Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Sheldonian]

Any imminent danger of any new 777s arriving in the country?

 

[karlbbb]

Are Stadler struggling for parts? Seem like 777015 has been sat there a while - a good few weeks, maybe more - with plastic covering the hole from the stolen headlight!

Also saw 777004 on a Kirkby run this morning with the standard PIS issues with all external destination boards displaying "OUT OF SERVICE".

 

[OL-3944]

There doesn’t seem to be any end in sight of the current problems. If anything as the 777s accumulate mileage they are now experiencing faults with the door motors.

The relationship ship with Merseytravel/ Stadler seems to be going bitter. Stadler are now blaming the crews/training/infrastructure for the current problems and likewise Merseytravel are disputing this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There doesn’t seem to be any end in sight of the current problems. If anything as the 777s accumulate mileage they are now experiencing faults with the door motors. The relationship ship with Merseytravel/ Stadler seems to be going bitter. Stadler are now blaming the crews/infrastructure for the current problems and likewise Merseytravel are disputing this.

Faults with the door motors? Aren't these standard kit fitted to every single FLIRT the world over? What's different?

 

[Sam 76]

There doesn’t seem to be any end in sight of the current problems. If anything as the 777s accumulate mileage they are now experiencing faults with the door motors.

The relationship ship with Merseytravel/ Stadler seems to be going bitter. Stadler are now blaming the crews/training/infrastructure for the current problems and likewise Merseytravel are disputing this.

That’s the last thing anyone needs. There’s zero point arguing on what causes it. They need to work together to sort this soon especially with the soon to be rapid withdrawal of the 508s before the end of the year not to mention Headbolt Lane

 

[OL-3944]

Faults with the door motors? Aren't these standard kit fitted to every single FLIRT the world over? What's different?

That I’m not sure about.

I was at Central over the weekend and the Kirkby 777 was waiting on platform 1. I observed that the doors close by themselves after about 10-15 seconds. And with the constant stream of passengers coming down the escalators the door’s literally must of open/closed about 10 times (on different carriages). before the train departed.

Maybe there just wearing out compared to the old stock where the doors are all open especially at busy stations.

 

[karlbbb]

That’s the last thing anyone needs. There’s zero point arguing on what causes it. They need to work together to sort this soon especially with the soon to be rapid withdrawal of the 508s before the end of the year not to mention Headbolt Lane

Absolutely. It does seem odd that the 777s are having so many issues if we compare to many of the other Stadler units. The 777s can't be that different, can they?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That I’m not sure about.

I was at Central over the weekend and the Kirkby 777 was waiting on platform 1. I observed that the doors close by themselves after about 10-15 seconds. And with the constant stream of passengers coming down the escalators the door’s literally must of open/closed about 10 times (on different carriages). before the train departed.

Maybe there just wearing out compared to the old stock where the doors are all open especially at busy stations.

This is totally normal in Germany, where FLIRTs are widely used, and the DOO approach relies mostly on the interlock, with the doors closing pretty much after each passenger boards and the driver just pressing a button to lock the doors once they're all closed that way.

Absolutely. It does seem odd that the 777s are having so many issues if we compare to many of the other Stadler units. The 777s can't be that different, can they?

There do seem to be a lot of custom features which so far have been the ones causing problems, e.g. relating to the rather complex PIS, but to hear of door motors causing issues when the same door motors will be present on every other FLIRT of the thousands out there is a bit strange.

 

[OL-3944]

As we speak there is a broken down 777 at Sandhills causing major disruption. Door / Sliding step fault.

 

[The_Train]

Is there any reason why they decided to go for individual door opening instead of the whole lot being opened with the press of a driver/guard button? Presumably air con related in some way but any other reasons for it?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Neither these or 230s are NEW though. And both have ended up either being given up on or scaled back . Here's hoping Merseyrail nip these 777 things in the bud and send them packing elsewhere! Give me a 50x any day of the week!

Merseytravel (the owners) are stuck with 777s till mid-century at least.
Stadler don't have a reputation for unfit trains, quite the reverse, so I expect they will make them work.
Class 323s didn't have a good start, but it turned out well in the end.
158s had their problems too.

 

[315801]

777012 is no longer stabled at New Brighton, it was moved I think on friday night after services had finished for the day because I passed there in my car at about 22:50 on friday night and 777012 was not there.

I do not know where the unit moved to, however, I was informed by my other half that she had read that there were gangs of teenagers hanging around the station and with it being new to the area merseyrail don't want it damaged in any way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there any reason why they decided to go for individual door opening instead of the whole lot being opened with the press of a driver/guard button? Presumably air con related in some way but any other reasons for it?

Why wouldn't they? London Underground aside, it's only every single other train in the UK that does that. It's the default.

It's necessary for aircon unless you like wasting money re-cooling after every station.

 

[The_Train]

Why wouldn't they? London Underground aside, it's only every single other train in the UK that does that. It's the default.

