Mature student 16-25 railcard eligibility

[father_jack]

It looks like I will do what one of my neighbours does and register for an Access course at a Welsh college, then get a student card and drop out of the course. I won't mind buying the Newport-Abergavenny single then.

You have to attend a college course at least for 15 hours a week and for at least 20 weeks a year for the college to be able to stamp a mature student railcard- the college must be on an approved list also.

 

[s3an]

You have to attend a college course at least for 15 hours a week and for at least 20 weeks a year for the college to be able to stamp a mature student railcard- the college must be on an approved list also.

my neighbour has done(=started) three suitable courses at a cost of £10-£20 each.

 

[father_jack]

my neighbour has done(=started) three suitable courses at a cost of £10-£20 each.

Well the person signing and stamping the form on behalf of the college might come a cropper one day !!!!!

 

[infobleep]

Well the person signing and stamping the form on behalf of the college might come a cropper one day !!!!!

You have to attend a college course at least for 15 hours a week and for at least 20 weeks a year for the college to be able to stamp a mature student railcard- the college must be on an approved list also.

Is that 15 hours of tutor lead instruction or can it include study time. For example if someone did a part time masters, whilst not working, and used all the their spare time to study, would that be acceptable?

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[father_jack]

Is that 15 hours of tutor lead instruction or can it include study time. For example if someone did a part time masters, whilst not working, and used all the their spare time to study, would that be acceptable?

I believe it is in the classroom. "Attending" being the operative word. http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/using-your-railcard/are-you-eligible/

 

[crehld]

I believe it is in the classroom. "Attending" being the operative word. http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/using-your-railcard/are-you-eligible/

How do you define "in the classroom"? Consider PhD students. There are no classrooms involved. Yet when I was a PhD student I still qualified for the 16-25 railcard. The way I (and probably almost every other colleague in the higher education industry) see it you are attending a university if you are registered with a university to work towards a programme of study which is delivered by that university.

Incidentally I was initially registered by the university as a part-time student (before I secured funding and moved to full-time), but as I attended the course for over 15 hours a week and over 20 weeks a year I was still classified as a full-time student for the purpose of the railcard.

 

[IanD]

You have to attend a college course at least for 15 hours a week and for at least 20 weeks a year for the college to be able to stamp a mature student railcard- the college must be on an approved list also.

The railcard is available as soon as you start the course so there's not a lot that can be done if you then drop out once you've got the railcard.

 

[[.n]]

Well the person signing and stamping the form on behalf of the college might come a cropper one day !!!!!

I don't see why, we can only check eligibility at the point of signing and stamping the form, we have no control after that or any reporting mechanism. For 18+ Oyster cards we can revoke these at any time (and required to by TFL).

 

[father_jack]

How do you define "in the classroom"? Consider PhD students. There are no classrooms involved. Yet when I was a PhD student I still qualified for the 16-25 railcard. The way I (and probably almost every other colleague in the higher education industry) see it you are attending a university if you are registered with a university to work towards a programme of study which is delivered by that university.

Incidentally I was initially registered by the university as a part-time student (before I secured funding and moved to full-time), but as I attended the course for over 15 hours a week and over 20 weeks a year I was still classified as a full-time student for the purpose of the railcard.

Oh indeed, I don't disagree- but a PhD requires a tad more dedication that an "access" course so deserves a YP more !!!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is that 15 hours of tutor lead instruction or can it include study time. For example if someone did a part time masters, whilst not working, and used all the their spare time to study, would that be acceptable?

Universities, when setting a course as full time, will define how much contact time you'll have and how much time you're expected to devote to independent study. All of this counts as "attendance". Different courses have different ratios of contact time and independent study; science courses require a lot more contact time than humanities courses.

Part time study will usually be set as a Full Time Equivalent of that.

Depending on the course and the FTE amount, it's possible for someone to be studying part time and be eligible for the railcard, as well as other things such as council tax exemption.

OU and other distance courses don't count because a student is never in attendance.

 

[infobleep]

Why do students get access to the discount card when over 26? What was the reason for deciding that?

Doss anyone on long term sick leave or not working long term due to sickness but not getting incapacity benefit, get any discounts on the trains? It is possible to be long term ill and not be eligible for incapacity benefit.

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[cuccir]

Why do students get access to the discount card when over 26? What was the reason for deciding that?

Doss anyone on long term sick leave or not working long term due to sickness but not getting incapacity benefit, get any discounts on the trains? It is possible to be long term ill and not be eligible for incapacity benefit.

The 16-25 railcard has evolved from the student railcard that was created in a deal between British Rail and the National Union of Students - this is a commercial product, not a state-benefit. Prior the 1980s, the product was only available to students, not all young people, so in part mature student access is a legacy of that. Labour market statistics show that graduates earn on average (though of course there is a lot of variation!) £10,500 more a year than non-grads, and people with postgrad qualifications earn on average £6,000 more a year again. So commercially, it makes sense giving a discount to get these people using the train when they're on a lower income.

