Merseyrail 777 battery provision could see many extensions to the Merseyrail network?

[Ribbleman]

There is no business case to extend Merseyrail services to Preston. That is why it has been an ambition for 40-50 years and absolutely nothing has happened. Just because a battery train can theoretically reach Preston doesn't make the proposal any more sensible or realistic than it was in the 70s or 80s when the idea was first proposed.

Well, we will see. The main reason why Merseyrail services have not been extended to Preston has been the cost of electrification, whether it be 3rd rail or overhead. Battery operation is a game changer. There are more than 200,000 people living in the south of Sefton who could benefit from a cross platform interchange at Sandhills to get to Preston rather than go all the way into Liverpool. The time saving could be as much as 30 minutes. Then there is the enormous growth of population in Burscough to take into account.
Each of the routes mentioned is to be examined to determine costs and benefits of extension of existing Merseyrail services. If we are to work towards the elimination of diesel powered trains this is the sensible course of action.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Well, we will see. The main reason why Merseyrail services have not been extended to Preston has been the cost of electrification, whether it be 3rd rail or overhead. Battery operation is a game changer. There are more than 200,000 people living in the south of Sefton who could benefit from a cross platform interchange at Sandhills to get to Preston rather than go all the way into Liverpool. The time saving could be as much as 30 minutes. Then there is the enormous growth of population in Burscough to take into account.
Each of the routes mentioned is to be examined to determine costs and benefits of extension of existing Merseyrail services. If we are to work towards the elimination of diesel powered trains this is the sensible course of action.

If MerseyRail offerred to take them over and save on subsidy for the routes DfT might be interested

 

[adrock1976]

Though we still need to be very, very, very careful about the risk of importing delays from the likes of Castlefield (which is why Merseyrail isn't the solution for the CLC).

Preston once an hour would probably be fine, though, or as an initial step move the buffer stops to Burscough Junction, as that'd be less complex in signalling terms, and Burscough does these days have plenty of demand, having had lots of new homes added recently - really it's the new edge of the Liverpool conurbation in a way Ormskirk was years ago. That would also allow a unit to be taken out of the Blackpool/Ormskirk/Colne circuit without cutting services.

I'd also look at Wigan Wallgate sooner rather than later, as it might be easier to just build Headbolt Lane as a through station with a bridge with lifts if that was going to happen soon, and save the cost of building the separate Wigan platform.

Regarding Merseyrail for the CLC, I started a thread a few years ago about extending the Southport - Hunts Cross to Warrington Central calling all stations every 15 minutes, and for a Warrington Central - Man Airport calling all stations every 30 minutes (interworking with a Rochdale - Airport all stations via Ordsall Curve every 30 minutes - providing a local service between Airport and Deansgate every 15 minutes. Nothing else to use the Ordsall Curve - no east side of Pennines trains, no London trains, no Sussex Scot, and no loco hauled 442s).

The reason I had at the time suggested Warrington C - Airport was to take into consideration that Platform 5 at Oxford Road would disappear in the rebuilding also associated with Pic 13-16.

 

[Parjon]

There is no business case to extend Merseyrail services to Preston. That is why it has been an ambition for 40-50 years and absolutely nothing has happened. Just because a battery train can theoretically reach Preston doesn't make the proposal any more sensible or realistic than it was in the 70s or 80s when the idea was first proposed.

The Suez oil crisis occurring when it did, and knock on economic collapse of the UK, resulting in Merseyrail being left only half finished, doesn't mean there's no business case to finish it.

If it's not sensible to extend the service then why do more expensive diesel trains plough it already? Even if it was only hourly it would still surely make more sense?

Even with its current level of service it seems quite well used to me whenever I use it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Suez oil crisis occurring when it did, and knock on economic collapse of the UK, resulting in Merseyrail being left only half finished, doesn't mean there's no business case to finish it.

I've replied to this in a new thread:

Original 1972 Merseyrail proposals

The Suez oil crisis occurring when it did, and knock on economic collapse of the UK, resulting in Merseyrail being left only half finished, doesn't mean there's no business case to finish it. I have an old newspaper article dated March 7, 1972, and that says nothing about running to Preston...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Djgr]

Merseyrail=Liverpool City Region

If a geographical area has not decided to be part of this region then it is as likely to see a Merseyrail Electrics service extension as Hertfordshire or Essex is to see a London Underground extension.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail=Liverpool City Region

Ish. Ormskirk, Aughton Park and Town Green aren't in the LCR, nor are Capenhurst, Bache and Chester. No proposals exist to de-electrify and run DMU shuttles on these.