It's necessary for aircon unless you like wasting money re-cooling after every station.

Because it is a system that people have become accustomed to on the Merseyrail network and a system that has never been a problem for that network. So why change something that works? I mean, the door faults may have occurred anyway, but it's strange how a network that has changed the door operation is now experiencing door based faults with it's new trains

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because it is a system that people have become accustomed to on the Merseyrail network and a system that has never been a problem for that network. So why change something that works? I mean, the door faults may have occurred anyway, but it's strange how a network that has changed the door operation is now experiencing door based faults with it's new trains

As I already stated, these door mechanisms are the same as any other FLIRT, there are thousands of them and all of them work like this.

The reason is, as already noted, energy saving from air conditioning in summer and heating in winter. And passenger comfort - sitting waiting to depart at Ormskirk on a cold day requires one's big coat.

 

[Sam 76]

Merseytravel (the owners) are stuck with 777s till mid-century at least.
Stadler don't have a reputation for unfit trains, quite the reverse, so I expect they will make them work.
Class 323s didn't have a good start, but it turned out well in the end.
158s had their problems too.

Exactly this. They are known for good quality trains and I’m sure over time the 777s will join the list. I suspect the sheer amount of technology compared to the older units is probably a contributing factor but over time the problems will be ironed out

 

[507020]

777012 is no longer stabled at New Brighton, it was moved I think on friday night after services had finished for the day because I passed there in my car at about 22:50 on friday night and 777012 was not there.

I do not know where the unit moved to, however, I was informed by my other half that she had read that there were gangs of teenagers hanging around the station and with it being new to the area merseyrail don't want it damaged in any way.

I made a rare visit to New Brighton last night and can confirm there was not a 777 stabled there.

Because it is a system that people have become accustomed to on the Merseyrail network and a system that has never been a problem for that network. So why change something that works? I mean, the door faults may have occurred anyway, but it's strange how a network that has changed the door operation is now experiencing door based faults with it's new trains

Note that the all doors opening method of operation may have been inherited from the Class 502 and 503 units, with no need seen to change this in the 1970s, meaning there is over 80 years of precedent for all doors opening, rather than having to press a button.

The efficiency of the air conditioning and matching the trains in rest of the country are both perfectly valid reasons to have doors opened with a button that automatically close before departure, however I can see 2 very significant problems with how this is currently set up.

The door timer is set much too short, so unless there is a near constant stream of passengers boarding or alighting the train, the doors are closed almost immediately after they have opened. Particularly at Kirkby and Liverpool Central where the swells are longer, I have noticed multiple passengers rushing dangerously down the stairs/escalator after seeing the doors close, when the unit is not going anywhere for 10+ minutes. I’m surprised the efficiency of the air conditioning is prioritised over the risk of injuries.

I suspect that if the doors remained open for even twice as long before automatically closing, there could be as much as a 90% reduction in door motor usage. Even if the design of the mechanism is absolutely perfect and utterly free from faults, mechanical wear and material fatigue is still a factor and contributes not insignificantly to whole life maintenance costs.

Also, my main complaint about passenger comfort on the 777s, the air conditioning temperature is always set way too hot, both heating too much in winter and not cooling enough in summer. This was evident as far back as the open day at Birkenhead North and does not seem to have been rectified. If the temperature was set lower all year round, then perhaps the doors remaining open longer would be less of an issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The door timer is set much too short, so unless there is a near constant stream of passengers boarding or alighting the train, the doors are closed almost immediately after they have opened. Particularly at Kirkby and Liverpool Central where the swells are longer, I have noticed multiple passengers rushing dangerously down the stairs/escalator after seeing the doors close, when the unit is not going anywhere for 10+ minutes. I’m surprised the efficiency of the air conditioning is prioritised over the risk of injuries.

That's simply because people aren't used to it. When they know how it works they won't.

It would help if PRM TSI allowed a different tone to be used for autoclose than dispatch, but sadly it doesn't.

 

[jamesst]

777012 is no longer stabled at New Brighton, it was moved I think on friday night after services had finished for the day because I passed there in my car at about 22:50 on friday night and 777012 was not there.

I do not know where the unit moved to, however, I was informed by my other half that she had read that there were gangs of teenagers hanging around the station and with it being new to the area merseyrail don't want it damaged in any way.

Wide of the mark im afraid. There's overnight possessions of new brighton platforms and sidings all this week hence the need for the unit to be moved.

 

[507020]

Exactly this. They are known for good quality trains and I’m sure over time the 777s will join the list. I suspect the sheer amount of technology compared to the older units is probably a contributing factor but over time the problems will be ironed out

The reality is that the 777s having been built by Stadler simply are one of the highest quality pieces of new rolling stock in this country currently, however, there have been on average less than 5 examples in service, for part of the day, some days, for less than 6 months and as such they remain extremely unfamiliar to all those concerned.

