Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Nicholas Lewis]

The weight is offset by the ability to use regen for all braking rather than only if another unit is in section and accelerating. That, not expansion, is the main reason.

That is a potential positive in avoiding the braking resistors being used but that would necessitate the units being set up to use the batteries every time they accelerate otherwise they won't be partially discharged to accept regeneration. Also this will significantly increase the cycling of the batteries compared to running a few stops beyond the electrified network and certainly degrade them faster than working them just off the juice. Be interesting to know whether this mode of operation minimise overall energy use given the network will be very receptive in the central area with frequency of trains. Shame we don't the technical inside knowledge these days that you would get from papers or presentations to learned institutions that i regularly read or heard through the 70/80's.

 

[Skie]

That is a potential positive in avoiding the braking resistors being used but that would necessitate the units being set up to use the batteries every time they accelerate otherwise they won't be partially discharged to accept regeneration. Also this will significantly increase the cycling of the batteries compared to running a few stops beyond the electrified network and certainly degrade them faster than working them just off the juice. Be interesting to know whether this mode of operation minimise overall energy use given the network will be very receptive in the central area with frequency of trains. Shame we don't the technical inside knowledge these days that you would get from papers or presentations to learned institutions that i regularly read or heard through the 70/80's.

It's actually better to charge batteries in small bursts than large ones, so them using some battery for acceleration and then regen on breaking will be kinder to them than taking them on long runs off-network and having to almost completely cycle them with a recharge at the terminus or when they get back onto the 3rd rail. Don't forget these are modern, temperature managed batteries, more akin to something in a Tesla than an early Prius or milk float

Yes regen should be reused by other trains in the core, but outside of the loop and link the trains will be unlikely to be able to dump power into a receptive network - hence why the batteries make such sense. The maths on maintenance, running costs etc. all works, hence why it's being done. Unless the DFT has a change of heart with their new masters.

 

[urbophile]

I thought some (all) of the units were capable of having pantographs fitted and become dual voltage third rail/ overhead compatible. I also understood that it was one or the other: batteries or pantographs. So has the idea of extending Merseyrail onto the City Line been abandoned? A shame if so.

 

[Skie]

I thought some (all) of the units were capable of having pantographs fitted and become dual voltage third rail/ overhead compatible. I also understood that it was one or the other: batteries or pantographs. So has the idea of extending Merseyrail onto the City Line been abandoned? A shame if so.

Yes, it’s batteries or 25kv.

Any expansion onto the City Line would require significant numbers of extra units to be worthwhile so there isn’t anything stopping it from happening with this, the battery trains would just remain on the existing network and unnelectrified extensions.

Is Helsby a given then?

Nothings a given, but I’d be amazed if it wasn’t served by Merseyrail trains in 5 years time.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

They got the funding for it as part of the City Region Sustainable Transport Settlement.

So the scheme was subject to a business case being made according to letter from Shapps to Rotherham on 29th July.

However, the following schemes will be retained by the Department in line with previous guidance and criteria, and will need to have their business cases agreed by DfT. Sponsorship teams will be confirmed to your officials for each scheme, who will be able to provide advice and support on taking schemes through the Department’s approval processes:
• Liverpool Baltic Rail Station (scheme value over £50m)
• IPEMU – Network Expansion (scheme value over £50m)

According to LCA the IPEMU has a very favourable BCR so wonder why DfT ring fenced these schemes as they gave LCA £100m's for other transport requests.

Still guess as the units are largely all constructed now they will be upgraded by Stadler locally if they secure the funding.

 

[MattRat]

Why not just order units and run more 8 car trains when we get to that point? There is already depot capacity for more than 53 units.

Because they've already stated they want less doubled up units, hence more standing room.

 

[Skie]

So the scheme was subject to a business case being made according to letter from Shapps to Rotherham on 29th July.

Yeah, it’s why I caveated my reply with DFTs new masters comment. The schemes are large chunks of public money so require more governance, plus they rely on other things happening that the DFT has control over, not Merseytravel. Like getting other TOCs to change their services as Merseyrail expands.

 

[Liverpool 507]

777049 is now sporting a small vinyl ‘M’ in addition to Metro branding at the front of both front ends, beneath the ‘M‘ lighting. Photo is available on Mersey Railways closed Facebook group. No link available.

