer to the alignment of the East Lancs Road, it'd be a "No brainer")

 

[AMD]

I don't know what site is being considered, but I guess it'll be in Golborne itself on the WCML proper (possibly loops?) rather than the one that's on the "chord"[1] that I think is actually Lowton and would be a bit useless because it's so close to Newton le Willows and has no significant settlement near to it. Which means more options to serve it, I guess.

It'll be around the site of the original Golborne station - there's no chance of the old Lowton station being reopened as it won't meet modern standards as it's a narrow site with curved platforms, limited space to extend the platform and right on top of Lowton junction which planners and signal system designers don't like.

Has anyone considered that the likely outcome will probably be a mix of the options? Think back to 2016 when Northern were getting public opinion on seats A,B and C for the new trains......

 

[daodao]

Has anyone considered that the likely outcome will probably be a mix of the options? Think back to 2016 when Northern were getting public opinion on seats A,B and C for the new trains......

No suitable service that could call at a new Golborne station is included in option A. Options B and C just include a peak only service from Wigan North Western to Hazel Grove via the Chat Moss line. It wouldn't be worth re-opening a station just for that proposed service. I am of the view that there shouldn't be any peak hour variations in the final option that is chosen, as they confuse the travelling public, complicate service patterns unnecessarily and are likely to cause operational issues.