 

[Skie]

Merseyrail=Liverpool City Region

If a geographical area has not decided to be part of this region then it is as likely to see a Merseyrail Electrics service extension as Hertfordshire or Essex is to see a London Underground extension.

That’s really not how transport networks work. LCR has lots of neighbours and it wants to link into them with some form of transportation. They aren’t putting up walls!

 

[Wezz]

Merseyrail=Liverpool City Region

If a geographical area has not decided to be part of this region then it is as likely to see a Merseyrail Electrics service extension as Hertfordshire or Essex is to see a London Underground extension.

Not entirely, if another region thinks there is sufficient benefit then extensions can happen.

 

[D821]

Indeed. The Liverpool and Manchester CR mayors seem to work together on some of the projects and I'm sure I've read of discussions with Cheshire authorities.

 

[O L Leigh]

The battery unit has done 83 miles without charging in tests, brings in Helsby, Wrexham, Preston, Wigan & Crewe into range if sustainable daily.

“Our new Merseytravel Class777 IPEMU (Independent Powered Electrical Multiple Unit) proved its strength after running 135 km fully loaded and without external current supply, which is much longer than we expected.’ via Joaquim Font Canyelles of #Stadler on @LinkedInUK”

That's very positive, but I'd like to see this capability tested on a likely real-world diagram, complete with station stops, opening and closing the doors and the thermal load on the HVAC provided by a train full of warm bodies, to ensure that there is adequate time to fully replenish the batteries while still operating on the juice before hanging out the bunting.

 

[North-Valiant]

Is it dangerous to have battery trains run inside of tunnels?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it dangerous to have battery trains run inside of tunnels?

No. Why would it be?

 

[North-Valiant]

No. Why would it be?

Lithium batteries make a lot of smoke when they go off, would hate for that to happen in the confined space of a tunnel

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lithium batteries make a lot of smoke when they go off, would hate for that to happen in the confined space of a tunnel

Best ban all diesel trains from all tunnels then. How's the railway looking now?

 

[North-Valiant]

Best ban all diesel trains from all tunnels then. How's the railway looking now?

Oh I apologize, I didn't realize they ran diesel trains on Merseyrail

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh I apologize, I didn't realize they ran diesel trains on Merseyrail

The Merseyrail tunnels aren't any different to any other tunnels in terms of the risks posed if a lithium battery (or DMU) went up.

Merseyrail don't themselves run diesels, but the Network Rail MPVs do run in the tunnels and tunnel stations, though they have exhaust scrubbers.

 

[Skie]

Lithium batteries make a lot of smoke when they go off, would hate for that to happen in the confined space of a tunnel

The 507/508s already have lead acid batteries (arguably more toxic in a fire) and the 777/0s have batteries for depot movement. The 777/1s won’t be unique other than for the volume and type of batteries.

The issue with lithium batteries is they take huge volumes of water to extinguish when they truly go up. The LTO batteries used on these trains a better at resisting thermal runaway than other types.

 

[EngFocus]

Oh I apologize, I didn't realize they ran diesel trains on Merseyrail

Only RHTT trains can run in the tunnels with diesel locomotives. Regular passenger DMUs wouldn't be permitted to operate in the tunnels.

However I'm sure all the risk assessments have been done for battery operation and there will undoubtedly be failsafes in place to prevent fires, which in any event would be highly unlikely in the first place.

 

[Vespa]

Battery power 777 would make it much safer to extend the line Liverpool airport utilising the wide central reservations created for the tramway systen.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Ish. Ormskirk, Aughton Park and Town Green aren't in the LCR, nor are Capenhurst, Bache and Chester. No proposals exist to de-electrify and run DMU shuttles on these.

De-electrifying, no. No more than there are any proposals for the Central Line to be cut back to Loughton or the met to Moor Park. But look at what happened to the proposed Metropolitan Line extension to Watford Junction when TfL pulled the plug and Hertfordshire refused to stump up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Battery power 777 would make it much safer to extend the line Liverpool airport utilising the wide central reservations created for the tramway systen.

It wouldn't be hard to rejig around the airport to install a fully segregated line. There are a number of options. It helps that the area is somewhat "over-roaded".

A station for Speke could also help regenerate it a bit, it's a truly horrid place, makes both Kirkby and Skem look utopian.

 

[Pacef8]

Perhaps this would alter the need for a new platform at chester instead of the furthest away currently available.