 

[Vespa]

I thought some (all) of the units were capable of having pantographs fitted and become dual voltage third rail/ overhead compatible. I also understood that it was one or the other: batteries or pantographs. So has the idea of extending Merseyrail onto the City Line been abandoned? A shame if so.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility to have extra units with 25kv capability added and designate them as 777 2xx series with a separate depot on the city line possibly Edge Hill shed, Kirkdale won't be big enough for both 777 1xx and 777 2xx series.

A spur has already been cut near Central station to future proof any expansions to Edge Hill.


It's down to that old thing called money.

 

[karlbbb]

777049 is now sporting a small vinyl ‘M’ in addition to Metro branding at the front of both front ends, beneath the ‘M‘ lighting. Photo is available on Mersey Railways closed Facebook group. No link available.

I wonder if there was a lot of feedback from the public about lack of branding?

As for the other comments a couple of pages back about the public wanting to keep the 507/508s - absolute nonsense. As I daily user I've heard countless comments from other passengers talking amongst themselves wishing the new trains were in service. This happens a lot as we go past Kirkdale and see the new units just sat taunting us! Certainly I can't wait for the units to come into service. They look great and I'm hoping we might get another open day to keep the hype alive as I'm still yet to set foot on one after having missed the last two opportunities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

777049 is now sporting a small vinyl ‘M’ in addition to Metro branding at the front of both front ends, beneath the ‘M‘ lighting. Photo is available on Mersey Railways closed Facebook group. No link available.

So "Merseyrail" is dead as predicted, then? Shame.

 

[AlexNL]

I wonder if there was a lot of feedback from the public about lack of branding?

It's not uncommon for trains to be delivered painted but unbranded, with small things like logos getting applied only shortly before entry into service.

 

[Liverpool 507]

777049 with it’s new front end branding this morning at Hightown. Platform extension works have also started on the Southport bound platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks. I wonder if the name will die entirely, or if we'll see Merseyrail return to being a brand for "all rail in the city region" made up of Metro and Northern services, like it used to be but more recently hasn't? Would be sad to see such a well established brand go in favour of a generic one used everywhere.

 

[AlexNL]

777049 with it’s new front end branding this morning at Hightown. Platform extension works have also started on the Southport bound platform.

It looks a bit squeezed in.

I think I would've liked it more if it had just been the (M), with the middle of the circle matching the pointy bit of the M above.

(I'm nitpickish)

 

[Djgr]

Thanks. I wonder if the name will die entirely, or if we'll see Merseyrail return to being a brand for "all rail in the city region" made up of Metro and Northern services, like it used to be but more recently hasn't? Would be sad to see such a well established brand go in favour of a generic one used everywhere.

My take is that there is a long-term plan to replace the use of "Mersey" with Liverpool City Region. After all Mersey essentially refers to Merseyside, which only existed as an administrative county for 12 years and was disbanded (by Maggie) nearly 40 (!) years ago.

On a separate note, I would suggest that Class 777s operating out of the LCR (apart from the existing Lancs/Cheshire bits) is highly unlikely. Certainly not to the likes of Bescar Lane and Ince and Elton.

 

[Skie]

A Metro branded 777 render did slip out almost 2 years ago, about the same time that the Walrus card was replaced by the Metro card.

It’ll just get called Mersey Metro anyway, buggering up any plans to drop Mersey from things

 

[Bletchleyite]

My take is that there is a long-term plan to replace the use of "Mersey" with Liverpool City Region. After all Mersey essentially refers to Merseyside, which only existed as an administrative county for 12 years and was disbanded (by Maggie) nearly 40 (!) years ago.

So Merseyrail only operated under Merseyside County for about 5 years then? Crikey. Of course the brand has existed for 35 more years since and also I think may have existed before the County did, I'm sure I've seen pictures of trains at Liverpool Exchange with Merseyrail written on them, but without the old "loop line" logo that I think was the County's doing. Personally I think it's a better brand than referring everything to one city.

I don't doubt there's an enthusiasm in some circles to avoid the old "Miseryfail" adage, though...

On a separate note, I would suggest that Class 777s operating out of the LCR (apart from the existing Lancs/Cheshire bits) is highly unlikely. Certainly not to the likes of Bescar Lane and Ince and Elton.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the latter because it's an easy full scale trial (rather than just Headbolt Lane) not requiring knocking any buffers down and would only require one unit to do that.

