Merseyrail 777 battery provision could see many extensions to the Merseyrail network?

[themiller]

There are questions of going beyond Preston, Helsby and Warrington, but the problem with the CLC is the number of additional non-stations other than Irlam east of Birchwood. Liverpool - Ormskirk - Southport is currently looking one of the most likely, following its inclusion in Steve Rotheram’s map. The reality is that there aren’t enough units ordered to run any extensions at all and that 52 wasn’t considered enough even to run Headbolt Lane, so any potential extensions will warrant the procurement of further units.

if I remember correctly, there is a large number of options in the contract so these could be for more of exactly the same or possibly slight variations on the 777 for further expansion of routes e.g. 25kV equipped.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd not say there were any "non stations" on any part of the CLC other than Glazebrook. All are comparable to various Merseyrail stations and are only poorly used because they have long had a terrible service. In the end pretty much nobody will use an urban service that isn't at least 2tph when there is a decent bus alternative.

 

[507020]

if I remember correctly, there is a large number of options in the contract so these could be for more of exactly the same or possibly slight variations on the 777 for further expansion of routes e.g. 25kV equipped.

All 777s are actually the same specification. A change to the specification would be the addition of guards panels or replacement of the cab door with plain frosted glass if the electronically induced transparency is not going to be used.

Battery and 25kV equipped units have additional capabilities but don’t become different beasts entirely. This is just a demonstration of their flexibility.

I'd not say there were any "non stations" on any part of the CLC other than Glazebrook. All are comparable to various Merseyrail stations and are only poorly used because they have long had a terrible service. In the end pretty much nobody will use an urban service that isn't at least 2tph when there is a decent bus alternative.

I only refer to them as non-stations because too many have been opened too close together throughout the 20th century in an attempt to increase usage, but in the process making the all stops DMU journey time unbearable and having the opposite effect. No one needs to be within walking distance of multiple stations unless their services go to different places, which on the CLC they don’t. Some of these also go too far into Metrolink territory to ever consider being used, especially the Man Utd platform and why isn’t there a station at Cornbrook which would be a genuinely useful interchange and eliminate the often long wait at Castlefield Junction?

 

[Pacef8]

You have to feel for the kids out at ince elton and other such island housing conurbations that miss out on city culture events . 45 mins from their door

 

[Bletchleyite]

I only refer to them as non-stations because too many have been opened too close together throughout the 20th century in an attempt to increase usage, but in the process making the all stops DMU journey time unbearable and having the opposite effect. No one needs to be within walking distance of multiple stations unless their services go to different places, which on the CLC they don’t. Some of these also go too far into Metrolink territory to ever consider being used, especially the Man Utd platform and why isn’t there a station at Cornbrook which would be a genuinely useful interchange and eliminate the often long wait at Castlefield Junction?

They are lald out such that people are generally within 500m of one, which is how you do urban transport without the need for a connecting bus service - 500m is recognised as the most people will generally walk. Half of Merseyrail is like that too for the same reason - some parts of the Southport and West Kirby lines must give you kittens.

The error wasn't opening the stations, it was failure to electrify it.

If it had a Merseyrail style service with 4tph of fast accelerating EMUs, or for that matter Metrolink, people would be all over it. Chassen Road is just like Aughton Park really - hardly a metropolis but people use it.

You have to feel for the kids out at ince elton and other such island housing conurbations that miss out on city culture events . 45 mins from their door

I do think extending to Helsby from Ellesmere Port is finishing a job that was never really finished properly. Third rail was said to be some sort of issue with sparks and the Stanlow site, but battery doesn't suffer that. It's also the easiest one to put in as a trial, as there are no buffers separating DMU and EMU at Ellesmere Port.

 

[D821]

It'll be interesting to see if the LCR authorities change their focus now that the Skelmersdale reopening looks like a non-starter.

 

[Class83]

Would they make wrexham ?

Surely Liverpool-Neston would be enough, then connect there to whatever TfW want to run to Wrexham as happens at Ormskirk. Direct trains to Liverpool from Upton, Heswall and Neston might well attract some commuters.

Though are there enough sets to run extensions?

 

[507020]

Surely Liverpool-Neston would be enough, then connect there to whatever TfW want to run to Wrexham as happens at Ormskirk. Direct trains to Liverpool from Upton, Heswall and Neston might well attract some commuters.

Though are there enough sets to run extensions?

When work has started to unsplit Kirkby and the priority is now to unsplit Ormskirk, Headbolt Lane and Ellesmere Port, they definitely won’t be considering splitting at Neston or anywhere on the Borderlands Line. No one would be happy about that.

It is a given that ANY extensions whatsoever will require the procurement of additional units. 52 777s replace 59 507s and 508s out of 76 originally built and of which 56 survive. This was not considered sufficient even for an extension as short as Kirkby - Headbolt Lane which led to 777053 being ordered as part of the Headbolt Lane package of spending.

