Manchester to Middlesborough

[zac embleton]

has this service always existed?
also has it always been considered a Transpennine Express route?

 

[higthomas]

Define always?
It wouldn't have been considered "Transpennine Express" pre-privitisation, given such a thing didn't exist back then.

It definitely existed in 2006 see https://web.archive.org/web/2006020....co.uk:80/pdfs/Timetables/Dec05_North_web.pdf
It didn't seem to exist in the 1940s/50s http://timetableworld.com/

 

[daikilo]

Well, in at least the 1970s, there was no direct service, and probably required at least 2 changes (Selby or York and Darlington).

Transpennine Express is the current name of the TOC.

 

[zac embleton]

thats interesting thankyou for that because by all accounts the Liverpool to Newcastle (later Sunderland 1994 to 2004) before reverting back to Newcastle, Liverpool to York (now Scarborough since '82) and Manchester to Hull are quite established also didnt the Manchester to Hull services used to start in Liverpool?

 

[mikeg]

Definitely hasn't always existed though I seem to remember being age 4 changing at Manchester Pic for Blackpool North from Thirsk. Of course I could have forgotten an extra change at York and the train may not have come from Middlesbrough. Incidentally, I'd be interested if anyone has some old timetables from this area and era. I found under my bed of all places a few years ago an Arriva Trains Northern 'transpennine express' time table, I believe that the current TPE service pattern dates back to the Arriva Northern/Arriva North East/Northern Spirit (possibly a little too early?) days.

 

[ainsworth74]

Incidentally, I'd be interested if anyone has some old timetables from this area and era.

Not knowing how old you are now we wouldn't be able to work out what era it would have been when you were four

 

[ainsworth74]

Looking at my BR timetable for May - October 1989 Middlesbrough appears on the following tables within it:

• 26 which shows services on the ECML from London to Scotland (including principle connections)
• 41 Saltburn to Darlington and Bishop Auckland
• 42 Middlesbrough to Whitby
• 43 Middlesbrough and Darlington to Hartlepool, Sunderand and Newcastle

Indeed looking at surrounding tables you come across table 39 which appears to be a group of services (minus Middlesbrough) of what would become North TPE a decade or so later. It includes a handy map I have attached below:



(click to make it bigger!)

 

[Dr Hoo]

The Railfuture book 'Britain's Growing Railway' lists Northallerton-Middlesbrough (and Yarm station) as opening on 20 February 1996.

 

[ainsworth74]

The Railfuture book 'Britain's Growing Railway' lists Northallerton-Middlesbrough (and Yarm station) as opening on 20 February 1996.

Well I mean the line had been there since 1850s but I doubt it saw much in the way of passenger usage since the early 1960s when the remaining stations on it closed.

 

[Darandio]

Well I mean the line had been there since 1850s but I doubt it saw much in the way of passenger usage since the early 1960s when the remaining stations on it closed.

I cannot think of much at all. Did the Cleveland Executive? Cannot think of anything else regularly booked.

 

[ainsworth74]

I cannot think of much at all. Did the Cleveland Executive? Cannot think of anything else regularly booked.

Initially I actually thought that it didn't (I did look this afternoon when I was checking what tables Middlesbrough appeared in) but I mustn't have looked very closely because by my reading of the timetable it would appear that the up Cleveland Executive goes via what would now be Yarm but the down goes via Darlington interestingly. Which means that the down reverses twice! Once at Darlington and once at Middlesbrough. Must have been an interminable journey to Sunderland...

I've attached a scan of the relevant page of the timetable as a pdf (sorry but you'll need to rotate it anti-clockwise on your pdf reader unless you like rotating your monitor or head ). The Cleveland Executive is highlighted in yellow.

 

[Bevan Price]

Historically, the closest to Middlesbrough was one per day (each way) Liverpool to Newcastle via Stockton, Hartlepool & Sunderland. Would have to check old timetables to see when it finished, but certainly continued into at least the 1960s.

