Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[DavidPowell]

Hello David. It’s very nice to hear that you’ve taken the time to read through this very much unofficial conversation. Earlier in the fleet replacement programme I noted just how well you were able to answer all kinds of 777 related questions on Twitter.

I’m sure everyone would indeed be interested in a running commentary, especially at this stage with a 2022 introduction mooted. An irregularity I’ve noticed recently is that 777003 and 013 have been stabled in the wallside siding at Southport for a week or so as an 8 car, despite 8 cars not being able to fit in any of the platforms!

I also hope to draw your attention to the TfW Class 197 Civity DMU thread, where there seems to be an obsession with ordering more of these aforementioned Spanish Diesel units to replace the Class 230s on the Bidston - Wrexham line, whether or not they ever enter service, with almost no consideration for the popular proposal of more battery 777s and a through service to Liverpool round the loop.

We couldn’t possibly ask for anything more than the facts from an industry professional. So this is still the plan. 52 new 777s replace 59 old 507/508s, not all of which still exist and an additional unit ordered as part of the Headbolt Lane package, with 7 of the now 53 units carrying batteries.

I do believe the “all units will be battery fitted for the purposes of regenerative braking when running on the 3rd rail” actually came from the journalists at a certain newspaper, so that is quite poor. The level of efficiency required for such battery use to be viable seemed dubious to me.

A few points in here:

1. Happy to chat on Twitter as long as people recognise that it’s me in a professional capacity. Same here.

2. Eight car units are part of the future and there is a project underway to address the locations where they don’t currently fit which contains a variety of works. It’s as much to do with signal sighting as platform lengths. There have been some pretty inaccurate rumours about these works over the years.

3. Bidston-Wrexham line is a candidate for IPEMU operation and there’s a logic to extending Class 777 operation here, not least the benefit of a direct service. The immediate future of the route is a choice for our friends at TfW and yes we do talk to each other!

4. Your analysis of fleet size is correct.

5. Batteries and regen braking aren’t the same thing but it’s easy to understand how non-technical journalists can get them muddled up. The situation has probably been confused by the fact that all of the original 52 units are fitted with a shunt battery which gives a range of a few hundred metres at low speed. This was done to enable the shed facilities at Kirkdale to be designed as unnelectrified.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Torrential rain yesterday forced its way into the interior of my 50x through the hopper windows and round the door seals between Chester and Hooton.
Hopefully something else that won't happen on the 777s.

 

[DavidPowell]

Hello David, I understand that 52 units were ordered to replace 57 old trains on the basis that faster journeys equates to fewer units needed.

How much of that speed enhancement necessary was contingent on the dispatch efficiency of DOO versus the better acceleration of the trains?

Also, is there any word on exercising more options to expand the network?

The journey time improvement is primarily down to improved acceleration and braking. We never envisaged a decreased dwell time but what we have to avoid is a meaningful increase. I think that the deal struck between Merseyrail and the RMT will deliver that but there’s only one way to find out now…..

Torrential rain yesterday forced its way into the interior of my 50x through the hopper windows and round the door seals between Chester and Hooton.
Hopefully something else that won't happen on the 777s.

There are no hopper windows and there have been no problems of water ingress at doorways during testing (other than the bleeding obvious). That said it’s always fun when sliding doors come into contact with the real world of passengers….

 

[Bletchleyite]

The journey time improvement is primarily down to improved acceleration and braking. We never envisaged a decreased dwell time but what we have to avoid is a meaningful increase.

That's quite interesting, because I've always perceived DOO to be a bit quicker, because the time spent opening the local door to check the platform first (maybe 1-2 seconds) and the time taken for "ding ding, ding ding" (probably again 2 seconds or so) isn't there, and also won't be in the pseudo-DOO (guards effectively acting as dispatchers) proposal for the 777 operation. 4-5 seconds isn't a long time, but on something like a Southport or a Chester it really adds up.

