Mark 3 coaches written off

[Helvellyn]

Can anyone shed any light on what happened to SC12018? Was it at Glasgow Works when it got into that state, or had it happened elsewhere and it was taken there to be cut up?

The Mark 3 coaches seemed to suffer some early write offs: -

QE10505 - Morpeth, 24/06/84
QE10524 - Morpeth, 24/06/84
QE10528 - Morpeth, 24/06/84
QE10652 - Morpeth, 24/06/84
QE10659 - Morpeth, 24/06/84
QE10733 - Morpeth, 24/06/84
SC11004 - Polmont, 30/07/84
LM11025 - Colwich, 19/09/86
LM11061 - Colwich, 19/09/86
SC12006 - Polmont, 30/07/84
SC12018 - Cowlairs, 05/11/81
LM12039 - Bushey, 16/02/80
LM12074 - Colwich, 19/09/86
LM12162 - Bushey, 16/02/80


I'm particularly intrigued by the 5 sleeping cars written off at Morpeth. The pictures I've seen wouldn't seem to indicate five vehicles were written off. Now I know there might have been damage that wasn't obvious, but could it also be the case that BR already knew it had a glut of Mark 3 sleeping cars, so it was cheaper to write them off rather than repair them?

Also, does anyway know if thw write off of the two FOs at Colwich impacted the RFM conversion scheme? Platform 5 books at the time show that it was planned to convert 64 vehicles (10200-10263), 24 of which were due to be converted from FOs. In the event only 18 FOs were rebuilt, giving a total of 58 RFMs. I also wonder if 4 more TRUKs were planned to be converted, but never were - four remained in use with InterCity, four were converted to Royal vehicles and only twelve became RFMs (10200-10211).

 

[rail-britain]

SC12018 simply suffered Arson attack on 05 November 1981 at Cowlairs, and was then moved to Glasgow Works for stripping

The Mark 3 sleepers were stored for evaluation
However due to their unique and slightly more complicated design it was decided it was not economic to repair them
Note you missed 10733
SLEP : 10505, 10524, 10528
SLE: 10652, 10659, 10733

The loss of the two FOs did not impact the RFM conversion as the plans had changed by the time work commenced, hence why some of the TRUKs were not converted (it was found the FO were easier to convert)

This review came about after the order for Mark 3B coaches was seriously amended (due to falling passenger numbers)
A compromise during construction was retaining three FO coaches and building these as BFO (the original plan was for many more)
The BREL International train was then replaced by these more standard trains

 

[OuterDistant]

Did sc12025 and 12029 survive the Cadder fire? There's an impressive photo of them burning in the official report but it doesn't say if they were written off.

 

[Helvellyn]

SC12018 simply suffered Arson attack on 05 November 1981 at Cowlairs, and was then moved to Glasgow Works for stripping.

Thanks for that. For a long time I thought Sc12018 was written off at Polmont, but once I'd read the accident report I saw it wasn't involved. It wasn't until I came across that photo on flickr that I realised it was written off due to fire damage.

The Mark 3 sleepers were stored for evaluation.
However due to their unique and slightly more complicated design it was decided it was not economic to repair them. Note you missed 10733.

SLEP : 10505, 10524, 10528
SLE: 10652, 10659, 10733

Thanks again. The accident report says it shows the coach numbers on the diagram in the appendix, but never did! I'd not realised that the newest SLE (10733) had been in the train. I knew that 10734 and 10735 were rebuilt for use in the royal train before ever entering service, so that explains the fate of 10733.

The loss of the two FOs did not impact the RFM conversion as the plans had changed by the time work commenced, hence why some of the TRUKs were not converted (it was found the FOs were easier to convert).

This review came about after the order for Mark 3B coaches was seriously amended (due to falling passenger numbers). A compromise during construction was retaining three FO coaches and building these as BFOs (the original plan was for many more).

I'd always thought the order was for 38 FOs. Do you know how many were originally planned? I've done a previous thread about the gaps in the names of the Pullman 3Bs, but nothing was mentioned there about the order being planned to be bigger.

I was also surprised that during the RFM conversion some (or all) weren't kitted out with a 3B style interior. Always seemed odd to have the Pullman sets running about with their IC80 interior with 3A RFMs with their IC70 ones.

So the BFOs should have been 11102-11104 I guess? Now if the build had gone higher seeing coach 11111 would have been a bit odd!

 

[142]

Did sc12025 and 12029 survive the Cadder fire? There's an impressive photo of them burning in the official report but it doesn't say if they were written off.

can you link me the report please,

thanks

tom

 

[Helvellyn]

Can you link me the report please?