 

[OutdoorM]

Would love to see a battery 777 on the Bidston - Wrexham line with top up charging occurring at several / all stations, its a perfect train for the job (even though no toilet) as it could connect Wrexham right through the Wirral peninsular into the loop line.

Hopefully, start at 1 per hour and rapidly ramp up to 30 min service subject to resolution with the cement quarry (the lack of reliable trains is killing the borderlands railway)

 

[507020]

Would love to see a battery 777 on the Bidston - Wrexham line with top up charging occurring at several / all stations, its a perfect train for the job (even though no toilet) as it could connect Wrexham right through the Wirral peninsular into the loop line.

Hopefully, start at 1 per hour and rapidly ramp up to 30 min service subject to resolution with the cement quarry (the lack of reliable trains is killing the borderlands railway)

If you’re going to have charging at most or all stations, you might as well have full electrification the cost of which will kill the proposal. I can’t see it needing more than 1 or 2 chargers along the route to work, one of those being Wrexham, bearing in mind the unit will start with a full battery at Bidston. Why exactly is the freight customer opposed to this?

 

[S&CLER]

Surely Liverpool-Neston would be enough, then connect there to whatever TfW want to run to Wrexham as happens at Ormskirk. Direct trains to Liverpool from Upton, Heswall and Neston might well attract some commuters.

Though are there enough sets to run extensions?

If you are going to split the Borderlands Line anywhere, Shotton would be better, as it would allow Merseyside to North Wales or v.v. with only one change.

 

[MattRat]

If you are going to split the Borderlands Line anywhere, Shotton would be better, as it would allow Merseyside to North Wales or v.v. with only one change.

Better yet, create a curve near Shotton to Chester so the batteries don't need as much range.

 

[507020]

Better yet, create a curve near Shotton to Chester so the batteries don't need as much range.

From which direction? Bear in mind the old triangular junction from the Bidston - Wrexham line to Chester Northgate and the CLC/Mid Cheshire Line, which was replaced with a change at Shotton for Chester General.

 

[MattRat]

From which direction? Bear in mind the old triangular junction from the Bidston - Wrexham line to Chester Northgate and the CLC/Mid Cheshire Line, which was replaced with a change at Shotton for Chester General.

The curve would connect up to Bidston, with the trains using the loop to change to a Chester service, then down to Chester and around via Shotton up to Bidston. You'd obviously have trains running in the opposite direction too for the full service.

However, if old infrastructure could also achieve a similar service, that's something to look into.

 

[snowball]

CLC and Rochdale 25kV electrification has already been announced.

I think they're still pretty tentative aren't they? More "being looked at".

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Yeah, that's good news and should if nothing else prevent random cancellations at Kirkby when a non battery unit got onto the wrong diagram!

Helsby anyone?

It would appear that the great and the good don't want it, despite the local MP and Council being in favour...https://www.cheshire-live.co.uk/new...nment-rejects-funding-bid-merseyrail-24767768

 

[507020]

It would appear that the great and the good don't want it, despite the local MP and Council being in favour...https://www.cheshire-live.co.uk/new...nment-rejects-funding-bid-merseyrail-24767768

The government can’t stop Ellesmere Port - Helsby like this. Now that all 777s will be battery fitted, they can just run one from Ellesmere Port to Helsby instead of laying over at Ellesmere Port and it’s done. No infrastructure work required, although the fleet might become a bit stretched if this is every half hour.

 

[MattRat]

The government can’t stop Ellesmere Port - Helsby like this. Now that all 777s will be battery fitted, they can just run one from Ellesmere Port to Helsby instead of laying over at Ellesmere Port and it’s done. No infrastructure work required, although the fleet might become a bit stretched if this is every half hour.

Which would require more trains, which costs more money. Not a lot mind, but if the government (DFT) won't hand it over, not much Merseyrail can do. And it does appear the Government are going through some sort of moody teenager phase right now, and refuse to clean the dishes...I mean, pay anyone anything that doesn't benefit MPs.

 

[507020]

Which would require more trains, which costs more money. Not a lot mind, but if the government (DFT) won't hand it over, not much Merseyrail can do. And it does appear the Government are going through some sort of moody teenager phase right now, and refuse to clean the dishes...I mean, pay anyone anything that doesn't benefit MPs.

I would argue that Ellesmere Port - Helsby is the only extension that could be considered achievable without extra trains. Although it would still be to the detriment of capacity on the rest of the network, the Northern service to Ellesmere Port could be cut back to Warrington Bank Quay and run with a 319, of which there are many, freeing up a Sprinter and eliminating Diesel running under the wires. Other Northern services could be concentrated entirely on Chester while passengers from Hooton to Helsby could avoid Chester entirely. What it effectively lacks is any passenger demand at intermediate stations, but it has potential for connections at Helsby and decarbonisation.

 

[Ribbleman]

The battery unit has done 83 miles without charging in tests, brings in Helsby, Wrexham, Preston, Wigan & Crewe into range if sustainable daily.

