Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Bletchleyite]

As far as I'm aware, the Class 508 units has two older style compressors, while the Class 507s has the more modern compressor. Also, the lights on the Class 508 go out when crossing the third-rail gap, whereas Class 507 do not.

Interesting, does that mean 507s have a bus-line but 508s don't?

 

[WatcherZero]

Been announced the sixth class 777 to be delivered will be a battery prototype, they've apparently ruled out installing batteries on the majority of the fleet because it adds 5 tonnes and would reduce performance though they will have the ability to temporarily store regenerative braking energy. The fleet will all have passive provision for adding 25kv overhead line capability.

 

[Domh245]

When you say battery prototype, presumably that is referring to mainline capable batteries, rather than the depot batteries that they are supposed to have?

Stadler brochure

– Powerful train batteries allowing depot movements independently of power supply; units are designed to allow later installation of energy storage systems

 

[Bletchleyite]

The obvious target for fitting a few units with batteries and retaining on a self-contained diagram would be extending services from Ellesmere Port to Helsby to allow the Northern service to be withdrawn and give the stations a proper service.

 

[WatcherZero]

When you say battery prototype, presumably that is referring to mainline capable batteries, rather than the depot batteries that they are supposed to have?

Stadler brochure

Yeah, presumably the depot batteries power is running off the regenerative braking storage system.

 

[507021]

Been announced the sixth class 777 to be delivered will be a battery prototype, they've apparently ruled out installing batteries on the majority of the fleet because it adds 5 tonnes and would reduce performance though they will have the ability to temporarily store regenerative braking energy. The fleet will all have passive provision for adding 25kv overhead line capability.

That's interesting, I wonder where it will be used?

 

[MarkyT]

A comparatively small 'depot battery' might also be used to store braking energy and provide an acceleration boost at any sites where power is constrained by voltage drop. It might avoid some substation expense and particularly retrofitting them with facilities for accepting and reusing regen braking energy. Alternatively, to save train weight, the substations might incorporate energy storage systems.

 

[D365]

Alternatively, to save train weight, the substations might incorporate energy storage systems.

That’s being looked into with an initiative in the Kent region.

 

[MarkyT]

That’s being looked into with an initiative in the Kent region.

I remember reading about LU looking into trackside storage years ago. They were investigating flywheel storage connected to the power system at stations.

Aha! here's a link to the story:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/kinetic-energy-storage-wins-acceptance.html

Kinetic energy storage wins acceptance
01 Apr 2004
The ability of KESS to support line voltage, regenerate braking energy and provide uninterrupted supplies at stations has now been demonstrated on urban railways in London, New York, Lyon and Tokyo

Colin Tarrant, Technical Director, Urenco Power Technologies Ltd

FLYWHEEL energy storage is an old concept, but it is only in recent years that technology used by the nuclear industry in high-speed gas centrifuges has been adapted to produce a commercially available high-speed flywheel suitable for rail applications.

RATP in Paris is the latest operator to use a Kinetic Energy Storage System (KESS) supplied by Urenco Power Technologies. Located at Fort d'Aubervilliers substation on Line 7, it will be used to support the line voltage while equipment in the substation is renewed.

A series of trials by London Underground took place in 2000-01 on a 2·8 km test track between South Ealing and Northfields. Three 100 kW KESS units connected in parallel were installed at Northfields substation, and three 1996 Jubilee Line cars with regenerative braking were used for the trials. The three KESS units could absorb braking energy and reduce power requirements during acceleration (RG 4.01 p241). The trials also proved that KESS performance could be accurately modelled...

 

[urpert]

Evening all,

It is my understanding that this is to do with European regulation.

Someone in the know made a fleeting comment that this was the reason but I didn't get the chance to ask any more info.

For the number takers around, you may be interested to know that I hear it will be mandated for trains to feature that really long numbering system along the sole bar (it's the UIC mark I believe and wiki can tell you more).

When? Not sure. But some people might need a larger note book to get all those numbers in .

Belgian stock carries the UIC number but also a ‘local’ shorter number with a line through it!

 

[WatcherZero]

I remember reading about LU looking into trackside storage years ago. They were investigating flywheel storage connected to the power system at stations.