 

[Vespa]

It wouldn't be hard to rejig around the airport to install a fully segregated line. There are a number of options. It helps that the area is somewhat "over-roaded".

A station for Speke could also help regenerate it a bit, it's a truly horrid place, makes both Kirkby and Skem look utopian.

Speke is a bit grim I will admit, I doubt the inmates residents will use the line, you would still have some anti social behavior problems, even the local postal delivery office looks like a fort spoke to the postmen working there, they lock the vans inside the garage overnight otherwise bricks would be chucked over and smash them, that's how bad it is they actually abuse the service that brings them their social benefits, best to travel to and from the airport in a segregated line as quick as possible.

*Whoever decided to put the airport there, never visited the area obviously.

 

[Bletchleyite]

*Whoever decided to put the airport there, never visited the area obviously.

These estates often weren't grim when they were first built. They often aren't down South because a wider mix of people live in them due to higher housing costs.

Edit: my estate looks basically the same as (a tidier version of) Speke and is, apart from the concrete flats, largely considered (lower) middle class. (Mostly middle class small business owners, i.e. builders and the likes, judging by the number of vans etc).

 

[Ribbleman]

Speke is a bit grim I will admit, I doubt the inmates residents will use the line, you would still have some anti social behavior problems, even the local postal delivery office looks like a fort spoke to the postmen working there, they lock the vans inside the garage overnight otherwise bricks would be chucked over and smash them, that's how bad it is they actually abuse the service that brings them their social benefits, best to travel to and from the airport in a segregated line as quick as possible.

*Whoever decided to put the airport there, never visited the area obviously.

I think it worth pointing out to those that don’t know the area, that the airport was there long before the housing estate, being established in 1930, though much expanded in recent times.

 

[Mikey C]

I think it worth pointing out to those that don’t know the area, that the airport was there long before the housing estate, being established in 1930, though much expanded in recent times.

It's like the (alleged) story of the American Tourist asking why the Queen built Windsor Castle so near to the noise from Heathrow Airport

 

[urbophile]

I think it worth pointing out to those that don’t know the area, that the airport was there long before the housing estate, being established in 1930, though much expanded in recent times.

This is going to get shunted into a different thread soon I'm sure. But in reply to this comment, slightly misleading because the original terminal buildings (now a hotel) are a long way away from the housing estate. And that itself dates from the 1930s: it was first proposed in 1930, first plans 1932, building commenced 1938. So more ore less contemporaneous with the airport which dates from 1935-1940.

As for Vespa's classist prejudices, the least said the better.

 

[8A Rail]

This is going to get shunted into a different thread soon I'm sure. But in reply to this comment, slightly misleading because the original terminal buildings (now a hotel) are a long way away from the housing estate. And that itself dates from the 1930s: it was first proposed in 1930, first plans 1932, building commenced 1938. So more ore less contemporaneous with the airport which dates from 1935-1940.

As for Vespa's classist prejudices, the least said the better.

The new runway at the present location was opened in 1966 as the existing runways near to the 1930's terminal, could not accommodate the larger aircraft that were coming on stream at the time. There was no where else nearby to build or extend a runway. Eventually because of the increase in traffic and needing a more purpose built building / facility the remainder of the airport facilities were moved / transferred to the existing site in 1986 and has expanded since.

As for the original comment by 'Vespa' -"Whoever decided to put the airport there, never visited the area obviously" has clearly not thought about it as where else you going to build it or the alternative would of been to close it altogether.

Most people who use the airport arrive there by the conventional road route from the A565 as per road directions therefore no need to go through the general area of Speke. The only people who go alternative routes would those who know the area and familiar with the alternatives routes to the airport which I am fully aware, as sometimes use them myself without any issues. As for the area of Speke, yes it has some problems but no different to some other areas in Merseyside or for that matter in other parts of the UK. Contrary to what is being portrayed, there are lot of good people in that area too.

 

[Vespa]

As for Vespa's classist prejudices, the least said the better.

Excuse me ? Nothing classist about it, not sure where you're getting that from ?

The "inmates" line through is actually tongue in cheek, there are good people in the area, it's just unfortunate that Speke is in fact not the best area, even the sorting office is set up like a fort, what does that tell you ? Class has nothing to do with it, I dont buy into the socialist worker viewpoint if that's what you're implying.

Are you familiar with the area ?

All I did was point out the potential of an extension to Speke airport and someone else made the comment on the area, the former tramway reservation can be utilised to metro standard with BEMU reducing third rail risk.

Can we stay on topic ?