Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[nigelsporne]

Battery technology had been around for many years albeit on a smaller scale. You would have thought that the principle was well understood. Are the batteries man enough for the job, are they being charged sufficiently during normal operation or what? Do these units have to effectively be plugged in at the depot after their shift? Would it be an idea to extend the Kirkby diagram to Hunts Cross now and again to allow more time for charging? If Merseyrail wants to expand its system in the future it needs to get this problem sorted.

 

[L401CJF]

I'm told the 777/1s have had a software update and were running alright yesterday morning at least. Not sure if the whole day was fine or not. I believe most of the issues with the battery units is down to the power changeover from DC to battery (or vice versa) rather than the actual battery setup etc.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I'm told the 777/1s have had a software update and were running alright yesterday morning at least. Not sure if the whole day was fine or not. I believe most of the issues with the battery units is down to the power changeover from DC to battery (or vice versa) rather than the actual battery setup etc.

Pedant alert: batteries are DC, so there's no 'conversion' necessary.

 

[nigelsporne]

The trouble with software these days is that it tends to be over complicated. As a consequence you end up with the possibilities of unknown interactions within a program which can lead to problems. In my day we adopted the KISS principle (keep it simple stupid). This may take a bit of working out as other train manufacturers have found out! Hopefully it will get sorted sooner rather than later and the public end up with a system they can rely on.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Big day for the 777s today as all Chester and Ellesmere port Services have come out as 777s. let’s hope they all make it though the day

Thursday (16/11/2023) morning Chester 07:48-09:42 we observed (in order)
777004 permanent fixture with red lights attached since the previous night or earlier
507014,
507031,
507030,
777001,
777005,
507004,
507015.

So only 2 out of 7 actually 777s.

It was 777007. [according to the delay report] GSMR was not set up on it and signaller couldn't contact the driver.

777004 has also had a wobble at Chester this morning leading to 2 777s on the platform at the same time.

Yes 777004 yesterday eve (16:45 on 16/11/2023) 777004 still stuck at Chester.

We had a few short rides on the 777s. The information screens are pointless. Could not judge the seats - not noticeable after a few steps.
The 507s are tired but aright with information you can read while seated.

 

[paddyb6]

777004 yesterday eve (16:45 on 16/11/2023) 777004 still stuck at Chester.

Departed Chester this lunchtime on 5T64.

 

[Prime586]

The trouble with software these days is that it tends to be over complicated. As a consequence you end up with the possibilities of unknown interactions within a program which can lead to problems. In my day we adopted the KISS principle (keep it simple stupid). This may take a bit of working out as other train manufacturers have found out! Hopefully it will get sorted sooner rather than later and the public end up with a system they can rely on.

That's what offline Functional Entity Testing (testing each compiled software module offline using scripted inputs for all known valid and error conditions) and full-scale Unit Integration Testing (where you load all the deliverable software modules onto a representative model hardware rig and feed it with either scripted or manual inputs to simulate the running of the train) are for before delivery to the customer. I would have liked to think that Stadler were doing at least some form of pre-delivery testing of any software updates, but on the evidence so far I wouldn't be suprised if they aren't.

About the only thing on the 777s that is new to Stadler is the bettery charging and power management system. The drive control, comms, door/step modules and PiS are all items that are basically off the shelf (either from Stadler or their subcontractors) and just needed to be integrated together, which they have apparently done successfully on other units. Quite why the 777s have displayed such a wide variety of show-stopping faults is something Merseytravel should be pressing them for answers for.

Regarding Mr Rotheram's comments about pursuing compensation from Stadler for the 777s poor performance, that should have been written into the contract from the start via penalty clauses based on the number or severity of faults or unit availability over a set time period. It's standard practiice in customer contracts for software deliveries on the systems I've worked on.

 

[Bikeman78]

Not much of an option as they're getting older all the time and they do have their issues with lack of spare parts.

They have been getting older since the day they were built! The obvious solution for spare parts is to strip some of the scrap units for spares to keep the other going. Does that happen these days?

 

[Peter Sarf]

They have been getting older since the day they were built! The obvious solution for spare parts is to strip some of the scrap units for spares to keep the other going. Does that happen these days?

I do wonder how many parts can come from scrapped 313s and 315s - plenty ?.