It's certainly increased over the years, though. I definitely remember 2 minutes being added to the Ormskirk run when hustle alarms and guard operation from the saloon were added. It's now nearly 10 minutes slower than it was when the system opened.

 

[Mollman]

5. Batteries and regen braking aren’t the same thing but it’s easy to understand how non-technical journalists can get them muddled up. The situation has probably been confused by the fact that all of the original 52 units are fitted with a shunt battery which gives a range of a few hundred metres at low speed. This was done to enable the shed facilities at Kirkdale to be designed as unnelectrified.

Thank you David for your input, I am guessing that the shunting batteries do not prevent conversion of the 777s to duel voltage (Overhead & 3rd Rail) in the future?

 

[DavidPowell]

Thank you David for your input, I am guessing that the shunting batteries do not prevent conversion of the 777s to duel voltage (Overhead & 3rd Rail) in the future?

No they don’t prevent conversion. The thing that we cannot achieve is dual voltage (750V 3rd rail, 25kV overhead) and IPEMU. There isn’t enough space on the train.

 

[paddyb6]

Evening all, to confirm, which of the 777s will be IPEMUs, and will these be the /1 subclass?
Thanks very much

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder that this is a non-speculative thread to discuss updates regarding Merseyail 777s; any posts of a speculative nature belong in the Speculative Discussion section please.

Some posts have been moved to:

Could we see dual voltage 777 trains through the unused tunnel spur to run through to the City Line?

moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/merseyrail-class-777.153458 No they don’t prevent conversion. The thing that we cannot achieve is dual voltage (750V 3rd rail, 25kV overhead) and IPEMU. There isn’t enough space on the train. Assuming you're able to utilise the...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

5. Batteries and regen braking aren’t the same thing but it’s easy to understand how non-technical journalists can get them muddled up. The situation has probably been confused by the fact that all of the original 52 units are fitted with a shunt battery which gives a range of a few hundred metres at low speed. This was done to enable the shed facilities at Kirkdale to be designed as unnelectrified.

What's the installed battery power and capacity of the BEMU 777's?

How much recuperation energy do you expect to recover from braking for a normal station stop vs energy to accelerate to line speed?

 

[Vespa]

How many has completed their fault free mileage and in theory ready to go into service ?

 

[karlbbb]

I appreciate David likely won't be able to comment on this directly, but does anyone else know if we have now passed the "final hurdle" following yesterday's date that means driver training could start very soon?

 

[Mollman]

No they don’t prevent conversion. The thing that we cannot achieve is dual voltage (750V 3rd rail, 25kV overhead) and IPEMU. There isn’t enough space on the train.

Great, thanks David

 

[Sam 76]

I appreciate David likely won't be able to comment on this directly, but does anyone else know if we have now passed the "final hurdle" following yesterday's date that means driver training could start very soon?

Can I ask what happened yesterday that makes it closer

 

[M28361M]

Merseyrail announced today that the Kirkby line will be reduced from 4 to 3 trains per hour from Monday.

Due to ongoing preparations for the launch of the new fleet of trains, there will be changes to services on the Kirkby line in the coming weeks.

From Monday 14 November services will be reduced from four trains per hour to three between 07:00 and 19:00.

Kirkby

Everything you need to know about Kirkby train station including timetables, ticket prices, maps, facilities and parking

www.merseyrail.org

Looking at RTT, the cancelled trains seem to be replaced with ECS workings between Kirkdale depot and Kirkby. Training runs? Or more testing?

 

[DavidPowell]

That's quite interesting, because I've always perceived DOO to be a bit quicker, because the time spent opening the local door to check the platform first (maybe 1-2 seconds) and the time taken for "ding ding, ding ding" (probably again 2 seconds or so) isn't there, and also won't be in the pseudo-DOO (guards effectively acting as dispatchers) proposal for the 777 operation. 4-5 seconds isn't a long time, but on something like a Southport or a Chester it really adds up.