Found the report into the Cadder fire here. Neither coach was written off, so I suspect that the fire was not severe enough to damage the coach body, as can be seen with the image of Sc12018 when it suffered its arson attack.

For anyone who is interested you can also read about Bushey, Morpeth, Polmont and Colwich.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Did sc12025 and 12029 survive the Cadder fire? There's an impressive photo of them burning in the official report but it doesn't say if they were written off.

They were rebuilt.

12029 is currently at Long Marston with VT listed as the owner.

12025 is currently 42367, one of AXC's fleet.

 

[rail-britain]

Did sc12025 and 12029 survive the Cadder fire?

The coaches did not require rebuilding, some internal components were replaced
The primary damage was smoke damage
The faceplates and gangway were replaced, the rest was cleaned, some plasic panels had melted and these were also replaced, and 18 seats were replaced

As a result of this incident arrows were placed on the internal sliding doors on Mark 2 and Mark 3 coaches
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd always thought the order was for 38 FOs. Do you know how many were originally planned? I've done a previous thread about the gaps in the names of the Pullman 3Bs, but nothing was mentioned there about the order being planned to be bigger.

I was also surprised that during the RFM conversion some (or all) weren't kitted out with a 3B style interior. Always seemed odd to have the Pullman sets running about with their IC80 interior with 3A RFMs with their IC70 ones.

So the BFOs should have been 11102-11104 I guess? Now if the build had gone higher seeing coach 11111 would have been a bit odd!

I recommend you read up on the WCML electric HST project
This has full details of the original order for Mark 3B coaches, plus the RFM conversions

The first part of this scheme were the two RSM conversions
The order was for 60 RFM (58 conversions, plus the two existing RSM coaches)

The second part were the new Mark 3B coaches
FO : 38 coaches
BFO : 50 coaches
DVT : 51 coaches
TSO : 55 coaches

The project was cancelled in favour of Class 90 locos (which were already on order) running with DVTs

The BFO order was reduced to just 3
The TSO order was cancelled and replaced by DVT

The BFO coaches should have been numbered 17201 to 17251
Ironically, the original plan was for them to be BSO (similar to the TGS) but this was quickly amended to restore the guards area to the south end of a normal formation (as per the WCML)

 

[142]

Found the report into the Cadder fire here. Neither coach was written off, so I suspect that the fire was not severe enough to damage the coach body, as can be seen with the image of Sc12018 when it suffered its arson attack.

For anyone who is interested you can also read about Bushey, Morpeth, Polmont and Colwich.

thanks

 

[Helvellyn]

I recommend you read up on the WCML electric HST project.
This has full details of the original order for Mark 3B coaches, plus the RFM conversions.

Is there a specific internet site about this you could link me to?

 

[rail-britain]

Just search the term :
WCML electric HST project
Look for references to Mark 3B coaches
There is a BR document from 1986, but it might take me some time to find it
This outlined how the original order was amended and how the Class 90s would fill the gap

 

[Helvellyn]

I've done various searches but was unable to find the document.

A related Mark 3 question I have - SLEs 10734 and 10735 were rebuilt for royal train use, as were 4 HST TRUKs and two prototype vehicles (11001 and 12011 as 2903 and 2904 - The Queen's and The Duke of Edinburgh's saloons). Were 2922 and 2923 (The Prince of Wales's sleeping saloon and the The Prince of Wales's day saloon) truly new build vehicles, or were they converted from bodyshells intended for use elsewhere (e.g. was there going to be a 10736 that became 2922, as I know the SLEP and SLE orders were cut back).

 

[theblackwatch]

I've done various searches but was unable to find the document.

A related Mark 3 question I have - SLEs 10734 and 10735 were rebuilt for royal train use, as were 4 HST TRUKs and two prototype vehicles (11001 and 12011 as 2903 and 2904 - The Queen's and The Duke of Edinburgh's saloons). Were 2922 and 2923 (The Prince of Wales's sleeping saloon and the The Prince of Wales's day saloon) truly new build vehicles, or were they converted from bodyshells intended for use elsewhere (e.g. was there going to be a 10736 that became 2922, as I know the SLEP and SLE orders were cut back).

10734/5 never actually exisited as far as I know - it was the two coaches earmarked to become these that actually emerged as 2922/3.

 

[rail-britain]

2922 and 2923
If you look at the LOT numbers and design code, you will note they are after the rest of the SLE coaches
It therefore looks like these were added later, so would never have carried the sequential numbers from the other SLE coaches