Mersey Ports Masterplan

[Cheshire Rover]

Peel Ports have issues their draft masterplan for the Merseyside and North West area.

http://www.merseydocks.co.uk/assets/pdf/masterplan/Consultation_Draft.pdf

It's a big document but does include many rail schemes to link port and dock expansions across the North West area.

It may be of interest to those who are interested in freight, business or even potential commuter routes???

 

[OxtedL]

I had a quick peruse, a very interesting document.

I got the impression of plans to barge containers up to a terminal in the Salford area, with a terminal there? Sounds good, includes a railhead. I wonder how expensive it is to barge things up the
canal? Does much get transported like this already?

 

[WatcherZero]

A limited amount for supermarkets (mainly wines). Transfer times from container ship-port-barge-port-train means I doubt it will be desirable for perishable goods.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Peel Holdings recently sold off The Trafford Centre which must have brought in capital to reinvest in new projects. They have a large presence in the Mersey basin already,

Not so long ago, a spokesman for the company was on television explaining the linear development down the Manchester Ship Canal that this document entails.

 

[tbtc]

I got the impression of plans to barge containers up to a terminal in the Salford area, with a terminal there? Sounds good, includes a railhead. I wonder how expensive it is to barge things up the
canal? Does much get transported like this already?

There's an equivalent idea for this side of the Pennines too: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/8571367.stm

Of course we can't call it anything old fashioned like a "canal", so it has to be an "Inland Port"

 

[OxtedL]

Well, whilst it's on the Manchester Ship Canal, I think they're calling it the "Port of Salford". I can't check though, as that document is rather large...

See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-13678248 (Is this what you mentioned, Paul?).

 

[merlodlliw]

Well, whilst it's on the Manchester Ship Canal, I think they're calling it the "Port of Salford".

I recall Salford Docks being the busiest inland port in the UK in the 60s,
but still reliant on the tide at Eastham Ferry.


Bob

 

[jopsuk]

There a barge-to-ship operation along the Dee- Airbus A380 wings get driven to the river on special lorries, loaded on to a barge, taken to Mostyn where they go on the Airbus Ferry. Bu that's a bit different!

 

[trickyvegas]

A limited amount for supermarkets (mainly wines). Transfer times from container ship-port-barge-port-train means I doubt it will be desirable for perishable goods.

I spotted a section mentioning the idea of port distribution centres at Wirral, Warrington, Ince & Salford.


I see no reason why smaller container ships cannot make use of the canal which would allow easy transfer to road or rail.

Apparantly the canal current handles 6 million tonnes of cargo per year, I would imagine largely due to Trafford Park.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well, whilst it's on the Manchester Ship Canal, I think they're calling it the "Port of Salford". I can't check though, as that document is rather large...

See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-13678248 (Is this what you mentioned, Paul?).

Yes, this the BBC summary of what was discussed in the programme clip. I think that the name will be "PORT SALFORD" in the area that was once the very large area of docklands at the inland end of the Manchester Ship Canal.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes, this the BBC summary of what was discussed in the programme clip. I think that the name will be "PORT SALFORD" in the area that was once the very large area of docklands at the inland end of the Manchester Ship Canal.

I think the new port area will be west of the M60 bridge at Barton Locks (not in the old dock area). The rail link to it would branch south off the Chat Moss line somewhere near where it crosses the M62.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Lots on interesting rail links suggested. This one caught my eye.

'The potential re-instatement of rail freight
connections to Birkenhead Docks (West Float)
and Eastham Docks (Port Wirral) would offer
further flexibility in terms of the potential for such
commodities to be moved more sustainably.'

This was regarding the movement steel and forest products.
It goes on.

'There are of course a number of other surface
access initiatives (notably from a rail freight
perspective) which form part of the Mersey Ports
growth strategy. There are opportunities at the
Port of Liverpool in respect of the reinstatement
of freight connections to Canada Dock and to the
West Float at Birkenhead Docks. The five
development initiatives upon the Ship Canal have
the potential to be rail connected to create truly
multi-modal Port facilities.'

I'm just wondering if the current rail network could cope with additional freight in these areas.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think the new port area will be west of the M60 bridge at Barton Locks (not in the old dock area). The rail link to it would branch south off the Chat Moss line somewhere near where it crosses the M62.

Thank you for the location clarfication, but the old area did extend some way upwards with specialised warehousing areas as well as the main Salford Docks complex.

I am surprised, this being a rail forum, that no-one has made mention of the once-extensive railway system owned and ran by the Manchester Ship Canal Company that not only served Salford Docks, but also ran alongside the Manchester Ship Canal for quite a good distance.

 

[tbtc]

The depressing thing not mentioned above is that this is generally all about importing; sadly for all the foreign wine and other products coming to "inland ports" we won't be manufacturing and exporting a great deal...

 

[Holly]

The depressing thing not mentioned above is that this is generally all about importing; sadly for all the foreign wine and other products coming to "inland ports" we won't be manufacturing and exporting a great deal...