I doubt Burscough South Curve will ever be reinstated. If anything I'm starting, with Burscough playing host to lots of housing development which you could milk for planning gain, to favour the idea of a "Burscough West Lancashire Parkway" being built where the lines cross, and it'd be a lot cheaper, plus Burscough is an origin rather than a destination so it being out of town doesn't matter that much (and in fact I reckon it's less of a walk to town than from the end of a 12-car to Bletchley town centre). Then your 777s to Preston could connect nicely with your Sprinters to Southport and Manchester without breaking established patterns.

 

[urbophile]

My take is that there is a long-term plan to replace the use of "Mersey" with Liverpool City Region. After all Mersey essentially refers to Merseyside, which only existed as an administrative county for 12 years and was disbanded (by Maggie) nearly 40 (!) years ago.

On a separate note, I would suggest that Class 777s operating out of the LCR (apart from the existing Lancs/Cheshire bits) is highly unlikely. Certainly not to the likes of Bescar Lane and Ince and Elton.

'Merseyside', irrespective of its political status, is and has been a recognisable geographical region for a very long time. If 'Greater Liverpool' takes off as a concept (has 'Greater Manchester',really?) then the term could be sidelined. But it is much less of a mouthful than Liverpool City Region.

The outer limits of the network must surely be defined by the bladder capacity of the average older passenger. Toiletless trains on 60minute plus journeys are not to be welcomed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The outer limits of the network must surely be defined by the bladder capacity of the average older passenger. Toiletless trains on 60minute plus journeys are not to be welcomed.

Helsby is no further than Chester, nor is Southport via Ormskirk (unlikely) any longer than the other way. Preston is a bit further but it would be (just) under an hour. Warrington C probably half an hour. I can't see the Borderlands going further than Shotton if it even got that far. I don't think any long ones are actually being proposed, Preston is probably the furthest one that is even vaguely likely, and I'd not be that surprised to see it just being a shifting of the buffers to Burscough, given that that is the furthest out the Liverpool commuter area really goes (Scouse accents are still very prevalent there but not in Rufford or Croston) and it'd mean a single unit/crew hourly DMU service to Preston could easily run without the awkward interworking at Preston.

 

[MattRat]

Helsby is no further than Chester, nor is Southport via Ormskirk (unlikely) any longer than the other way. Preston is a bit further but it would be (just) under an hour. Warrington C probably half an hour. I can't see the Borderlands going further than Shotton if it even got that far. I don't think any long ones are actually being proposed, Preston is probably the furthest one that is even vaguely likely, and I'd not be that surprised to see it just being a shifting of the buffers to Burscough, given that that is the furthest out the Liverpool commuter area really goes (Scouse accents are still very prevalent there but not in Rufford or Croston) and it'd mean a single unit/crew hourly DMU service to Preston could easily run without the awkward interworking at Preston.

You've also got to think about passenger flows. I doubt Liverpool want people travelling to places other than Liverpool, and if you can travel from Ormskirk to Southport or vice versa, then people probably wouldn't go to Liverpool on that line.

 

[Djgr]

'Merseyside', irrespective of its political status, is and has been a recognisable geographical region for a very long time. If 'Greater Liverpool' takes off as a concept (has 'Greater Manchester',really?) then the term could be sidelined. But it is much less of a mouthful than Liverpool City Region.

The outer limits of the network must surely be defined by the bladder capacity of the average older passenger. Toiletless trains on 60minute plus journeys are not to be welcomed.

Except the die has already been cast, it is Liverpool City Region not Merseyside. This makes it clear that it is indeed a political entity geographically centred on a city.

As someone who lives in it I would argue that locals don't use the term Merseyside much. They would say they live in Hoylake or in West Wirral or near Liverpool. Those showing their age or imagined social status might even say Cheshire.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except the die has already been cast, it is Liverpool City Region not Merseyside. This makes it clear that it is indeed a political entity geographically centred on a city.

As someone who lives in it I would argue that locals don't use the term Merseyside much. They would say they live in Hoylake or in West Wirral or near Liverpool. Those showing their age or imagined social status might even say Cheshire.

With a nod to Greater Manchester and a total inability to pronounce it, how about SWLNWC*?