Otherwise, Saltburn once had a few summer saturday services via Middlesbrough, but again would have to check old timetables for details,

 

[30907]

The Northallerton-Eaglescliffe section in 1958 (which I suspect will do as proxy for 1923-1965 or so!) had a handful of down daytime services including the Liverpool mentioned, a London and several from Leeds or York. All but one headed for the Durham Coast line, the exception being a morning Leeds-middlesbrough.
In the early 70s IIRC there was one daytime dmu south to York and back, and a Newcastle sleeper. Without checking, ISTR the dmu came from Newcastle too.
So Middlesbrough was basically ignored by long distance trains pre the Trans Pennine revolution (and I remember thinking at the time an hourly train was over generous....ah well!)

 

[Marton]

Why can’t people spell Middlesbrough?

 

[FQTV]

Initially I actually thought that it didn't (I did look this afternoon when I was checking what tables Middlesbrough appeared in) but I mustn't have looked very closely because by my reading of the timetable it would appear that the up Cleveland Executive goes via what would now be Yarm but the down goes via Darlington interestingly. Which means that the down reverses twice! Once at Darlington and once at Middlesbrough. Must have been an interminable journey to Sunderland...

I've attached a scan of the relevant page of the timetable as a pdf (sorry but you'll need to rotate it anti-clockwise on your pdf reader unless you like rotating your monitor or head ). The Cleveland Executive is highlighted in yellow.

Interesting that the Eaglescliffe call isn't mentioned in that timetable. From memory it was something like 06:50 on the up.

Why can’t people spell Middlesbrough?

It's a constant frustration. As bad as Teeside, wouldn't you agree, Martin?

 

[ainsworth74]

Interesting that the Eaglescliffe call isn't mentioned in that timetable. From memory it was something like 06:50 on the up.

I'm reasonably certain they left it out of table 26 for space considerations. I'm also reasonably certain that it does appear in one of the local tables. I mean I could go and check. But the timetable is upstairs and I'm downstairs

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes, as I suspected, the details of the local calls appear in tables 41 and 43. The up Cleveland Executive called at pick up only at Thornaby and Eaglescliffe at 0635 and 0643 respectively. Whilst the down called set down only at 1935 and 1943 respectively.

 

[Bevan Price]

Why can’t people spell Middlesbrough?

Possibly because the ending "-brough" is less common than "-borough", as in Bromborough, Knaresborough, Loughborough, etc ?

Maybe they should have retained one of the old spellings such as Middelburg, or Midelesburc ?

 

[FQTV]

Yes, as I suspected, the details of the local calls appear in tables 41 and 43. The up Cleveland Executive called at pick up only at Thornaby and Eaglescliffe at 0635 and 0643 respectively. Whilst the down called set down only at 1935 and 1943 respectively.

I’m grateful for your efforts and exertions, especially in this weather .

Possibly because the ending "-brough" is less common than "-borough", as in Bromborough, Knaresborough, Loughborough, etc ?

Maybe they should have retained one of the old spellings such as Middelburg, or Midelesburc ?

Or Port Darlington?!

 

[xotGD]

'Small town in Yorkshire' is easier to spell.

 

[30907]

Why can’t people spell Middlesbrough?

How did I miss that?

 

[Bevan Price]

The Summer timetables for 1958 & 1959 show a summer saturday train from Saltburn to Manchester Exchange, which called at Middlesbrough. There was no equivalent train from Manchester, just a train that started from Leeds (City)

 

[Ianigsy]

Why can’t people spell Middlesbrough?

Because Middlesbrough football supporters don't chant "Come on Brough"?

 

[Taunton]

Before the mid-1960s some of the Liverpool trains being discussed not only went via Stockton and the coast line, but also routed from Leeds via Harrogate and Ripon, therefore not touching the ECML at all (there was also at least one Kings Cross service that did the same.

Teesside's problem is two comparably-sized (other opinions are available) and very close major towns which cannot both be served by trains from the south or east. Switzerland would do it every hour with a 2 minute reversal, but we are not Switzerland. Stockton, Hartlepool and Sunderland together outweigh Middlesbrough, and it's operationally convenient to terminate in Newcastle, plus the adjacent minor stations like Eaglescliffe and Thornaby can serve as surrogates.