 

[L401CJF]

Pedant alert: batteries are DC, so there's no 'conversion' necessary.

Apologies I didn't make it clear. I meant DC as in the 3rd rail, I'm not entirely sure what happens during the changeover exactly other than the shoe gear lifts/lowers.

Thinking back a while, I seem to recall it mentioned somewhere that they were to use batteries even when on 3rd rail mode to help save energy or something. I can't for the life of me remember where this was mentioned. Possibly on this forum somewhere? Not sure if this is the case or not.

 

[Sam 76]

Steve Rotherham has put on twitter that the 777s will be on Southport services “in the coming weeks”

 

[Vespa]

Steve Rotherham has put on twitter that the 777s will be on Southport services “in the coming weeks”

Going to be the one to watch as it probably the longest run of all the lines Hunts Cross to Southport, more potential for issues.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Going to be the one to watch as it probably the longest run of all the lines Hunts Cross to Southport, more potential for issues.

In terms of passenger journeys, yes, with Hunts Cross - Southport being just under 1h 10m, however, the trains running Chester routes have journey times of ~1h 30m, as they go round the loop instead of terminating.

Chester - Chester = ~32 stops (Not sure about Capenhurst's stopping pattern)
Hunts Cross - Southport = 22 stops

 

[Bikeman78]

In terms of passenger journeys, yes, with Hunts Cross - Southport being just under 1h 10m, however, the trains running Chester routes have journey times of ~1h 30m, as they go round the loop instead of terminating.

Chester - Chester = ~32 stops (Not sure about Capenhurst's stopping pattern)
Hunts Cross - Southport = 22 stops

Typically only half the trains stop when they run every 15 minutes. Evenings and Sundays everything stops in both directions. I think some trains still miss out Green Lane or Bromborough Rake though not both as was the case a year ago.

 

[8A Rail]

Steve Rotherham has put on twitter that the 777s will be on Southport services “in the coming weeks”

They already on there but not in service, they are called training runs for many many drivers and guards, which includes training class rooms too. Still take much into next year but the whole system to taken over by Class 777's.

 

[emoaconr]

Typically only half the trains stop when they run every 15 minutes. Evenings and Sundays everything stops in both directions. I think some trains still miss out Green Lane or Bromborough Rake though not both as was the case a year ago.

All trains now call at Green Lane and Bromborough Rake.

 

[paddyb6]

All trains now call at Green Lane and Bromborough Rake.

Chesters don't call at Green Lane on Sunday.

 

[Luke McDonnell]

Are all Chester service now 777 as was supposed to be last week but a few 507s turned up due to the failure has that been resolved now?

 

[FrodshamJnct]

So far a pleasant commute into Liverpool this morning on a 777, though the announcements are all out of whack: arriving at Bromborough it thought we were at Bache. Guard having to do announcements just after the automatic ones.

 

[L401CJF]

So far a pleasant commute into Liverpool this morning on a 777, though the announcements are all out of whack: arriving at Bromborough it thought we were at Bache. Guard having to do announcements just after the automatic ones.

I caught one the other day on an Ellesmere Port service that announced before Hooton "please change here for services to Ellesmere Port" (or similar) rather than Chester! Luckily the announcements are so quiet most probably wouldn't notice.

I also had another one on the Ormskirk line were the interior light kept going on and off at random.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also had another one on the Ormskirk line were the interior light kept going on and off at random.

They are designed for the ceiling lights to turn on and off based on exterior brightness, i.e. off when in sunlight and on when in tunnels or when it's dark. Not all of them seem to have this switched on. I can see how this might result in a bit of "on and off" at dusk, though a timer is designed in so they should stay on for a few seconds when on.

I think the luggage rack ones remain on all the time.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Steve Rotherham has put on twitter that the 777s will be on Southport services “in the coming weeks”

Good development; then they'll be able to work network-wide and we only need to wait for a few more to be accepted before the PEP-dervs can get gone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good development; then they'll be able to work network-wide and we only need to wait for a few more to be accepted before the PEP-dervs can get gone.

I'm no "PEP-derv", I don't really like either, but the things need to be reliable before any more PEPs are scrapped, or the service is just going to become an unusable joke.

 

[TheSel]

Steve Rotherham has put on twitter that the 777s will be on Southport services “in the coming weeks”

Going to be the one to watch as it probably the longest run of all the lines Hunts Cross to Southport, more potential for issues.