Aha! here's a link to the story:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/kinetic-energy-storage-wins-acceptance.html

Exciting times for North West utilities, Cadent (British Gas) has now decided to proceed with the £900m HyNet project and has begun raising funds. The project involves extracting Hydrogen from natural gas on a commercial scale storing the carbon back underground in the exhausted oil fields off Liverpool (pump Co2 in to the voids created from extraction at high pressure and it reacts with the rock and solidifies), adding 10-20% hydrogen to the domestic gas supply of Cheshire, Merseyside and Greater Manchester and selling the rest offering industrial users the option of a 100% hydrogen supply. Meanwhile another company Orsted (formerly known as DONG Energy, wonder why they changed that name?) is constructing a 20MW storage facility in Liverpool (picking up from another company that built the grid connections and got planning permission before going under), it will trickle charge overnight when energy prices are lowest then output for an hour in peak when grid energy prices are highest. There is already a 10MW/5MWh storage facility in Cleator, Cumbria attached to a windfarm, Centrica is building a 49MW battery in Cumbria on the site of a former power station and im sure I saw another company was planning loads of dispersed 1MW batteries to manage urban demand. Elsewhere in the country GE is planning a 48MW storage in the Midlands, a 10MW in Sheffield opened this year, theres a 200kwh one in the North East and Drax and a couple of other power stations are planning batteries to manage demand.

 

[northwichcat]

The obvious target for fitting a few units with batteries and retaining on a self-contained diagram would be extending services from Ellesmere Port to Helsby to allow the Northern service to be withdrawn and give the stations a proper service.

No reason why you'd have to remove the soon to start peak time only Ellesmere Port to Manchester service, an all day Merseyrail service could operate alongside it. Many stations get a peak time service from an operator which doesn't serve them in the off-peak period.

 

[MarkyT]

Exciting times for North West utilities

I'm certain energy storage in many forms, small or large scale, on vehicles, in the home, in the grids, will be the transformational paradigm that finally makes a 100% renewables future viable. Those massive 1970s pumped storage hydro schemes were truly ahead of their time at grid level but we need much much more. Embedded storage everywhere.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes, I do worry though, Cobalt, Lithium salt and Nickel used in Lithium batteries are all finite resources, some countries have already banned the export of them as strategic resources. 65% of Cobalt comes from The Congo and at present extraction rate it will be exhausted in 100 years (and demand is increasing exponentially with the amount of world supply used for batteries rising from 50% to 60% over the last decade) Lithium is really common but rarely occurs in high concentration, theres only about 8 places around the world where its possible to extract significant quantities and they are expected to be exhausted by 2100. Nickel extraction already exploded during the 20th century and we now mine 2m tonnes a year however there is only 78m tonnes of reserves.

If we spend the next 25 years making it the technological bedrock of our society with todays 22% annual increase in usage then we are dooming ourselves to a price spiral to the point it may very quickly become uneconomic technology forcing us to go back to previous technologies and/or forcing a economic divide on technology between developed and developing world.

 

[James James]

Yes, I do worry though, Cobalt, Lithium salt and Nickel used in Lithium batteries are all finite resources, some countries have already banned the export of them as strategic resources. 65% of Cobalt comes from The Congo and at present extraction rate it will be exhausted in 100 years (and demand is increasing exponentially with the amount of world supply used for batteries rising from 50% to 60% over the last decade) Lithium is really common but rarely occurs in high concentration, theres only about 8 places around the world where its possible to extract significant quantities and they are expected to be exhausted by 2100. Nickel extraction already exploded during the 20th century and we now mine 2m tonnes a year however there is only 78m tonnes of reserves.

If we spend the next 25 years making it the technological bedrock of our society with todays 22% annual increase in usage then we are dooming ourselves to a price spiral to the point it may very quickly become uneconomic technology forcing us to go back to previous technologies and/or forcing a economic divide on technology between developed and developing world.

As those materials become more expensive, developing alternative technologies will become more financially viable. I personally wouldn't worry about running out, since we probably won't depend on such batteries in e.g. 50 years. AFAICR supercapacitors without rare metals are possible (just not yet viable), and there are alternative battery technologies being researched.

