McGill's Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and Eastern Scottish)

[DunsBus]

Absolute Truth!

Realistically lothian can’t help given the lack of drivers, however, I’m curious to how over the coming weeks this will be handled, as we all are.

But what I would wonder about is where West Lothian Council or someone else could get a new small depot sorted for services at such short notice, surely if Lothian Country was able to source something another area or building somewhere can be sourced as well.

Also whilst it’s only hypothetical and certainly a divisive thing to say is it time we should be asking for Private Companies who fail the public to be barred from operating commercial or subsidised services in these areas.


They are and should.

The shares were allocated in 1996, when Lothian Regional Council was abolished, based on the route mileage operated in the relevant successor council areas. West Lothian's 1% share was as a result of the 109.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Absolute Truth!

Realistically lothian can’t help given the lack of drivers, however, I’m curious to how over the coming weeks this will be handled, as we all are.

But what I would wonder about is where West Lothian Council or someone else could get a new small depot sorted for services at such short notice, surely if Lothian Country was able to source something another area or building somewhere can be sourced as well.

Also whilst it’s only hypothetical and certainly a divisive thing to say is it time we should be asking for Private Companies who fail the public to be barred from operating commercial or subsidised services in these areas.


They are and should.

Private companies which continue making losses will eventually run out of cash and go bust. The administrator could then investigate the Directors for knowingly trading whilst insolvent (its a bit more complex - but that’s a one sentence summary!). So if failing the public is taking action to stop or reduce financial losses, then it’s not time for this at all - it would contradict the Duties of Directors!

 

[CN04NRJ]

Whilst investment is mentioned they did make it clear that it was largely covering ongoing costs.
“McGill’s Group has injected a total of £4.5million into McGill’s Eastern Scottish to turn round the ailing business.

Despite this substantial investment – a mixture of one-off investment and mainly ongoing subsidy from McGill’s Group and its owners -“

The public's perception of "investment" in statements made about the withdrawal of services probably isn't that the true meaning is the weekly overheads of the business.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The shares were allocated in 1996, when Lothian Regional Council was abolished, based on the route mileage operated in the relevant successor council areas. West Lothian's 1% share was as a result of the 109.

I’m fairly certain the shares were re-adjusted at some point though as I remember Edinburgh Council (now Transport for Edinburgh) previously having a 93% share and West Lothian Council 0.1% I think it was? The 1% I imagine has come about since the start of Lothian Country in 2018.

 

[Siemens Trains]

I’m fairly certain the shares were re-adjusted at some point though as I remember Edinburgh Council (now Transport for Edinburgh) previously having a 93% share and West Lothian Council 0.1% I think it was? The 1% I imagine has come about since the start of Lothian Country in 2018.

Regardless of the fractions involved, shareholder influence on a company's decisions isn't particularly strong. There might be a few exceptions with well-publicised protests at AGMs, but companies can usually find other shareholders if existing ones don't like what they're doing. The influence of councils on bus companies is more carefully controlled to ensure the arms length status is preserved and the environment remains competitive. The former Lothian Region councils can't tell Lothian Buses how to run their day-to-day business, contrary to what many of the public seem to think.

 

[Ding Ding]

Regardless of the fractions involved, shareholder influence on a company's decisions isn't particularly strong. There might be a few exceptions with well-publicised protests at AGMs, but companies can usually find other shareholders if existing ones don't like what they're doing. The influence of councils on bus companies is more carefully controlled to ensure the arms length status is preserved and the environment remains competitive. The former Lothian Region councils can't tell Lothian Buses how to run their day-to-day business, contrary to what many of the public seem to think.

In the main this is true, but the councils can have some sort of influence, not much but some. The managing director of Lothian has to be sympathetic, shall we say, to the overall transport plans for Edinburgh, ie: Trams. I am led to believe that the last incumbent, Richard Hall, didn't play ball in that respect and left. Through the interview process, I'm sure the council will make sure that the new appointee is aware of their desires, before a decision is made. Lothian are a private company, but obviously have discussions with all the relevant authorities as regards theirs and the company's needs and how they can be fashioned to meet passengers needs.
I know discussions have will have been going on with Scottish Govt and relevant authorities already, in regards to the situation in West Lothian. Lothian should be able to provide services to cover the main towns in West Lothian in time. They may not run to the same frequency or route as before, due to driver recruitment, they can't be employed and trained over night, vehicle availability etc. I think with Lothian about to be the main operator in West Lothian, they will work with the council to try and provide a good network. It won't please everyone, but then, you never can.