In connection with this, the now-usual planned cancellations (removal from timetable) are now in place on the Southport line.

This from Merseyrail:

Amendments to the Southport and Hunts Cross lines from Saturday 18 November
Following the introduction of the new Class 777 trains onto the Merseyrail network, temporary timetable changes are being made to the Hunts Cross and Southport lines to assist with driver training.

From Saturday 18 November some services will be cancelled. The cancelled services are as follows:

On Mondays-Fridays, there will be four trains cancelled from Southport to Hunts Cross (12:39, 17:24, 19:54, 22:54). There will be two trains cancelled from Hunts Cross to Southport (13:51, 18:36), and one train from Liverpool South Parkway to Southport cancelled (21:07).

On Saturdays there will be four trains cancelled from Southport to Hunts Cross (12:39, 13:39, 17:24, 18:09). The 20:39 service from Southport to Hunts Cross will start at Sandhills at 21:21. There will be four trains cancelled from Hunts Cross to Southport (13:51, 14:51, 18:36, 19:21).

There are no cancellations on Sundays.

Passengers should check the journey planner before they travel.

Link here: https://www.merseyrail.org/journey-...y/southport-driver-training-timetable-amends/

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'm no "PEP-derv", I don't really like either, but the things need to be reliable before any more PEPs are scrapped, or the service is just going to become an unusable joke.

derv meaning derivative, of course
I feel like you can't say PEP on its own these days before the pedants remind you that they're not PEPs

 

[43096]

derv meaning derivative, of course
I feel like you can't say PEP on its own these days before the pedants remind you that they're not PEPs

It’s called being accurate (or precise, if you prefer).

 

[Bletchleyite]

derv meaning derivative, of course

I thought it was a new term for bashers/fans I'd missed

 

[507021]

It isn't pedantry to say the 313/4/5 and 507/8s aren't PEPs, it's a fact. As for the legacy fleet "getting gone", the number of accepted 777s won't matter one jot until the platform alteration works at Southport have been completed. In fact, Merseytravel shouldn't be accepting any more of the dreadful things until Stadler get them working reliably and consistently.

 

[Jamesrob637]

In connection with this, the now-usual planned cancellations (removal from timetable) are now in place on the Southport line.

This from Merseyrail:

Amendments to the Southport and Hunts Cross lines from Saturday 18 November
Following the introduction of the new Class 777 trains onto the Merseyrail network, temporary timetable changes are being made to the Hunts Cross and Southport lines to assist with driver training.

From Saturday 18 November some services will be cancelled. The cancelled services are as follows:

On Mondays-Fridays, there will be four trains cancelled from Southport to Hunts Cross (12:39, 17:24, 19:54, 22:54). There will be two trains cancelled from Hunts Cross to Southport (13:51, 18:36), and one train from Liverpool South Parkway to Southport cancelled (21:07).

On Saturdays there will be four trains cancelled from Southport to Hunts Cross (12:39, 13:39, 17:24, 18:09). The 20:39 service from Southport to Hunts Cross will start at Sandhills at 21:21. There will be four trains cancelled from Hunts Cross to Southport (13:51, 14:51, 18:36, 19:21).

There are no cancellations on Sundays.

Passengers should check the journey planner before they travel.

Link here: https://www.merseyrail.org/journey-...y/southport-driver-training-timetable-amends/

At least that means no cancellations from Liverpool to Southport between 17h and 19h, since the 18:36 from Hunts Cross won't reach the centre of Liverpool until after 7pm.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They are designed for the ceiling lights to turn on and off based on exterior brightness, i.e. off when in sunlight and on when in tunnels or when it's dark. Not all of them seem to have this switched on. I can see how this might result in a bit of "on and off" at dusk, though a timer is designed in so they should stay on for a few seconds when on.

I think the luggage rack ones remain on all the time.

I know in other situations the continued on/off cycling can be resolved/alleviated. As I understand it there would be one outside light level triggering the lights to go on but another higher outside light level required to turn it back off. That means there is a range of light levels where nothing would turn on but would stay on if already on. Same thing possible with thermostats, say a setting of 19 degC - that would actually be <= 18.75 degC on but >= 19.25 degC off.