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Mark 1 LCHS on the mainline

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Whistler40145

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Is it still planned for Mark 1 LHCS to be banned from operating on the mainline?

I do know that Pathfinder Tours are using a Mk 1 rake on the Pathfinder Golden Anniversary railtour to Weymouth with 40145
 
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JonathanH

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Is it still planned for Mark 1 LHCS to be banned from operating on the mainline?
No.

LSL wouldn't have refurbished the Saphos rake of coaches with central door locking and controlled emission toilets if Mark 1 LHCS would have been banned.

The existing official derogations to run Mark 1s expired on 31 March 2023, yet Railway Touring Company, West Coast Railways and Saphos have a full season of trips planned.

However, it may be expected that the requirements involved in keeping Mark 1s running on the main line are only going to get more onerous.
 

zwk500

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Is it still planned for Mark 1 LHCS to be banned from operating on the mainline?
It was never planned for them to be banned outright. However it is still the plan that they must be fitted with Central Door Locking, Retention tanks and I'm fairly sure lockable windows.
 

12LDA28C

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It was never planned for them to be banned outright. However it is still the plan that they must be fitted with Central Door Locking, Retention tanks and I'm fairly sure lockable windows.

Not sure about the lockable windows but I'm fairly sure that since the end of March, window bars are now a requirement at the droplight windows on the doors, although this is not limited to Mark 1s. Indeed the DBSO rake has recently had them fitted.
 

sonic2009

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The rake used on the Eurovision specials on Sunday 14th didn't have any window bars - this was the set operated by West Coast Railways and Nemesis Rail - so i suspect they may get them soon?
 

zwk500

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Not sure about the lockable windows but I'm fairly sure that since the end of March, window bars are now a requirement at the droplight windows on the doors, although this is not limited to Mark 1s. Indeed the DBSO rake has recently had them fitted.
Ah it may be that bars or locks are fitted - either way something to prevent window hanging.
 

JonathanH

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Ah it may be that bars or locks are fitted - either way something to prevent window hanging.
The LSL vehicles have a simple, and fairly tasteful single diagonal bar across the window inside which prevents the 'cage' appearance of previous window bars.
 

Masbroughlad

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The LSL vehicles have a simple, and fairly tasteful single diagonal bar across the window inside which prevents the 'cage' appearance of previous window bars.
I find the vertical window bars quite off-putting. Makes it feel more claustrophobic too and 'trapped' somehow. Just a quirk of mine. Lol.
 

43096

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The LSL vehicles have a simple, and fairly tasteful single diagonal bar across the window inside which prevents the 'cage' appearance of previous window bars.
And which didn’t prevent heads appearing out of windows on the ScotRail livery set last weekend.
 

12LDA28C

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I find the vertical window bars quite off-putting. Makes it feel more claustrophobic too and 'trapped' somehow. Just a quirk of mine. Lol.

They are nothing compared to the three horizontal bars that were used on droplights on some Mark 1 charter stock in the 1990s. More akin to a prison, and often used as I recall on tours that traversed the Cumbrian Coast route due to the limited clearances on the line.
 

zwk500

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zwk500

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I think they’re quite an elegant solution. Of course I’d rather they weren’t there but they’re a lot less intrusive than the bars.
Sadly, there's been too many instances of people sticking their heads out of droplights and then getting struck, so Operators will need some method of preventing the windows being opened in flight for the foreseeable future. Locks linked into the CDL are quite neat, but charter operators might be able to justify manual locks worked by a carriage key on the basis of the stewarding levels - as long as enthusiasts who've been to ebay before boarding don't take matters into their own hands....
 

Ashley Hill

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but charter operators might be able to justify manual locks worked by a carriage key on the basis of the stewarding levels -
This would not allow emergency egress though especially if the steward is temporarily absent. If locked windows ever become a requirement then IMO something like the Night Riviera solution would be preferred.
One snag, would the same design fit in a Mk1 door?

Edited for spelling.
 
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zwk500

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This would not allow emergency egress though especially if the steward is temporarily absent.
A window punch could be fitted for emergency egress or an internal latch control.
If licked windows ever become a requirement then IMO something like the Night Riviera solution would be preferred.
I hope it never becomes a requirement that windows must be licked! :lol:
One snag, would the same design fit in a Mk1 door?
No idea.
 

