Mark Harper will be on Laura Kuenssberg's programme today (27/11/2022 BBC1 09:00)

[zwk500]

DfT has published letter from Mark Harper to Mick Lynch

This is all sounds very promising, but there's no actual substance in that letter. Once again, Politicians waffle that contributes nothing to the actual problem solving.

I can only hope that there's a private letter to the RMT that gives some detail on what 'modernising working practices' actually means, and how he intends to 'facilitate' the agreements. But I doubt it.

AFAICT, there's nothing here for the RMT to actually reply to, other than by giving an equally pointless letter thanking him for his time.

 

[Towers]

That's merely Government wanting to look to the electorate like they're doing something, presumably in response to the earlier leaks portraying them as being disruptive to the process. It says nothing, in real terms.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Surely it would be lower post COVID revenue rather than passengers as we're surely going to reach similar passenger figures soon

 

[thelongestroad]

He's still pretending it's nothing to do with him then.

 

[XIX7007177]

Again, all talk no substance. Throw in a few buzzwords.

I really do despair at the state of our politicians. On both political sides, utter ****e.

 

[ExRes]

I despair at some of the comments on here, the man isn't going to list every point of discussion in what's nothing more than an acknowledgement letter, he'll do that formally without adding a cc to RailUKforums members. If he hadn't written the letter you'd be queuing up to call him ignorant for not doing so, politicians are called out as blind of the facts when some of the posts on here show the posters to be not only blind but closed to anything other than politician bashing, for those that weren't around in the 70s and 80s it's all been done before and todays Unions are doing as much foot shooting as they did then, but hey, the Union leaders kept filling their pockets then at the expense of the memberships, could they possibly be doing the same now?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Again, all talk no substance. Throw in a few buzzwords.

I really do despair at the state of our politicians. On both political sides, utter ****e.

Compared to Shapps he is breath of fresh air and at least trying to widen the debate.

The reality is DfT ain't got any extra money above what HMT gave them as a budget for operating services which would have included an element for a pay rise. They have agreed business plans nearly a year ago with operators who tell DfT how much it will cost to deliver the service DfT has specified. So only the operators really know how to save money, not the DfT ie Harper, and initially been driven by stock retirement or service cut backs but some operators must have dangled the carrot that working practices are low hanging fruit - maybe but im not that sure as much of the industries costs are driven by the creeping safety standards over the last two decades which could be challenged but that is a long term exercise and probably won't liberate much unless they is a change of mindset and acceptance that you can never get to total safety and that ALARP needs to be the underpinning test.

The tragedy here is 5% in February would have bought at least peace this year and time to work through deeper issues separate from delivery may have ended up in the same place but at least DfT would have seen how revenue was responding to know with more certainty how much support the industry would need. Shapps firmly made sure that this was never going to happen and i for one hope Williams-Shapps implementation is buried as he bought nothing to the table to give this industry long term certainty and shouldn't be credited in history.

 

[Philip]

In terms of the modern reforms, a lot of people prefer not to work Sundays and took their railway job in the knowledge that they wouldn't be required to work on Sundays, unless a TOC which already has Sundays within their working week. On this basis I think it's only right to give people the choice of whether to have compulsory Sundays as part of their roster in return for a matching pay rise, or continue with a roster where they aren't required to work any Sunday but without the Sunday-working pay rise.

 

[Annetts key]

DfT has published letter from Mark Harper to Mick

So, by the sounds of it, the government still want the unions to agree to less employees, those that remain having worse terms and conditions, changes in working practices, and if (and in certain places/sections, it’s actually a big if) this saves money, then the remaining staff can have a small pay increase. Apart from the slightly better tone, it does not appear to be a significant change.

Less passengers may not mean less trains, if the same number of trains run, if the railways are to broadly offer the same level of customer service, there is no significant savings to be made in practice. Unless of course you have cuts. And Network Rail are cutting the service interval between routine maintenance of significant amounts of the infrastructure. Even without agreement with the unions.