With regards to people not working because of illness who are not on benefits: no, I suppose people don't get a discount. You can blame a government that has systemically dissembled the welfare state so that people who might require financial support don't receive it, because of misguided beliefs about the nature of labour, healthcare, psychology and economics, for that.

 

[infobleep]

The 16-25 railcard has evolved from the student railcard that was created in a deal between British Rail and the National Union of Students - this is a commercial product, not a state-benefit. Prior the 1980s, the product was only available to students, not all young people, so in part mature student access is a legacy of that. Labour market statistics show that graduates earn on average (though of course there is a lot of variation!) £10,500 more a year than non-grads, and people with postgrad qualifications earn on average £6,000 more a year again. So commercially, it makes sense giving a discount to get these people using the train when they're on a lower income.

With regards to people not working because of illness who are not on benefits: no, I suppose people don't get a discount. You can blame a government that has systemically dissembled the welfare state so that people who might require financial support don't receive it, because of misguided beliefs about the nature of labour, healthcare, psychology and economics, for that.

Well the train companies could make a commercial product aimed at people with illnesses. After all they make disabled rail cards available. Not to mention Senior citizen ones. I don't know if the government funds these.

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[Tetchytyke]

Well the train companies could make a commercial product aimed at people with illnesses. After all they make disabled rail cards available. Not to mention Senior citizen ones. I don't know if the government funds these.

Commercial railcards are available to people with long-term illnesses or disabilities, through the Disabled Person's Railcard.

These days, if your long-term illness isn't serious enough to meet the criteria for this then chances are it isn't serious enough to meet the criteria for long-term sickness benefit either.

Full-time students of all ages are eligible to buy the railcard because it started out as a student railcard. The income available to students through grants, loans and bursaries doesn't increase just because they are over 26.

Next you'll be complaining that the NUS sell an NUS Extra card to students, which gives them discounts on a wide range of things, including Arriva day and weekly bus passes.

 

[infobleep]

Commercial railcards are available to people with long-term illnesses or disabilities, through the Disabled Person's Railcard.

These days, if your long-term illness isn't serious enough to meet the criteria for this then chances are it isn't serious enough to meet the criteria for long-term sickness benefit either.

Full-time students of all ages are eligible to buy the railcard because it started out as a student railcard. The income available to students through grants, loans and bursaries doesn't increase just because they are over 26.

Does that mean you don't have to claim incapacity benefit in order to be able to get a disabled persons rail card?

What about people on employment support allowance who currently don't work? Would they all be able to get incapacity benefit and / or a disabled persons rail card?

I am certain there are illnesses where one is well enough to look after themselves but not well enough to work.

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[Tetchytyke]

You have to be receiving Disability Living Allowance or Personal Independence Payments (or have a vision or hearing impairment) to be eligible for the Disabled Person's Railcard. Being in receipt of Employment Support Allowance (which has replaced incapacity benefit and income support for people with long-term illness) isn't enough.

My point is that the eligibility criteria for long-term ESA is now so high that, in the vast majority of cases, people would also meet the eligibility criteria for DLA or PIP.

 

[tony_mac]

Universities, when setting a course as full time, will define how much contact time you'll have and how much time you're expected to devote to independent study. All of this counts as "attendance".

I wouldn't count 'independent study' time as 'attendance'.
For example, Universities are required to monitor 'attendance' for Visa and Immigration purposes - this is only ever organised teaching time, and not independent study.

If actually being present is not monitored, required, or even suggested, I doubt that could be considered 'attendance' by any reasonable definition. Unless, like the word 'journey', the word 'attendance' can switch between contradictory meanings...

However, in reality, nobody is really bothered about the details. (Many genuine full-time degree courses wouldn't actually meet the 15 hours required attendance!).

 

[Tetchytyke]

I wouldn't count 'independent study' time as 'attendance'.
For example, Universities are required to monitor 'attendance' for Visa and Immigration purposes - this is only ever organised teaching time, and not independent study.

It depends what you're saying a student is attending.

A student here on a student visa needs to be regularly attending their course. Universities define this themselves, but many seem to use the benchmark of 80% attendance in contact time. But different courses have differing amounts of contact time and, as you say, there are plenty of full time courses where a student will have less than 15 hours' contact time per week.

The University will usually define how many hours per week of independent study are "compulsory" (not that they check up on this) and this will usually be treated as "attendance" for things like council tax. But yes, as often as not it really is a bit of a fudge and a "full time course" will simply be any course the University decides to define as one.

 

[s3an]

I popped over the border into Wales this morning, did various online tests, had a 15 minute interview and filled in an application for a full time course. I paid my £20 and will start in September.