Ashley Hill

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I hope it never becomes a requirement that windows must be licked! :lol:
Oops,well at least I know my posts get read :D.
A window punch could be fitted for emergency egress or an internal latch control.
Indeed,that is one solution however these have fallen out of fashion with shatterproof or laminated glass. Having said that I don’t think such glass is fitted to Mk1 doors.
 

zwk500

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If it were, I reckon many of the attendees at the recent SVR gala would already have complied with that particular instruction.
I really did not want to think about that image....
Indeed,that is one solution however these have fallen out of fashion with shatterproof or laminated glass. Having said that I don’t think such glass is fitted to Mk1 doors.
Personally I can see the internal door handle being the simplest way to do it, especially if linked-in window CDL isn't practical in a Mk1. Although I think there was a system that used a bolt extending from the carriage body through the frame to block downward movement of the window so you could open the window a crack but not wide enough to get any body parts out of it.
 

Ashley Hill

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I really did not want to think about that image....

Personally I can see the internal door handle being the simplest way to do it, especially if linked-in window CDL isn't practical in a Mk1. Although I think there was a system that used a bolt extending from the carriage body through the frame to block downward movement of the window so you could open the window a crack but not wide enough to get any body parts out of it.
Yes, DMU/EMU style,nice and simple.
 

gabrielhj07

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Sadly, there's been too many instances of people Darwin Award nominees sticking their heads out of droplights and then getting struck, so Operators will need some method of preventing the windows being opened in flight for the foreseeable future.
There. :lol:
 

zwk500

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Regardless on your opinion of the individuals involved, the ORR takes the view that their deaths are preventable and therefore reasonable effort should be made to prevent them.

The two most recent I'm aware of (although there will certainly have been others in between) involved an enthusiast on a GatEx 442 who struck a gantry, and a lady on a GWR HST who was struck by a tree branch (alcohol may have been involved in this one). Neither had a death wish and I'm fairly certain that had you bumped into either person on the street you'd not have thought them any different to anybody else.
 

ryan125hst

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Has anyone got any photos of how Controlled Emission Toilets have been fitted to Mark 1's? I've seen the article from the NYMR (which can be found here: https://www.nymr.co.uk/news/nymr-on-track-with-retention-tank-project) showing a photo of a vacuum toilet. Have they modernised the entire toilet or have they managed to keep some of the original fittings? How many toilets are companies typically upgrading per train? Where are they putting the tank? Looking at the videos of the NYMR carriages, I can't see anything obvious like what can be seen on the Mark 3 carriages.

And while we are on the topic of CET conversions, were all the toilets locked out of use on the Eurovision Specials that West Coast Railways were providing using the Riviera Trains rake? You couldn't see the detail on all the signs from the video (
) although one of them quite clearly has an 'Out Of Use' sign.
 

fgwrich

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And which didn’t prevent heads appearing out of windows on the ScotRail livery set last weekend.

Indeed, mostly no doubt to the usual bellows and somewhat irritating arm flailing.

They are nothing compared to the three horizontal bars that were used on droplights on some Mark 1 charter stock in the 1990s. More akin to a prison, and often used as I recall on tours that traversed the Cumbrian Coast route due to the limited clearances on the line.

I’m not sure what was worse, the 3 horizontal bars fitted to Southern EMU stock (and London Underground’s TC) or the 3 vertical bars fitted to DRS Mk2s which later worked the Cumbrian services. Though at least they made opening the door slightly easier!


I think they’re quite an elegant solution. Of course I’d rather they weren’t there but they’re a lot less intrusive than the bars.

A window punch could be fitted for emergency egress or an internal latch control.

I hope it never becomes a requirement that windows must be licked! :lol:

No idea.

Possible, but it wouldn’t be as easy a a Mk3. The advantage to the Night Riviera system is that a lot of the equipment can be fitted into the door (those Mk3 doors are quite chunky even if the main heavy part isn’t) as well as connecting with an already fitted CDL system.

That said, LSL’s Mk1 fleet does now utilise equipment salvaged from various Mk3s, so I’m sure it isn’t beyond possibility. If you haven’t seen the equipment fitted to the Night Riviera, it looks like this. It is interlocked with the CDL preventing the droplight from being open while the door is locked.
 

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gabrielhj07

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I think I’m right in saying that if the door is locked but the window is down, it will allow the window to move back up and lock it there?
 

Wyrleybart

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Regardless on your opinion of the individuals involved, the ORR takes the view that their deaths are preventable and therefore reasonable effort should be made to prevent them.

The two most recent I'm aware of (although there will certainly have been others in between) involved an enthusiast on a GatEx 442 who struck a gantry, and a lady on a GWR HST who was struck by a tree branch (alcohol may have been involved in this one). Neither had a death wish and I'm fairly certain that had you bumped into either person on the street you'd not have thought them any different to anybody else.
I am afraid the enthusiast on the class 442 really should have known better, simply because he knew there was one openable window per side on the unit for the guard to use. However, should the distance of the gantry to the train really been that tight ?
 
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