There is a truly huge amount of scrap metal gets presently exported through Liverpool. Presumably this will increase as the shipbreaking industry gains momentum too.

Ultimately the world will face trade wars. The way the American economy is going the only long term solution (short of default) to its ever-expanding debt is protectionism, meaning an end to worldwide free-trade. And that will surely cause a tit-for-tat trade war with Asia. How niche players, like Britain's ports, come out of this is anyone's guess.

Whichever way you slice it, it is hard to see justification for any major new investment in rail freight in the North West, though a few old lines may be reinstated here and there where it is cheap to do.

 

[pablo]

It's a blockbuster designed to break through the morass of alphabet soup that strangles any positive initiative. Every conurbation in the country worth its salt is doing it. The noise level is high but it won't achieve half of what it aims for. It would make me dizzy if it did. Too many countervailing bureaucracies created by central governmint.

 

[Bevan Price]

Lots on interesting rail links suggested. This one caught my eye.

'The potential re-instatement of rail freight
connections to Birkenhead Docks (West Float)
and Eastham Docks (Port Wirral) would offer
further flexibility in terms of the potential for such
commodities to be moved more sustainably.'

This was regarding the movement steel and forest products.
It goes on.

'There are of course a number of other surface
access initiatives (notably from a rail freight
perspective) which form part of the Mersey Ports
growth strategy. There are opportunities at the
Port of Liverpool in respect of the reinstatement
of freight connections to Canada Dock and to the
West Float at Birkenhead Docks. The five
development initiatives upon the Ship Canal have
the potential to be rail connected to create truly
multi-modal Port facilities.'

I'm just wondering if the current rail network could cope with additional freight in these areas.

Birkenhead Docks - connection from Rock Ferry would probably need relaying - track still exists but very rusty & overgrown. Freight paths south of Rock Ferry would probably have to be at night - it would not be easy to fit in daytime freights with existing daytime Merseyrail Electric passenger services. Would be easier if docks were reconnected to the Bidston to Wrexham line, which could probably manage one freight per hour during daytime.

Canada Dock - line as far as Edge Lane Junction could cope with extra traffic, Problem is section between Olive Mount Junction and Huyton, which has 6 passenger trains per hour each way during daytime. However, they manage to find paths for coal trains to Fiddlers Ferry, so it ought to be possible to find paths for a few extra freights per day on this section.

Bevan

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whichever way you slice it, it is hard to see justification for any major new investment in rail freight in the North West, though a few old lines may be reinstated here and there where it is cheap to do.

The fact that some of these new inland linear ports are stated to take advantage of the existing rail infrastrucure as feeding traffic to them by new connections, if required, has much to commend it, especially if bulk transportation will be a requirement factor.

I am sure that Peel Holdings are well aware of any improvement in the rail infrastructure of the region concerned and have already made allowance for this to occur in their submissions.

 

[Hydro]

I really hope that they've sorted the geometry problems with Olive Mount chord to a satisfactory degree before increasing the amount of freight over it.

 

[ukrob]

I really hope that they've sorted the geometry problems with Olive Mount chord to a satisfactory degree before increasing the amount of freight over it.

What is wrong with it?

 

[Hydro]

It was tested a few months ago, and extremely severe defects were picked up that required it to be closed to traffic until rectified. Subsequent correspondence from the area Engineer explained that it was susceptible to these problems (though previously not as severe as picked up that night) due to "installation issues" when it was laid. Any more detail than that I don't know. I do know that no track installed that recently should have a 1:72 twist in it. The lower the ratio, the more severe, and track standards dictate immediate line closure at 1:90!

 

[185]

Lots on interesting rail links suggested. This one caught my eye.

'The potential re-instatement of rail freight
connections to Birkenhead Docks (West Float)
and Eastham Docks (Port Wirral) would offer
further flexibility in terms of the potential for such
commodities to be moved more sustainably.'

I'm just wondering if the current rail network could cope with additional freight in these areas.

Eastham would need just 300m of new track to the dockside and the ageing 6km of track linking it to Ellesmere Port replacing. Bidston (West Float) would need the curve from Bidston Station and crossing the New Brighton line to Wallasey Docks (2X points & 300m curve reinstating, and the 900m branch along the side of the M53 reinstating). Stuff would be arriving via Shotton & Wrexham so this could be a problem - both these considerations would access the network by not very busy routes.

Another consideration is the Rock Ferry branch to Birkenhead docks East Float, under the town, but this accesses the network via an incredibly busy route.

 

[Holly]

Eastham would need just 300m of new track to the dockside and the ageing 6km of track linking it to Ellesmere Port replacing.

Another possibility further out would be reinstatement of the line from Mouldsworth to Ince.
The mid-Cheshire line was historically important for bulk freight for good reason.

As to Birkenhead, one complication is a desire to extend the historic tram lines if and when the Birkenhead side of the Wirral Waters residential development takes off.