I despair at some of the comments on here, the man isn't going to list every point of discussion in what's nothing more than an acknowledgement letter, he'll do that formally without adding a cc to RailUKforums members. If he hadn't written the letter you'd be queuing up to call him ignorant for not doing so, politicians are called out as blind of the facts when some of the posts on here show the posters to be not only blind but closed to anything other than politician bashing, for those that weren't around in the 70s and 80s it's all been done before and todays Unions are doing as much foot shooting as they did then, but hey, the Union leaders kept filling their pockets then at the expense of the memberships, could they possibly be doing the same now?

You are obviously anti-union. The union members are by law required to vote before industrial action can take place. This has happened not once, but twice for most members. So, no, it’s absolutely nothing to do with union officials filling their pockets. And in the RMT we have elections to decide on the union officials. Please point me to where this happens with the railway company’ ‘leaders’. Or indeed when we elected an MP to an office of state.

 

[ComUtoR]

What sort of work?

Platform lighting standards need to meet DOO requirements.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

RMT Rail Dispute - Important update from the General Secretary



29.11.22



Dear Colleague,



As you may be aware, last Thursday I met with the Secretary of State for Transport to discuss the ongoing dispute in defence of your jobs, pay and conditions. At this meeting I impressed upon him the need to act urgently to provide proper mandates to Network Rail and the Rail Delivery Group (RDG) in order that we can undertake meaningful negotiations to resolve the dispute.



You may have seen a copy of the communication sent to me from the Secretary of State yesterday evening, inviting me to a further meeting with the Rail Minister and representatives of Network Rail and the RDG this Friday, meaning more than a week will have passed since I met the Transport Secretary and emphasized the need for rapid action.



While I have agreed to attend the meeting on Friday, I have made clear to the Government that this delay is completely unacceptable. It is clear that rather than taking meaningful action to help bring about a resolution to the dispute, the Government is, inexplicably, sitting on its hands.



As our next round of action approaches, the clock is ticking on any offer being tabled before further strike days. I will of course be making this point in the strongest possible terms at the meeting on Friday and demanding again that the Government stops wasting time and enables a proper offer to be tabled.



I will of course keep you updated on these important matters.

Yours sincerely,

 

[GalaxyDog]

Balls to the "we have no money" excuse.

TfW, Scotrail and Merseyrail have all just agreed deals which gives staff decent pay and without skinning terms and conditions in the supposed name of "modernisation".

MPs expenses. Enough said.

 

[muz379]

In terms of the modern reforms, a lot of people prefer not to work Sundays and took their railway job in the knowledge that they wouldn't be required to work on Sundays, unless a TOC which already has Sundays within their working week. On this basis I think it's only right to give people the choice of whether to have compulsory Sundays as part of their roster in return for a matching pay rise, or continue with a roster where they aren't required to work any Sunday but without the Sunday-working pay rise.

In this respect at least any final deal will go to the members to be voted on .

I think there is a trade off to be had , in that people did indeed take their jobs without the requirement to work sundays . But things can and do change and as long as there is a sensible offer on the table I think any changes to sunday working conditions would be voted in by the members .

That being said as per the discussion up thread a lot of tocs already have sundays committed but with no additional cover to cover turns that the committed person isnt available for (whatever the reason may be) and that is where the DFT would have to bear the cost of providing that spare cover . Clearly not consistent with the messaging from the DFT that operating costs must be reduced

Balls to the "we have no money" excuse.

TfW, Scotrail and Merseyrail have all just agreed deals which gives staff decent pay and without skinning terms and conditions in the supposed name of "modernisation".

A view that is shared by a lot of toc and network rail staff in dispute

The scotrail agreement is now being used as the benchmark by people

 

[GalaxyDog]

It's a valid view. As said, MPs are going to be authorised to use expenses for Christmas parties. And are receiving a 2-3k payrise each on top of their obscene £75k+ salaries. But they can't pay the key workers after the covid maliase? NHS Nurses and doctors deserve a massive rise after everything. This is why this latest mealy mouthed weasel delay action is just that, plain and simple.

 

[Andrew1395]

BT are an entirely private company though,and made £1.2bn profit last year: https://newsroom.bt.com/results-for-the-full-year-to-31-march-2022/. The S/S probably feels completely unconcerned by the BT deal, as the negotiations aren't comparable. It'll be the TfW, Scotrail and Royal Mail deals that S/S will be looking at.

