Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[karlbbb]

Another morning, another mess. Headbolt line down to 1tph, again.


EDIT: They've added in an hourly service running to Kirkby only. Guess this will be a 777/0 or perhaps even a 507/508.

 

[PeterStoba]

No services at all now according to Merseyrail, bus replacement between Aintree and Headbolt.

 

[Mordac]

I feel for the people caught in it, but it might be better if the Headbolt Lane services prove so unmanageable they get the b*lls to get a judicial review on ORR's third rail ban.

Ideally this wouldn't be needed as the Secretary of State should just step in to stop this madness, but if the past year has thought us anything is that the blob is fully in control and the levers of government don't do anything if the bureaucrats don't want them to.

 

[Sam 76]

I feel for the people caught in it, but it might be better if the Headbolt Lane services prove so unmanageable they get the b*lls to get a judicial review on ORR's third rail ban.

Ideally this wouldn't be needed as the Secretary of State should just step in to stop this madness, but if the past year has thought us anything is that the blob is fully in control and the levers of government don't do anything if the bureaucrats don't want them to.

I doubt that will happen. The whole extension programme for Merseyrail will depend on these working

 

[LPJOHN]

Hourly service between Kirkby and Liverpool, 508141 is being used on the line.

Kirkby to Liverpool XX:13
Liverpool to Kirkby XX:35

I believe a bus is also operating between Aintree, Fazakerley, Kirkby and Headbolt Lane.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt that will happen. The whole extension programme for Merseyrail will depend on these working

What is the issue with the battery units specifically? It's hardly like this is new tech - there are plenty of BEMUs in mainland Europe, and there isn't even much loading gauge constraint on these, they're quite big compared to other UK FLIRTs as they've been built specifically to Merseyrail's loading gauge rather than "go anywhere" - 2.82m wide rather than 2.72m for "go anywhere" FLIRTs.

The battery tech is needed for Wrexham and the likes to be economic, to be fair, but to be honest I can see no good reason not to allow third rail to Wigan or Burscough for the shorter proposed extensions (I question the sense in going to Preston) or just to Headbolt. You can mitigate the issues slightly by putting plastic shielding around it as is done in some places.

 

[urbophile]

Due to the anti third rail extremists

More likely due to the 'need' to save money. But why couldn't the opening of Headbolt Lane have been delayed until they were sure the trains were problem free?

 

[M28361M]

Hourly service between Kirkby and Liverpool, 508141 is being used on the line.

Ironic choice of unit given that it has literally days left before withdrawal (assuming the plan posted over the 507/508 thread hasn't changed).

More likely due to the 'need' to save money. But why couldn't the opening of Headbolt Lane have been delayed until they were sure the trains were problem free?

Like other posters, I do wonder if there was political pressure to get services running as soon as possible. There has been months of disruption on the Kirkby line with services regularly being chopped and changed at short notice, so maybe the powers-that-be were looking for some good PR. Obviously it hasn't quite worked out that way.

It would surely have been better to wait until there was at least 3 battery units available to give a spare in case of failure?

 

[Spekejunction]

Class777 introduction …
Mayor of Liverpool Region gone quiet….
Needs warts and all statement from Merseyrail…not public relations fluff..

 

[Prime586]

Also on the 777/0 need 8 car services now as will fix a lot of the sliding step issues

How? I don't think all the door and step issues are to do with overcrowding in the vestibules deforming the floors. With the reliability of the units as they are currently, coupling two together (if/when they can get them to talk to each other) will increase the probability of a failure....

What is the issue with the battery units specifically? It's hardly like this is new tech

You could say the same about all the other systems on the 777s that keep going wrong. I am still firmly of the belief that the quality issues are down to Merseytravel purchasing the units directly from the manufacturer while having no experience in either procurement or acceptance testing for a new fleet introduction, and so putting far too much reliance on Stadler's word.

The Class 745 FLIRTs used by Greater Anglia are owned by Rock Rail, who have a lot more experience in these areas and I expect will have a lot tighter control (i.e. via penalty clauses in contracts) over acceptance and availability rates of what is delivered by the manufacturer.

The Class 231s in Wales have been introduced very slowly - TfW leases them from SMBC, another very experienced ROSCO who I expect will have similar conditions written into the contract with Stadtler (the 756s are still sat in sidings, with no apparent prospect of being put into service any time soon).

 

[L401CJF]

But why couldn't the opening of Headbolt Lane have been delayed until they were sure the trains were problem free?

The same as everything else - so Steve Rotherham can look good for 5 minutes and then disappear into the sunset when it goes pear shaped.

Also pressure to release 777/0s from the Kirkby line to increase rollout on the Wirral I'd imagine given the reduced numbers of 507/8s.

 

[stuart100100]

How? I don't think all the door and step issues are to do with overcrowding in the vestibules deforming the floors. With the reliability of the units as they are currently, coupling two together (if/when they can get them to talk to each other) will increase the probability of a failure....


You could say the same about all the other systems on the 777s that keep going wrong. I am still firmly of the belief that the quality issues are down to Merseytravel purchasing the units directly from the manufacturer while having no experience in either procurement or acceptance testing for a new fleet introduction, and so putting far too much reliance on Stadler's word.