It's certainly increased over the years, though. I definitely remember 2 minutes being added to the Ormskirk run when hustle alarms and guard operation from the saloon were added. It's now nearly 10 minutes slower

How many has completed their fault free mileage and in theory ready to go into service ?

17

What's the installed battery power and capacity of the BEMU 777's?

How much recuperation energy do you expect to recover from braking for a normal station stop vs energy to accelerate to line speed?

How many has completed their fault free mileage and in theory ready to go into service ?

17

What's the installed battery power and capacity of the BEMU 777's?

How much recuperation energy do you expect to recover from braking for a normal station stop vs energy to accelerate to line speed?

Battery capacity is measured in energy. Each 4 car IPEMU has 320 kWh provided by 6t of batteries split evenly between the two end cars

 

[karlbbb]

Merseyrail announced today that the Kirkby line will be reduced from 4 to 3 trains per hour from Monday.

Kirkby

Everything you need to know about Kirkby train station including timetables, ticket prices, maps, facilities and parking

www.merseyrail.org

Looking at RTT, the cancelled trains seem to be replaced with ECS workings between Kirkdale depot and Kirkby. Training runs? Or more testing?

Merseyrail have confirmed on their Twitter it's for 777 testing: https://twitter.com/merseyrail/status/1590748800724918277

Hi John, this is a temporary change to allow test runs of the new 777s before they enter service. As soon as we have any further updates on how long this will last, we will ensure customers are informed. we apologise for any inconvenience this may cause to you

Given the ASLEF vote closed yesterday, I'm assuming it's a good sign that the 777s are now going to be running up and down the Kirkby line every hour. I would further guess these slots could actually be driver training.

 

[D821]

The Liverpool Echo are reporting this too, but seem to have neglected to mention it's affecting only the Kirkby line:

Changes to Merseyrail timetable in preparation for new trains

New trains expected to start arriving on the network soon

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

 

[Jordangreen130]

....

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Jane English Acting MD MerseyRail was at the LCA Transport Committee yesterday. One councillor asks about when are we getting the 777's (around 56mins)

https://liverpoolcityregion-ca.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/660370/start_time/610000

Well they will be coming to the Kirby Line first and we are working hard to get them introduced but no date offered. She does wax lyrical about what a good train they are having been for a ride on one of them - lucky for her but what about the 1.5M people that live in the LCA region and have paid for them through a surcharge on their council tax.

 

[DJH1971]

Heard on the grapevine that the drivers have voted against the offer..

The 777's will never enter service at this rate.

They might as well ditch the temporary amended timetable then.

 

[Sam 76]

The 777's will never enter service at this rate.

They might as well ditch the temporary amended timetable then.

. I assumed that the announcement of the temporary timetable was because the deal had gone through but who knows

 

[Bertie the bus]

Jane English Acting MD MerseyRail was at the LCA Transport Committee yesterday. One councillor asks about when are we getting the 777's (around 56mins)

https://liverpoolcityregion-ca.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/660370/start_time/610000

Well they will be coming to the Kirby Line first and we are working hard to get them introduced but no date offered. She does wax lyrical about what a good train they are having been for a ride on one of them - lucky for her but what about the 1.5M people that live in the LCA region and have paid for them through a surcharge on their council tax.

I like the bit where she is talking about the battery trains and says they should be saying to the rest of the country 'Look at what we're doing. It's fantastic'. Don't come and look too soon though because you'll just see a load of new units stored in the open at Kirkdale depot where they have been for a couple of years.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I like the bit where she is talking about the battery trains and says they should be saying to the rest of the country 'Look at what we're doing. It's fantastic'. Don't come and look too soon though because you'll just see a load of new units stored in the open at Kirkdale depot where they have been for a couple of years.

one councillor asked how much it was costing to store the units around the UK seems she doesn't realise some are still in Europe - she referred them to the new trains team as they have to cover the cost

 

[supervc-10]

Battery capacity is measured in energy. Each 4 car IPEMU has 320 kWh provided by 6t of batteries split evenly between the two end cars

That seems like a very heavy battery. That's roughly 6 times the battery in an average EV car, in terms of kWh, and they certainly don't weigh a tonne! The 55kWh battery option in the VW ID.3 weighs 206kg.