True, but Network Rail reported an operating profit of £2billion for 2021, and apart from a few, virtually every TOC is a privately owned subsidiary of a plc. TfW and ScotRail are de facto nationalised operations of the devolved administrations.

Royal Mail might be a good comparator. It’s privately owned, paid out lots of dividends, is losing money (partly because of some disastrous decisions by the previous management - partly due to the inability to come up with a strategy to cope with the decline of letter mail), and is a regulated monopoly. It also wants to slash jobs and modernise its work practices for those it wishes to retain.


And while the second pay offer in a year from BT to head off strikes is unlikely to move the SOS, it and other utilities are making pay offers that will be used as a gauge by the workforce when considering if they will continue supporting Industrial action.

I'm intrigued on how DOO would work on lines that have Request stops. Fine if you are on the platform by sticking your hand out, but when on the train?

You fill out a little paper slip with your Station stop request before starting your journey, get it countered signed by somebody responsible and hand it to the driver.

 

[Boski]

You fill out a little paper slip with you Station stop requestbefore starting your journey, get it countered signed by somebody responsible and hand it to the driver.

Talk about modernisation

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Balls to the "we have no money" excuse.

TfW, Scotrail and Merseyrail have all just agreed deals which gives staff decent pay and without skinning terms and conditions in the supposed name of "modernisation".

Also nurses offered 7.5% in Scotland as well but have yet to confirm if they will accept. Wales don't have say over NHS.

Of course the devolved administrations have no money either only what Westminster send them but have presumably taken the view better keep services going and find the money from somewhere else although in part loss of revenue only worsens the situation so part of it should be recovered.

Personally the govt need to just offer a tiered rise across the board say 10% for people under 25k down to 5% above 50k and nothing above 100k.

 

[Andrew1395]

That’s not right.

Its a £1500 flat rise for everyone. For someone earning 40k, that’s 3.75%.

However they did have a previous flat rise, also of £1500, in April.

FT says this year BT have made pay offers of between 6% and 16% depending on grade and salary.

BT strikes set to end after staff offered extra £1,500 pay rise

Unions recommend award for 85% of staff to end acrimonious dispute that has rocked the group

www.ft.com

 

[Llanigraham]

You fill out a little paper slip with your Station stop request before starting your journey, get it countered signed by somebody responsible and hand it to the driver.

Err?
How will that work when many small country stations, on lines where Request Stops are most common, are unmanned, so there will be no-one to do that?
As far as I can see DOO on lines with Request Stops is impossible.

 

[GalaxyDog]

Also nurses offered 7.5% in Scotland as well but have yet to confirm if they will accept. Wales don't have say over NHS.

Of course the devolved administrations have no money either only what Westminster send them but have presumably taken the view better keep services going and find the money from somewhere else although in part loss of revenue only worsens the situation so part of it should be recovered.

Personally the govt need to just offer a tiered rise across the board say 10% for people under 25k down to 5% above 50k and nothing above 100k.

Better to pay the staff so that they can serve better. Afterall, safety critical staff with their minds elsewhere (bills, feeding children and families, meeting bills) can be a liability. Also a better morale from being treated better pays dividends superbly.

 

[D6130]

DfT need to butt out of the day to day running of the railway in general. Efficiencies could certainly be made by removing civil servants from an industry they appear to know very little about, and let railway managers manage!

Like!

 

[Bald Rick]

FT says this year BT have made pay offers of between 6% and 16% depending on grade and salary.

yes, as I said, the deal just announced is in top of one earlier this year.

 

[zwk500]

True, but Network Rail reported an operating profit of £2billion for 2021, and apart from a few, virtually every TOC is a privately owned subsidiary of a plc. TfW and ScotRail are de facto nationalised operations of the devolved administrations.

According to NR's annual accounts, P.182, https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-co...work-Rail-Annual-report-and-accounts-2022.pdf the Grant income (majority of which is from the DfT, along with Transport Scotland) was £6.3bn, so in fact just NR is making a £4bn loss.

 

[JonathanH]

And are receiving a 2-3k payrise each on top of their obscene £75k+ salaries.

Are all £75k+ salaries obscene, or just MPs? Where would you set the UK salary cap?