“Our new Merseytravel Class777 IPEMU (Independent Powered Electrical Multiple Unit) proved its strength after running 135 km fully loaded and without external current supply, which is much longer than we expected.’ via Joaquim Font Canyelles of #Stadler on @LinkedInUK”

That’s very good news. There’s a bit more involved at Ormskirk than just removing the buffer stops but the lack of need to recharge at Preston will strengthen the business case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s very good news. There’s a bit more involved at Ormskirk than just removing the buffer stops but the lack of need to recharge at Preston will strengthen the business case.

Though we still need to be very, very, very careful about the risk of importing delays from the likes of Castlefield (which is why Merseyrail isn't the solution for the CLC).

Preston once an hour would probably be fine, though, or as an initial step move the buffer stops to Burscough Junction, as that'd be less complex in signalling terms, and Burscough does these days have plenty of demand, having had lots of new homes added recently - really it's the new edge of the Liverpool conurbation in a way Ormskirk was years ago. That would also allow a unit to be taken out of the Blackpool/Ormskirk/Colne circuit without cutting services.

I'd also look at Wigan Wallgate sooner rather than later, as it might be easier to just build Headbolt Lane as a through station with a bridge with lifts if that was going to happen soon, and save the cost of building the separate Wigan platform.

 

[Bertie the bus]

That’s very good news. There’s a bit more involved at Ormskirk than just removing the buffer stops but the lack of need to recharge at Preston will strengthen the business case.

There is no business case to extend Merseyrail services to Preston. That is why it has been an ambition for 40-50 years and absolutely nothing has happened. Just because a battery train can theoretically reach Preston doesn't make the proposal any more sensible or realistic than it was in the 70s or 80s when the idea was first proposed.

 

[norbitonflyer]

There is no business case to extend Merseyrail services to Preston. That is why it has been an ambition for 40-50 years and absolutely nothing has happened. Just because a battery train can theoretically reach Preston doesn't make the proposal any more sensible or realistic than it was in the 70s or 80s when the idea was first proposed.

A battery train does make it more realistic, because no infrastructure costs are involved. You are simply replacing a diesel unit with a battery one (which will recharge on the rest of its route, from Ormskirk to Preston and back)
Ditto for Kirkby - Wigan

 

[Bletchleyite]

A battery train does make it more realistic, because no infrastructure costs are involved. You are simply replacing a diesel unit with a battery one (which will recharge on the rest of its route, from Ormskirk to Preston and back)
Ditto for Kirkby - Wigan

To be fair there are infrastructure costs of modifying the signalling to allow the buffer stops to be removed. Not super-expensive, but not zero either.

You would also need to realign the platform line at Ormskirk on the Preston side and modify the platform, because if I recall it doesn't quite line up with the Merseyrail line.

 

[Elecman]

I thought it does line up but a bit of work removing the buffer stops and realigning the 2 sets of tracks plus possibly some extra bonding of the running rails

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought it does line up but a bit of work removing the buffer stops and realigning the 2 sets of tracks plus possibly some extra bonding of the running rails

You'd also need two signals and an axle counter at Ormskirk (Rufford-Ormskirk is tokenless block using axle counters now), plus whatever you do to delimit the end of a track circuit from the Merseyrail side. And depending on exactly how the timetable works out you may even need a second platform or a reversing siding - I know I worked out a timetable for running Merseyrail to Burscough Bridge a while back, you could do 2tph with the single line still in place but there was no way to do it without either redoubling or a second Liverpool platform or reversing siding at Ormskirk, because the timings meant that the unit laying over would need to be at Ormskirk while the one coming from the Preston side went past to Liverpool.

 

[paddyb6]

It would certainly make sense to extend to Wigan from Kirkby, could a 777 fit in the bay at Wallgate? Seems rather short-sighted to not have a through line at Headbolt Lane for possible future extensions.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

You'd also need two signals and an axle counter at Ormskirk (Rufford-Ormskirk is tokenless block using axle counters now), plus whatever you do to delimit the end of a track circuit from the Merseyrail side.

It will cost more money engaging consultants to convince the DfT to hand the route over to Mersey Rail

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would certainly make sense to extend to Wigan from Kirkby, could a 777 fit in the bay at Wallgate?

Yes (though I think only a single one). And you'd probably want to tidy it up for level boarding to be possible - I seem to recall it's quite a bit higher at the building end than the other end.

Seems rather short-sighted to not have a through line at Headbolt Lane for possible future extensions.

Headbolt Lane's quite curious layout is specifically designed to allow for that to happen but without needing resignalling of the Wigan side now nor having to pay the cost of building a lift fitted footbridge as would be needed to make it work like Ellesmere Port. The Wigan side platform is basic and effectively temporary, and the walkway to the second Liverpool platform designed to be removed and replaced by a lift-fitted footbridge if/when through services were started.

 

[Wezz]

We're looking at atleast 10 years until Merseyrail are allowed to offer a direct service to Preston or Wigan, the DfT won't be interested if it helps Northern commuters.