 

[GusB]

Ahem! This thread is about McGill's Scotland East, so let's please stay on topic. Thanks

 

[Christmas]

I wonder why they can't keep the Eastern Scottish brand going by operating schools, contacts, hires and West Lothian tenders (should they win any).
Many drivers at Livingston may not want to drive Flixbus or Bright Bus tours, so they should attempt to find work for service buses that doesn't involve commercial services. This is how many independent companies work. Bright Bus is seasonal too, so much less work for those drivers over the winter months.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I wonder why they can't keep the Eastern Scottish brand going by operating schools, contacts, hires and West Lothian tenders (should they win any).
Many drivers at Livingston may not want to drive Flixbus or Bright Bus tours, so they should attempt to find work for service buses that doesn't involve commercial services. This is how many independent companies work. Bright Bus is seasonal too, so much less work for those drivers over the winter months.

I'd imagine a lot of those drivers will likely move to Lothian, or be offered a place at Midland Bluebird which is also still short of drivers.

 

[Ding Ding]

I wonder why they can't keep the Eastern Scottish brand going by operating schools, contacts, hires and West Lothian tenders (should they win any).
Many drivers at Livingston may not want to drive Flixbus or Bright Bus tours, so they should attempt to find work for service buses that doesn't involve commercial services. This is how many independent companies work. Bright Bus is seasonal too, so much less work for those drivers over the winter months.

The problem with that, in regards school work etc, is that they would be up against the likes of Horsburgh, who's overheads are way lower, enabling them to put in a lower tender price. The drivers on school work are in the main part time, which wouldn't suit someone at Eastern who is on a full time contract. The West Lothian tenders have just been fulfilled, I don't know the length of the contracts, but even if it was only 1 year which I doubt, they couldn't keep a depot going in the hope that they would win them next time around.
As has been said, Lothian will need more drivers, so those that want to, if suitable, can find employment there, those that don't, can move to Larbert.

 

[stevenedin]

The problem with that, in regards school work etc, is that they would be up against the likes of Horsburgh, who's overheads are way lower, enabling them to put in a lower tender price. The drivers on school work are in the main part time, which wouldn't suit someone at Eastern who is on a full time contract. The West Lothian tenders have just been fulfilled, I don't know the length of the contracts, but even if it was only 1 year which I doubt, they couldn't keep a depot going in the hope that they would win them next time around.
As has been said, Lothian will need more drivers, so those that want to, if suitable, can find employment there, those that don't, can move to Larbert.

As far as I’m aware, they will be keeping the depot open anyway as they will run Flixbus and Bright Bus Tours from that depot. They will also run Eastern Scottish services 20, 63 and 68 until at least the tenders are up next April.

 

[delt1c]

Ahem! This thread is about McGill's Scotland East, so let's please stay on topic. Thanks

McGills Scotland East is very much linked with Lothian Country , as they serve same area and Lothian could be West Lothian's saviour

 

[stevenedin]

McGills Scotland East is very much linked with Lothian Country , as they serve same area and Lothian could be West Lothian's saviour

I guess it was more that this thread is aimed at both Eastern Scottish and Midland Bluebird and Lothian Buses isn’t connected to Falkirk or Stirling.

 

[DunsBus]

McGills Scotland East is very much linked with Lothian Country , as they serve same area and Lothian could be West Lothian's saviour

I think there could be a twist to this. McGill's could well stay put in West Lothian if money is put on the table to subside their services.

I wouldn't bank on a Lothian Country victory just yet.

 

[stevenedin]

I think there could be a twist to this. McGill's could well stay put in West Lothian if money is put on the table to subside their services.

I wouldn't bank on a Lothian Country victory just yet.

I would like to think if that happens, they will have requirements to run all journeys. The service at the moment is atrocious.

 

[Ding Ding]

I think there could be a twist to this. McGill's could well stay put in West Lothian if money is put on the table to subside their services.

I wouldn't bank on a Lothian Country victory just yet.

Why would subsidies be offered to McGill's, do you think Lothian make a profit on their services? Lothian could then go cap in hand. There is no money to go round. It would be unprecedented if this were to happen, and would open the flood gates for every bus operator in the country.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I think there could be a twist to this. McGill's could well stay put in West Lothian if money is put on the table to subside their services.

I wouldn't bank on a Lothian Country victory just yet.

I agree somewhat with this, but my only point would be that McGill’s are already getting money from West Lothian Council for some routes. Either way the X22 and X24 are definitely gone as they’re fully covered. The 21, 23, 25 and 26 obviously remains to be seen but of those four, I think two already have fairly large subsidies anyway. I think this is now the second time McGill’s have tried to cut them, albeit the first time was in part.

Ultimately I’d rather everywhere had a bus over there being gaps in areas served across the county, even if it was a McGill’s one.

 

[delt1c]

Residents here have given up on Mc Gills and see it as a bad word.

 

[CraigLockhart]

I think there could be a twist to this. McGill's could well stay put in West Lothian if money is put on the table to subside their services.

I wouldn't bank on a Lothian Country victory just yet.

If Transport Scotland gave McGills money it would set a very dangerous precedent for other companies to do the same. I can't see it but we are talking about politicians here

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I think there could be a twist to this. McGill's could well stay put in West Lothian if money is put on the table to subside their services.