MPs attract ire, but there are only 650 of them. Even if all their pay was spread over public sector employees, it wouldn't go very far. It also wouldn't settle this dispute.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

According to NR's annual accounts, P.182, https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-co...work-Rail-Annual-report-and-accounts-2022.pdf the Grant income (majority of which is from the DfT, along with Transport Scotland) was £6.3bn, so in fact just NR is making a £4bn loss.

NR makes no real profit all but c250m of its income is in the form of Dft direct grants (6.5B) or track access payments (2.8B) which are paid for via payments DfT makes to operators. So it costs 9.3B and rather than attacking the operators all the time to make savings its about time NR was told to cut back as it was paid to manage a much bigger railway (train/tonne miles) than is now using it.

 

[Bald Rick]

And are receiving a 2-3k payrise each on top of their obscene £75k+ salaries.

I agree that is obscene. MP pay needs to be much higher, then we might get some decent candidates in office.

 

[Robertj21a]

I agree that is obscene. MP pay needs to be much higher, then we might get some decent candidates in office.

I have to agree. The pay for a MP is very poor if we want quality.
Interesting that some train drivers have claimed that they have earned about the same amount.

 

[Class 170101]

I agree that is obscene. MP pay needs to be much higher, then we might get some decent candidates in office.

Go and stand in the corner for making that comment!

It's a valid view. As said, MPs are going to be authorised to use expenses for Christmas parties. And are receiving a 2-3k payrise each on top of their obscene £75k+ salaries.

For the record an MP gets £84,144 (a minister gets more)

https://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/pay-mps/

WMT has zero DOO capable stock. It has some units with retrofitted screens that are blanked out. Would love to see you attempt to operate a 350, 170, 172 or 323. Especially at UDD or SDO stations

Class 170s are definitely DOO capable and I would expect Class 172s to be DOO capable as well given that post privatisation stock is expected to be capable of DOO operation.

 

[IKB]

DfT has published letter from Mark Harper to Mick Lynch

Will the RMT publish a reply (doesn’t seem to be one yet) ?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1120557/letter-from-secretary-of-state-for-transport-to-general-secretary-of-the-rmt.pdf

Such a poorly worded letter. I would have thought the SOS (or advisors writing it for him) would have a better command of the language than that.

"There is a way forwards to meet everyone's needs"
"Let me set out how I think we can help support that"

Not exactly wordsmiths at the DFT.

 

[Annetts key]

Class 170s are definitely DOO capable and I would expect Class 172s to be DOO capable as well given that post privatisation stock is expected to be capable of DOO operation.

With respect, all trains are capable of being DOO. But not all of them can be DOO with punters on board.

Network Rail does need to improve its operations, but having a go at the very workforce that makes it functional is not the way to go about it. Already in many depots they are short staffed with managers regularly offering overtime to try to get the work done.

I don’t know about current figures, but not many years ago, apparently about 50% of all Network Apprentices left the company. If the terms and conditions, and the working practices become worse combined with well below inflation pay rises (and keep in mind when this dispute started, most railway companies were not intending for there to be any pay rise whatsoever), the staff turnover will continue to get worse.

With a lack of trained and experienced staff, expect the passenger experience to get considerably worse.

Network Rail needs to look at all areas where it spends money. There is waste absolutely everywhere. All the way from the storage of spares for equipment that no longer exists through to having to pay large amounts of money to contractors to cover for the lack of permanent staff.

A significant increase in costs in recent years, is the increased costs of far more staff working nights, as they ban us from working with lookout warning systems. Modern technology could be used to significantly improve the safety of lookout warning systems. And in the longer term, it’s logical to include facilities in signal interlocking systems to provide improved staff warning/safety systems.

Network Rail also needs to stop replacing infrastructure that is very far from being life expired. I’ve seen point machines and signals that are perfectly good, in skips due to a renewal scheme where everything gets renewed regardless of its condition.

And as well as the actual OHL equipment, the GW electrification scheme resulted in brand new signals having to be provided, even though less than five years earlier new cables and signal heads had been provided in place of the existing signal heads.

Also, the quality of some of the ‘new’ equipment is nowhere near as good as the equipment that it replaces.

I know that it’s not intended to last for thirty years, as ETCS will replace it. But until then, unreliability costs money.