It is a sheer inevitability that such early teething problems will be rectified in time for both the opening of Headbolt Lane and the withdrawal of 508s, followed by 507s.

That's simply because people aren't used to it. When they know how it works they won't.

I still suggest that the door timer is extended. How does it compare to that on a Class 195/331 unit which passengers may also have encountered? I will be timing both of them myself at my next opportunity.

 

[Skie]

I don’t think the doors need to auto-close at underground stations, given the temps down there tend to remain pleasant all year round.

Temp wise onboard, I’d prefer less of a drastic difference from outside. Nobody gets on a train in winter dressed for summer temps, nor do they get on a train in summer dressed for the winter, so the onboard temperatures should be reasonably close to comfortable whilst being on the cooler side in winter and hotter side in summer. Air con helps massively in summer by removing the humidity which makes it much more tolerable, and it should be used to stop the greenhouse effect heating the train rather than trying to freeze the passengers.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Because it is a system that people have become accustomed to on the Merseyrail network and a system that has never been a problem for that network. So why change something that works? I mean, the door faults may have occurred anyway, but it's strange how a network that has changed the door operation is now experiencing door based faults with it's new trains

I have a horrible thought - blame the passengers. Is it possible that the doors are being held open or pushed open more often because they keep closing on people approaching the doors ?. If so this is something that will bed in as people learn to use the buttons instead. As others have said - Stadler are known for their high quality.

I don’t think the doors need to auto-close at underground stations, given the temps down there tend to remain pleasant all year round.

Temp wise onboard, I’d prefer less of a drastic difference from outside. Nobody gets on a train in winter dressed for summer temps, nor do they get on a train in summer dressed for the winter, so the onboard temperatures should be reasonably close to comfortable whilst being on the cooler side in winter and hotter side in summer. Air con helps massively in summer by removing the humidity which makes it much more tolerable, and it should be used to stop the greenhouse effect heating the train rather than trying to freeze the passengers.

I agree, too often the airconditioning is set to something extreme for the time of year. My local Wetherspoons was so cold in the summer that we used to take a coat so we could relax in their summer cold.

 

[Sam 76]

I don’t think the doors need to auto-close at underground stations, given the temps down there tend to remain pleasant all year round.

Temp wise onboard, I’d prefer less of a drastic difference from outside. Nobody gets on a train in winter dressed for summer temps, nor do they get on a train in summer dressed for the winter, so the onboard temperatures should be reasonably close to comfortable whilst being on the cooler side in winter and hotter side in summer. Air con helps massively in summer by removing the humidity which makes it much more tolerable, and it should be used to stop the greenhouse effect heating the train rather than trying to freeze the passengers.

I would agree with that. Not so much at all underground stations but at ones such as Central where they terminate it would probably be better if they stayed open

 

[yorkie]

I've created a thread to discuss how Merseyrail 777s could be improved:

Merseyrail Class 777: How could these units be improved?

From the class 777 updates thread, I see some people are posting suggestions for how these units could be improved; I've set this thread up so that the other thread can concentrate on updates. Obviously this is is subjective and not everyone is going to agree, but if you have any suggestions...

www.railforums.co.uk

Whether it be changes to the aircon, doors or anything else; feel free to post your suggestions there.

The creation of that new thread should ensure this thread remains on the topic of updates regarding the introduction of the new trains.

 

[DJH1971]

What I put earlier was the wrong thread.

Sorry.

 

[karlbbb]

Another glut of issues this morning on the Kirkby line. Looking at OTT and it seems there's still only 2 trains running services despite the issues starting over an hour ago.

 

[OL-3944]

Spoke to my friend yesterday who works there. There train failed and the Drivers displays (which look like large tablet screens) went blank and then rebooted to a command prompt screen presumably waiting for an input from a keyboard or whatever Stadler use. The units appear to be running on Linux.

 

[karlbbb]

Spoke to my friend yesterday who works there. There train failed and the Drivers displays (which look like large tablet screens) went blank and then rebooted to a command prompt screen presumably waiting for an input from a keyboard or whatever Stadler use. The units appear to be running on Linux.

Better than running Windows!

I've noticed on a few units that, under braking, there is a squeal/interference coming through the PA speakers. I'm assuming it's interference from the regen braking but it feels a bit...janky, almost like a bad earth or something along those lines.


EDIT: Monday 12th June:
Another morning, another fault. 2G24 just went out of service at Sandhills - presume this will be doors/PIS related.
I also think a second unit just faulted at Sandhills, 2G66 stopped then was sent into the siding as 5G66.

 

[142 007]

777 005 is still at West Kirby,
Its been there since before Easter,
Not sure if it has moved at all

 

[karlbbb]

There only seems to be one 777 out on the Ormskirk lines today. Have there been further issues? Definitely missing out on the air conditioning in this weather!