I wouldn't bank on a Lothian Country victory just yet.

I also wouldn’t be surprised that hypothetically if that did happen the public aren't going to be thrilled about that.

 

[JKP]

I think there could be a twist to this. McGill's could well stay put in West Lothian if money is put on the table to subside their services.

I wouldn't bank on a Lothian Country victory just yet.

Perhaps Craig of Campbeltown will rescue bus services in West Lothian. They took over First in the Borders after all which was a risky investment. West Lothian routes would almost link their Borders and Glasgow operations. I’m sure that Mc Gills would rent them depot space!

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Perhaps Craig of Campbeltown will rescue bus services in West Lothian. They took over First in the Borders after all which was a risky investment. West Lothian routes would almost link their Borders and Glasgow operations. I’m sure that Mc Gills would rent them depot space!

The only thing McGills deserve is a boycott, a useless mob, as this story has unfolded and I’ve seen how the general feeling regarding this issue has been written throughout here and other social media platforms it’s all McGills deserve, there also seems an element of resentment by people in Dundee and ultimately that can also be found in the West as well.

Craig’s of Cambeltown and other private firms operating public service is failing, they should not be financially benefiting any longer from the public purse considering there failures.

 

[Stan Drews]

If Transport Scotland gave McGills money it would set a very dangerous precedent for other companies to do the same. I can't see it but we are talking about politicians here

Transport Scotland would give money to West Lothian Council, not directly to any particular operator.

WLC would then go through their normal tendering procedures, which would permit any operator on their framework agreement to submit bids. Don’t forget that Lothian Country have also previously operated in most of the areas now potentially without a commercial service, so should they be “banned” too?

 

[JKP]

Transport Scotland would give money to West Lothian Council, not directly to any particular operator.

WLC would then go through their normal tendering procedures, which would permit any operator on their framework agreement to submit bids. Don’t forget that Lothian Country have also previously operated in most of the areas now potentially without a commercial service, so should they be “banned” too?

Perhaps the Scottish Government should consider a Livingston area franchise under control of WLC incorporating both the existing Lothian routes and those being abandoned by McGills. They could ask Andy Burnham for advice!

 

[markymark2000]

They could ask Andy Burnham for advice!

What? Advice on how to make a collosal mess of things with contracts which are far too big, kill off 2 independents and force improvements onto services when they don't have the resources meaning there are just as many cancellations in Manchester now as there is in West Lothian! Yeah, go to Burnham. I mean, it can't be any worse surely?

 

[317 forever]

What I will say is this - with the last vestige of the "green buses" about to go, few could have foreseen back in 1986 that a successor to Edinburgh Corporation would nearly 40 years later end up replacing a successor to SMT in all of its former heartlands. If you'd tried to place a bet back then on this happening, the odds would have been astronomical - I very much suspect that you'd have been told to name your own price.

Yes, this is quite a turn of events.

Admittedly, on mainstream services serving central Edinburgh we will still have more variety of operators than when First had SMT, Midland Bluebird and Lowland in the area. First operations will have been replaced by additional Lothian services but also McGills/Midland Bluebird route X38 and WCM/Borders Buses routes 95, 253 & X62.

 

[JKP]

Yes, this is quite a turn of events.

Admittedly, on mainstream services serving central Edinburgh we will still have more variety of operators than when First had SMT, Midland Bluebird and Lowland in the area. First operations will have been replaced by additional Lothian services but also McGills/Midland Bluebird route X38 and WCM/Borders Buses routes 95, 253 & X62.

First also used to participate in the 100/101 Dumfries routes prior to MacEwan/Stagecoach now Houston’s. Borders Buses also run route 51 into Edinburgh.

I had a mad thought that West Lothian Council could operate the McGills routes themselves in the longer term. At least seven other Scottish Councils run routes themselves, admittedly not in such an urban environment and often not that frequent, but if needs must. Borders Regional/Scottish Borders Council even ran across boundaries with an early morning West Linton to Penicuik journey back in the late 1980s and more recently Peebles to Biggar.

 

[Christmas]

First also used to participate in the 100/101 Dumfries routes prior to MacEwan/Stagecoach now Houston’s. Borders Buses also run route 51 into Edinburgh.

I had a mad thought that West Lothian Council could operate the McGills routes themselves in the longer term. At least seven other Scottish Councils run routes themselves, admittedly not in such an urban environment and often not that frequent, but if needs must. Borders Regional/Scottish Borders Council even ran across boundaries with an early morning West Linton to Penicuik journey back in the late 1980s and more recently Peebles to Biggar.

With their fleet of welfare buses? Might be possible.

 

[bobdoe]

West Lothian Council can convert roads to bus-only forcing more people to use buses so they're financially viable. Haha.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

WLC can convert roads to bus-only forcing more people to use buses so they're financially viable. Haha.

Wouldn't be surprised, anything for money these days.