Is the battery chemistry different from the Lithium Ion batteries used in most EVs? To make them last longer?

 

[MattRat]

That seems like a very heavy battery. That's roughly 6 times the battery in an average EV car, in terms of kWh, and they certainly don't weigh a tonne! The 55kWh battery option in the VW ID.3 weighs 206kg.

Is the battery chemistry different from the Lithium Ion batteries used in most EVs? To make them last longer?

Consider how bad EV pickups and SUVs are at towing. Now increase that weight to the weight of a train. It has to be different batteries, otherwise they'd burn out near instantly just from the weight of the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Consider how bad EV pickups and SUVs are at towing. Now increase that weight to the weight of a train. It has to be different batteries, otherwise they'd burn out near instantly just from the weight of the train.

I'm not sure where to start with this as pretty much none of it has any basis in fact.

 

[supervc-10]

EVs are fine at towing- they just use a lot of charge, just like a petrol car uses a lot of fuel when towing. Because an EV is less wasteful in general, there is a greater comparative loss from the energy used in towing. The same goes for high-speed driving on the motorway.

Think about it this way - if you have a car towing a caravan for 100 miles, to overcome the drag etc let's say you use 50kWh of energy, and for just the car it's 25kWh (obviously not accurate figures). For an electric car, it's just that energy. For a petrol car, it's used that 50kWh or 25kWh, plus 50kWh of wasted energy pumping air through the engine, wasted in heat, etc etc. So a petrol car towing a caravan has used 100kWh of energy towing and 75kWh by itself. The electric car has a bigger impact on range when towing as more of the energy is used going directly into moving the vehicle, whereas a petrol car wastes half it's energy.

It's the energy storage- the 320kWh that @DavidPowell talked about - that sounds very heavy. 5 times as heavy as a car's battery. There are multiple different battery chemistries but my expectation was that these were Lithium cells, as they have a good energy density and reasonable long-term reliability (with proper thermal management).

(having typed all of that before @Bletchleyite replied... I think he might have had the better idea!)

 

[Skie]

It's the energy storage- the 320kWh that @DavidPowell talked about - that sounds very heavy. 5 times as heavy as a car's battery. There are multiple different battery chemistries but my expectation was that these were Lithium cells, as they have a good energy density and reasonable long-term reliability (with proper thermal management).

The weight probably also accounts for the cooling of the battery too (which is usually built into the packs to some degree), which would need to be beefy considering the increased voltages involved for a train vs a car. The increased voltages alone may require bigger batteries so they are less energy dense than an EV, but some of the science around that is beyond me!

 

[dm1]

The battery chemistry on an EV is different to that of a train.

EVs generally use Li-ion chemistries that are designed to maximise range while taking into account that the average car spends most of its time stationary. The volume and mass considerations are also somewhat different.

As far as I know, Stadler use LTO chemistries for their battery packs, which have a slightly lower energy density, but cope far better with being constantly charged and discharged at high rates, such as during regenerative braking or during acceleration.

 

[Energy]

which would need to be beefy considering the increased voltages involved for a train vs a car.

Yes and no, the power loss equation is P(loss) = (P^2)R/(V^2) so the greater the voltage (and less the current following P=IV) the lower the power losses

The battery configuration will likely to be get the voltage which the train uses, most evs are configured to somewhere around 400v or 800v.

As far as I know, Stadler use LTO chemistries for their battery packs, which have a slightly lower energy density, but cope far better with being constantly charged and discharged at high rates, such as during regenerative braking or during acceleration.

Seems correct, the 6 tonnes for 320kwh matches up with LTO batteries and their long life characteristics make sense for a train.