I asked about the 16-25 railcard and the Course Leader will sign it and my photos first day of the course.

I will soon recoup the money that GWR owes me.

 

[cuccir]

Deleted - post was repeating themes as hadn't noticed that the thread had already gone to a second page!

 

[tony_mac]

The University will usually define how many hours per week of independent study are "compulsory" (not that they check up on this) and this will usually be treated as "attendance" for things like council tax.

For council tax purposes, the requirement is to 'study', and not to 'attend'.
Perhaps some universities require compulsory independent study, but I think 'expected' is the usual term.

But, to try and keep on topic a little, I'm sure that the staff signing the form won't pay the least bit of attention. It's not as if they have any incentive to argue about it, when signing will be much quicker and less likely to annoy the student (they won't want to risk harming the National Student Survey results).

I popped over the border into Wales this morning, did various online tests, had a 15 minute interview and filled in an application for a full time course. I paid my £20 and will start in September.

hmmmm...
I take it you have no intention of actually attending the course?

 

[infobleep]

You have to be receiving Disability Living Allowance or Personal Independence Payments (or have a vision or hearing impairment) to be eligible for the Disabled Person's Railcard. Being in receipt of Employment Support Allowance (which has replaced incapacity benefit and income support for people with long-term illness) isn't enough.

My point is that the eligibility criteria for long-term ESA is now so high that, in the vast majority of cases, people would also meet the eligibility criteria for DLA or PIP.

But the vast majority of people on a 16-25 young persons card are not mature students, yet such a product is available to mature students. I understand the history of way, just pointing it out.

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[adrock1976]

Perhaps it is not publicised enough for mature students?

I remember during the 1990s it was the Y - P Railcard. I believe upon "Simplification" or thereabouts in 2008, it was rebranded to the present day 16 -25 Railcard.

Maybe as a catch-all situation, it could have been rebranded as Y & S, denoting Youth and Students Railcard?

 

[IanD]

Perhaps it is not publicised enough for mature students?

I remember during the 1990s it was the Y - P Railcard. I believe upon "Simplification" or thereabouts in 2008, it was rebranded to the present day 16 -25 Railcard.

Maybe as a catch-all situation, it could have been rebranded as Y & S, denoting Youth and Students Railcard?

It was originally the Student Railcard and only people in full time education were eligible, regardless of age. I had to get my headmaster to sign my form when I was 15 (maybe 14 even).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . .

I am certain there are illnesses where one is well enough to look after themselves but not well enough to work.

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That is a very interesting point of view, and one that is worthy of careful examination, but I'm sorry to say that I don't think that the 'Fares Advice & Policy' section of a forum dedicated to the Railways in the UK is the place to host that discussion. There are some other well known UK fora which are very animated by questions of 'rights', 'privileges', 'assessments' and the 'criteria' applied to benefits and employment, and who have some informed contributors.

I don't wish to discourage your discussion, but rather to point you towards places where it might be more productive.

 

[infobleep]

That is a very interesting point of view, and one that is worthy of careful examination, but I'm sorry to say that I don't think that the 'Fares Advice & Policy' section of a forum dedicated to the Railways in the UK is the place to host that discussion. There are some other well known UK fora which are very animated by questions of 'rights', 'privileges', 'assessments' and the 'criteria' applied to benefits and employment, and who have some informed contributors.

I don't wish to discourage your discussion, but rather to point you towards places where it might be more productive.

I only brought it up in relation to rail cards. Life certainly isn't black and white at times. I won't go further or I'll veer off topic.

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[greatkingrat]

I wonder if signing up for a course you have no intention of completing purely to obtain a railcard could be considered as fraud?

 

[s3an]

I wonder if signing up for a course you have no intention of completing purely to obtain a railcard could be considered as fraud?

i won't be doing that. but, given i teach Masters students and professionals, part-time i don't think i will have too many problems. given that the work is similar from year to year i can probably do some it before i arrive. i might even offer to give a free lecture on how to secure your moodle system

I have often thought about approaching GWR to offer on train tutorials. maybe in first class only, in return for a free upgrade.

 

[island]

Does that mean you don't have to claim incapacity benefit in order to be able to get a disabled persons rail card?

What about people on employment support allowance who currently don't work? Would they all be able to get incapacity benefit and / or a disabled persons rail card?

They may be able to get a JobcentrePlus discount card.

 

[ASharpe]

Sorry if this should be a new thread.

I'm a mature student and my course finishes very shortly. Am I correct in thinking that I can buy a new railcard now that is valid for 1 year?

Th admin/registry at my university did the form signing and stamping earlier this week for me.

I currently have a YNG railcard that expires shortly if that is relevant - i.e. can I milk the time I can have a railcard for as long as possible?