 

[The Crab]

Bidston (West Float) would need the curve from Bidston Station and crossing the New Brighton line to Wallasey Docks (2X points & 300m curve reinstating, and the 900m branch along the side of the M53 reinstating). Stuff would be arriving via Shotton & Wrexham so this could be a problem - both these considerations would access the network by not very busy routes.

I don't think that there would be any prospect of using that access to Wallasey Docks. I lived within sight of the connexion to the docks (known as the Slopes Branch) and the only movement I ever saw on this was a light LMS 3F 0-6-0T in about 1961! It would be feasible to provide access via the old Bidston Dock bulk terminal (the dock was filled in years ago) & there's even plenty of space for a yard but I think the "existing" link via Docks North Junction would be sufficient. The Wallasey side of the West Float didn't seem to provide much traffic apart from grain.

 

[kylemore]

It is common to tranship containers at Rotterdam for onward barge transport on the Rhine and associated inland waterway systems to inland ports such as Duisburg in the Ruhr. However the distances involved make this economic, it is not economic to tranship containers for a distance of barely 30 miles.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is common to tranship containers at Rotterdam for onward barge transport on the Rhine and associated inland waterway systems to inland ports such as Duisburg in the Ruhr. However the distances involved make this economic, it is not economic to tranship containers for a distance of barely 30 miles.

Firstly, it is providing a commercial reason for the use of the Manchester Ship Canal to transport items such as this along the sections to the new inland ports. Secondly, every such container not sent by road, is good for the environment. It is less traffic on the road system.

I do not doubt the Rotterdam barge traffic is a good use for the waterway systems that exist there, but that is a part of the geographical context of the area, that has been used to facilitate such traffic. It does not mean that a specially constructed waterway that is the Manchester Ship Canal cannot fulfil the same function, albeit in a shorter distance.

 

[lancastrian]

Birkenhead Docks - connection from Rock Ferry would probably need relaying - track still exists but very rusty & overgrown. Freight paths south of Rock Ferry would probably have to be at night - it would not be easy to fit in daytime freights with existing daytime Merseyrail Electric passenger services. Would be easier if docks were reconnected to the Bidston to Wrexham line, which could probably manage one freight per hour during daytime.

Canada Dock - line as far as Edge Lane Junction could cope with extra traffic, Problem is section between Olive Mount Junction and Huyton, which has 6 passenger trains per hour each way during daytime. However, they manage to find paths for coal trains to Fiddlers Ferry, so it ought to be possible to find paths for a few extra freights per day on this section.

Bevan

If my memory serves me right, I was under the impression that the line from Birkenhead/Rock Ferry to Hootton used to be four track, if as usaul shortsightedness has prevailed and it is now only double track, hopefully they have not sold off the unused trackbed so the four tracks could be reinstated down to Hootton and then the freight trains could be diverted along either via Chester or Helsby and if the reinstated the link between Helsby and Mouldsworth, on the old Mid cheshire line, then the freight trains could have many options to their destinations.

 

[Holly]

It is common to tranship containers at Rotterdam for onward barge transport on the Rhine and associated inland waterway systems to inland ports such as Duisburg in the Ruhr. However the distances involved make this economic, it is not economic to tranship containers for a distance of barely 30 miles.

Up to 150 miles or so, and assuming the final mile of the journey has to be by road anyway, using one HGV all the way is cheaper and more flexible than rail (or barge).

However, for Liverpool port this is not an option after significant expansion. The road system near the docks simply could not bear a doubling or more of traffic.

 

[OxtedL]

I think that if they could set a barge shuttle up as a quick, reliable and regular (and low cost) through service for containers coming into Liverpool then on to Salford and other container-heads along the route, then they could be onto a winner, particularly given the comments Holly has just made regarding congestion.

It's an interesting one, it will be fascinating to see if they can get something like this running, and if they do whether there is much take-up. Or if it is simply talk.

As a complete tangent, I have wondered if a regular barge service from, say, Tilbury to the North Kent Coast (maybe Isle of Grain? or Sheppey?) could be viable on the grounds it misses out Dartford. I'm probably talking nonsense here, particularly given the existence of Portsmouth and Southampton and a couple of other places along the south coast, but there might be potential. Particularly given a little subsidy.

 

[pablo]

Err hmm. There used to be a vehicle ferry Tilbury - Gravesend that finished when the Dartford hole opened. Barge carriers navigating downriver, around Grain Point and up the Medway to Thamesport makes no sense. 30 minute drive to regain the A2/M2 and the A228 will need millions spent which KCC has dodged for years. Sheppey makes little more sense. Why did the Gravesend - Strood canal fail and get taken over by the railway? An awareness of history might prevent repeating mistooks! The answer to Dartford is to increase the toll booths or remove them entirely. Delay problem solved.
Back on thread. MSC and Peel have a load of assets that they've acquired in various dealings and they are trying to make some of them work. Good luck but that report is all tendentious kite flying. Not much 'll happen except Dunnings Bridge Road might get a bit of treatment. Back to sleep.