E.g. current ideas are around using batteries for on-train power storage, or using batteries for on-grid power storage (with transmission to the train via catenary). We all know how hydropower based storage is limited by geography, but there's plenty of research into hydraulic energy storage that could replace on-grid batteries (which would lead to catenary being needed as opposed to wire-free trains, but if batteries are sufficiently expensive then building wiring is financially viable). And that's only if we don't end up developing cheaper batteries or supercapacitors.

 

[whhistle]

Yes, I do worry though...

If we spend the next 25 years making it the technological bedrock of our society it may very quickly become uneconomic forcing us to go back to previous technologies.

Why think about going back?
That's why we evolve. We'll just find something new to exploit. Nobody will ever go back to what was before as nobody wants to admit we got it wrong.

Not sure why you worry though?
We'll all be dead long before it really affects us.

 

[WatcherZero]

I don't know about you but I still plan on being alive in 25 years. In fact ive probably got a good 70 years left in me.

 

[DanNCL]

Rail magazine have published an image of what is supposedly the first body shell being built in Hungary.

https://www.facebook.com/171809916245172/posts/1805819729510841/

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Rail magazine have published an image of what is supposedly the first body shell being built in Hungary.

https://www.facebook.com/171809916245172/posts/1805819729510841/

Looks weirdly square... obviously it's early days, mind.

 

[Mikey C]

Looks weirdly square... obviously it's early days, mind.

Yes its proportions remind me of one of those old horse drawn trams!

 

[Doomotron]

How about this for the resources for batteries running out and lack of electrification in the UK? Fit a generator to an axle so when the train moves, it generates its own power, technically meaning it never needs to refuel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes its proportions remind me of one of those old horse drawn trams!

I don’t think that is a UK FLIRT, the shape is totally wrong.

 

[DanNCL]

I don’t think that is a UK FLIRT, the shape is totally wrong.

That's what I thought when I first saw it, however it has come from what is usually a reliable source.

 

[mmh]

777s aren't FLIRTs, they're Stadler "METRO"s. One version is in service in Berlin and has a strikingly square roofline - https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/BVG-Baureihe_IK

https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/products/detail/underground-trains/

 

[mmh]

As an aside, 777 is a "silly" TOPS class to give them for another reason - an imagine search for "class 777" returns nothing but thousands of pictures of business class aircraft seats

 

[dp21]

Rail magazine have published an image of what is supposedly the first body shell being built in Hungary.

https://www.facebook.com/171809916245172/posts/1805819729510841/

Definitely not a 777 if you look at the body profile. On the 777s they have your usual (tumbledown or whatever it's called) along with the "toblerone" - introduced as a weapon against people falling down the gap.

This just has flat sides.

99% sure there's been an error here somewhere.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As an aside, 777 is a "silly" TOPS class to give them for another reason - an imagine search for "class 777" returns nothing but thousands of pictures of business class aircraft seats

I guess that's one way to quell the inevitable moans about uncomfortable seats, awkward seating arrangement, etc., etc...

 

[mmh]

Definitely not a 777 if you look at the body profile. On the 777s they have your usual (tumbledown or whatever it's called) along with the "toblerone" - introduced as a weapon against people falling down the gap.

This just has flat sides.

99% sure there's been an error here somewhere.

It could well be a mistake, but as all there have been so far is artists impressions it's difficult to tell. It's some kind of walk-through train with articulated carriages, with a low roof so I'd be surprised if it wasn't either for Britain or some underground system. The Berlin trains don't appear to be articulated, and the current ones don't have flat walls (the Stadler promo PDF about them mentions "the cambered design of the carriage walls" which make them wider than the existing stock)

 

[Mordac]

I guess that's one way to quell the inevitable moans about uncomfortable seats, awkward seating arrangement, etc., etc...

Not if you end up in the BA subforum at FlyerTalk!

 

[James James]

Rail magazine have published an image of what is supposedly the first body shell being built in Hungary.

https://www.facebook.com/171809916245172/posts/1805819729510841/

On top of the body shape being wrong, the Windows and doors completely don't match spec AND the 777 is supposed to have a flat floor. Looks like a continental Flirt. To be fair, the Rail post doesn't actually claim that this is a photo of the 777, just that a 777 is starting to be built.