Southport to Preston via the Burscough North Curve is 20 miles 7 chains, which would need both battery and 25kV to be available on the same unit or a range of at least ~45-50 miles allowing for some degree of battery degradation.
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Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates
- Thread starter OneThirtyEight
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'm not clear why you'd have them operating Southport to Preston. There is only any sense in using them to extend Merseyrail routes to their obviously originally intended terminus (i.e. Wigan, Warrington and Burscough Bridge, *possibly* Preston), not use them on routes which are almost entirely unelectrified. That would be a diesel Northern service in any situation (or potentially in future something with much bigger batteries or hydrogen).
I’m concerned that you can currently get from Kirkby to Wigan, Ormskirk to Preston and Hunts Cross to Warrington on Diesel, but not from Southport to Ormskirk or Preston at all, so this would seem to have the most benefit.
Techniquest
Veteran Member
I seem to recall there's curves of track currently missing at Burscough that would allow such direct trains...
Surely, surely the small number of people wanting to travel to Ormskirk via Burscough would manage the connection at Bridge/Junction? I'm not sure how easy it is these days, but it can't be that bad? I'd probably say it was better to do it via Sandhills, although obviously not for those near Burscough. Preston, yes from Southport there is probably more demand, but I cannot imagine it's much.
All that hassle does not feel worth it for the financial cost of installing batteries on 777s. Leave that area to Northern, and focus said technology on areas that could use it better. Such as extending Ellesmere Port trains to Helsby, and Kirkby trains to Wigan Wallgate.
It’s a 15 minute walk from Burscough Bridge to Burscough Junction. The Southport-Manchester and Ormskirk-Preston services aren’t timed to make the connection so you’d end up waiting over an hour. Southport-Ormskirk via Sandhills takes 1 hour 10 mins. The bus isn’t much faster, but via the Burscough South Curve would take only 20 mins! A 50 minute improvement to journey times!
Forgive me if I misunderstood the concept but I thought the purpose of the battery technology was to allow the reinstatements of routes like Southport to Ormskirk/Preston, Skelmersdale to Ormskirk/Headbolt Lane and Hunts Cross to Gateacre without the prohibitive costs of electrification, as well as extensions over existing routes to Warrington or Helsby etc.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
No, the purpose is short extensions, not whole new routes.
I would describe those as short extensions…
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I would not describe Southport to Preston as that. It is a wholly new route.
adrock1976
Established Member
Regarding your reference of Southport - Preston in a previous post, if it is a short extension, then we may as well go the whole hog into reopening the diagonal route between them, as that is the shortest route.
Unsure how much of the trackbed has been lost though.
A great deal of that route has been built on. Nobody is seriously looking at reinstating that line. The main impetus behind the battery trials is to investigate how feasible it would be to extend current Merseyrail services. The most obvious extensions would be to Wigan Wallgate, Preston, Warrington Central and the Wrexham line. Rapid recharging systems have been developed that could be installed at these outer termini if deemed necessary. At this stage nothing is certain. There is to be a technical experiment to determine if battery power is practical and if so, how far they will power a 777. Then an economic case has to be made to cover the cost of the batteries, taking into account that they will need to be replaced, perhaps every eight years.
To progress towards the goal of eliminating diesel traction this sort of trial is essential. However, although battery power would reduce the cost of building or re-building lines, separate economic justification would need to be made for what would still be very substantial expenditure.
Fair enough I admit Southport to Preston is a wholly new route, albeit one which Stagecoach runs 4 buses an hour on.
Virtually the whole of the trackbed that wasn’t through open fields has been built on. The alignment is used by a road at the Preston end.
It’s this idea of eliminating Diesel traction and introducing batteries and hydrogen that got me so interested. I should add that the Burscough north curve is less than half a mile of single track to reinstate, as is the south curve, although the line between Southport and Burscough could potentially need resignalling to accommodate up to 6 trains per hour.
Of course the range of a 777 on battery power won’t be known when testing a lower capacity battery, so they must be looking at the other performance and energy consumption characteristics, as well as regenerative braking. Could the battery life potentially be extended by limiting the rate of acceleration to more DMU like levels?
Techniquest
Veteran Member
Agreed, and I suspect most of the demand for that route is already covered by buses anyway. Anyone keen to only do it by rail would surely not mind going via Wigan.
Back to the battery trials, which I'm a big fan of and want to see such technology widely used, I can't remember if it got discussed a while back or not but do we know how long they're on for?
Covid has severely impacted the timetable for testing of the new stock with the absence of many Swiss based technicians stretching previously planned timescales. I haven’t seen or heard of a revised plan for the battery testing.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Presumably such testing can be done at a later date once in service, anyway. Battery testing was done with an Electrostar on a South East branch in passenger service - if there's a problem, you just put the pantograph up/shoes down and carry on.
“A few weeks”
Techniquest
Veteran Member
Thanks both. I wonder if a few weeks, taken at a commonly understood definition of 3, is enough. I would imagine so, especially if the weather in those 3 weeks is as changeable as it has been all of May 2021! Plenty of different conditions to test the trains and the technology in, that's for sure, if the cold mornings/evenings, wet rails and strong winds continue much longer.
If diesel power is to be phased out asap, there is a strong case for electrifying the Southport-Wigan line to provide a continuous (OHLE) electrified route to Manchester. Since I understand that the 777s can be equipped for dual voltage (with pantographs) or 3rd rail + battery, but not both, it would be silly to attempt battery power between Ormskirk and Southport. Hence every reason to also electrify Ormskirk- Preston.
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
I'd add wiring-up the CLC between Liverpool South Parkway and Castlefield Junction so they could run to Warrington Central on OLE.
Off topic, but the fact that this section is still unwired astounds me.
It’s most unlikely that, even if the battery trials are a resounding success, that all 777s would be so equipped. The cost of doing so would be considerable and unnecessary, given that the majority of diagrams would still be within the current third rail boundaries. Should there be a need then some sets could be equipped to work off 25kV and third rail. A through service between Liverpool and Preston using battery power north of Ormskirk is a more achievable objective within the next two to three years. If, in years to come, an electrification programme were to encompass the line, then battery fitted units could be converted. It has to be said though that there are many other lines that would be further up the list of priorities.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Indeed, the benefit would be huge (provided you didn't use sluggish 319s) - easily 5-10 minutes off an end to end stopper due to the large number of stops.
I think we all know for a fact they'd use 319s........
Mersey Ed
New Member
I travelled to Hunts Cross on a 507 today and noticed that the half mile or so that was electrified already with wires has now been dismantled ! Only the Allerton depot headshunt is wired past the depot now.
DJH1971
Established Member
Still feel surprised it was not considered when the announcement to electrify lines in the North back in 2009.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think Chat Moss was prioritised because it's a useful WCML diversionary route, the CLC much less so as it doesn't connect to the WCML at Warrington.
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
Absolutely barmy descision in the grand scheme of things. It's the equivalent of having your house completely decorated inside and out apart from one room.
Just reverse at Edge Hill.
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Is the line from Earlestown to Winwick Junction wired? It doesn’t look like it on Google Maps.
Foggycorner
Member
Yes and has been since 1972
childwallblues
Established Member
It was wired as part of the Weaver Junction to Glasgow scheme in 1971.