* South West Lancashire and North West Cheshire, sort of aping SELNEC PTE which is what TfGM was called for a bit, itself standing for South East Lancashire and North East Cheshire and a heck of a lot more pronounceable!

 

[Djgr]

So Merseyrail only operated under Merseyside County for about 5 years then? Crikey. Of course the brand has existed for 35 more years since and also I think may have existed before the County did, I'm sure I've seen pictures of trains at Liverpool Exchange with Merseyrail written on them, but without the old "loop line" logo that I think was the County's doing. Personally I think it's a better brand than referring everything to one city.

I don't doubt there's an enthusiasm in some circles to avoid the old "Miseryfail" adage, though...



I wouldn't be surprised to see the latter because it's an easy full scale trial (rather than just Headbolt Lane) not requiring knocking any buffers down and would only require one unit to do that.

I doubt Burscough South Curve will ever be reinstated. If anything I'm starting, with Burscough playing host to lots of housing development which you could milk for planning gain, to favour the idea of a "Burscough West Lancashire Parkway" being built where the lines cross, and it'd be a lot cheaper, plus Burscough is an origin rather than a destination so it being out of town doesn't matter that much (and in fact I reckon it's less of a walk to town than from the end of a 12-car to Bletchley town centre). Then your 777s to Preston could connect nicely with your Sprinters to Southport and Manchester without breaking established patterns.

Operationally E. Port to Helsby makes sense. It's just that you only have the destinations of Stanlow and Thornton (or presumably you don't), Ince and Elton and then Helsby itself (which worryingly I discover is described by Wikipedia as a village) with a population of around 5,000.

And so to avoid transporting only hot air you are reliant on traffic from off the branch that is prepared to change. But I am struggling to think of meaningful (and credible) traffic flows.

 

[urbophile]

With a nod to Greater Manchester and a total inability to pronounce it, how about SWLNWC*?

* South West Lancashire and North West Cheshire, sort of aping SELNEC PTE which is what TfGM was called for a bit, itself standing for South East Lancashire and North East Cheshire and a heck of a lot more pronounceable!

Easy if you're Welsh (I'm not!): Soolnook.

Operationally E. Port to Helsby makes sense. It's just that you only have the destinations of Stanlow and Thornton (or presumably you don't), Ince and Elton and then Helsby itself (which worryingly I discover is described by Wikipedia as a village) with a population of around 5,000.

And so to avoid transporting only hot air you are reliant on traffic from off the branch that is prepared to change. But I am struggling to think of meaningful (and credible) traffic flows.

Circular service from Lime Street (low level) to Lime Street (high level) via Runcorn and South Parkway? Though that would mean triple-purpose EMUs able to run on 3rd rail, battery and overhead.

 

[Ilovetrains43]

Can someone tell me what trains have been delivered and what trains still need to be delivered/built and when they are expected to enter use with Merseyrail and oust the 507 and 508 fleets.

 

[MattRat]

Operationally E. Port to Helsby makes sense. It's just that you only have the destinations of Stanlow and Thornton (or presumably you don't), Ince and Elton and then Helsby itself (which worryingly I discover is described by Wikipedia as a village) with a population of around 5,000.

And so to avoid transporting only hot air you are reliant on traffic from off the branch that is prepared to change. But I am struggling to think of meaningful (and credible) traffic flows.

It does however make operational sense, as you essentially use the same train that currently goes Ellesmere Port, and the train that currently serves Ellesmere Port and Helsby can be cut as Helsby from that direction is served by the trains that go to Chester, and then not only does that free up capacity, those units can then be used or cascaded elsewhere, or probably scrapped in the case of any 150s used.

 

[The_Train]

Has 140 made it to the UK yet?

 

[43096]

Has 140 made it to the UK yet?

Not yet. It's currently part of Stadler's display at the Innotrans exhibition in Berlin.

 

[8A Rail]

Updated list of current location of the UK Class 777's in the light of transfer of 001 and 008 to Kirkdale from Crewe last week. I was in South West Scotland when the mid week transfer took place by the usual four Class 20's.

Kirkdale C.S. = 001, 003, 007, 008, 009, 010, 013, 015, 018 and 049.
Crewe C.S. = 002, 004, 005, 006, 012, 014, and 016.