The Class 745 FLIRTs used by Greater Anglia are owned by Rock Rail, who have a lot more experience in these areas and I expect will have a lot tighter control (i.e. via penalty clauses in contracts) over acceptance and availability rates of what is delivered by the manufacturer.

The Class 231s in Wales have been introduced very slowly - TfW leases them from SMBC, another very experienced ROSCO who I expect will have similar conditions written into the contract with Stadtler (the 756s are still sat in sidings, with no apparent prospect of being put into service any time soon).

The times I've been on them when there's been problems with the doors it's been because they've been seriously crowded and the step wouldn't retract, and the guard or driver has come on the PA and asked people to try and move away from the doors

 

[Bletchleyite]

The times I've been on them when there's been problems with the doors it's been because they've been seriously crowded and the step wouldn't retract, and the guard or driver has come on the PA and asked people to try and move away from the doors

I don't entirely understand why this is a problem on these units specifically, again it's not new tech and Stadler units carry full and standing loads all over mainland Europe all the time.

 

[Sam 76]

How? I don't think all the door and step issues are to do with overcrowding in the vestibules deforming the floors. With the reliability of the units as they are currently, coupling two together (if/when they can get them to talk to each other) will increase the probability of a failure....


You could say the same about all the other systems on the 777s that keep going wrong. I am still firmly of the belief that the quality issues are down to Merseytravel purchasing the units directly from the manufacturer while having no experience in either procurement or acceptance testing for a new fleet introduction, and so putting far too much reliance on Stadler's word.

The Class 745 FLIRTs used by Greater Anglia are owned by Rock Rail, who have a lot more experience in these areas and I expect will have a lot tighter control (i.e. via penalty clauses in contracts) over acceptance and availability rates of what is delivered by the manufacturer.

The Class 231s in Wales have been introduced very slowly - TfW leases them from SMBC, another very experienced ROSCO who I expect will have similar conditions written into the contract with Stadtler (the 756s are still sat in sidings, with no apparent prospect of being put into service any time soon).

From my understanding, it’s the weight of too many people stood on top of were the step is sorted stops the mechanism from moving in and out

 

[Prime586]

From my understanding, it’s the weight of too many people stood on top of were the step is sorted stops the mechanism from moving in and out

Most of the issues may be related to floor/bodyshell deformation jamming the steps during crush loading, but I don't think all of them are as they get taken out of service during off peak times too (and sometimes before even leaving the depot).

 

[Steelwheels]

I don't entirely understand why this is a problem on these units specifically, again it's not new tech and Stadler units carry full and standing loads all over mainland Europe all the time.

It is apprently the way that door sensors have been designed and any problems with the step mechinisims stop the door from working as a safety precaution.

 

[baldyman26]

I think you will find its the incompetent leaders of this city calling the shots on the 777s not Merseyrail. Mr untouchable Rotherham is nowhere to be seen. Probably sitting on ebay looking for his next vanity project.

 

[185]

they get the b to get a judicial review on ORR's third rail ban.

Heard of one third rail trial some time ago overseas where the each 200m section of rail is only live when the train is in section. Highly theoretical but that technology could go some way to encourage the ORR to reconsider it's 3rdrailophobia.

I think you will find its the incompetent leaders of this city calling the shots on the 777s not Merseyrail.

Nope. The contract operator's management are as much to blame as the PTE & the authority - their terrible planning decisions taken which destroyed reliability and service patterns on many lines are inexcusable.

Along with a thorough review of the PTE's leadership, the Merseyrail contract operator should also be removed, and those who created the mess from both organisations shown the door.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Heard of one third rail trial some time ago overseas where the each 200m section of rail is only live when the train is in section. Highly theoretical but that technology could go some way to encourage the ORR to reconsider it's 3rdrailophobia.

Bottom contact is probably the safe way to do third rail, but that would require a full closure of the system while it was changed over.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Please refer to post 5738 and that is your answer.

How unhelpfully awkward. A simple "Yes" would have saved you 47 characters and his time.

Wouldn’t surprise me if Southport ends up with 1 or 2 before the end of the year. Just for the photo opportunity of rolling them out on all lines in 2023.

Hopefully, as the knackered 507s can't go on forever, and the 508s will almost be extinct by 2024.

 

[Steelwheels]

How unhelpfully awkward. A simple "Yes" would have saved you 47 characters and his time.

Well funily enough thats what I did (I went back a page on this thread) to help with his request and thats the thanks I get........

 

[Sam 76]

How unhelpfully awkward. A simple "Yes" would have saved you 47 characters and his time.


Hopefully, as the knackered 507s can't go on forever, and the 508s will almost be extinct by 2024.

Kind of at the stage where I'm dreading it to be honest. It will be ok in a few months but whilst they are still loving to sit down, it’s gonna be a commuting nightmare. Nice when they are all rolled out with 8 cars and reliable though

 

[childwallblues]

Class777 introduction …
Mayor of Liverpool Region gone quiet….
Needs warts and all statement from Merseyrail…not public relations fluff..

Our Metro Mayor does'nt do bad news!

 

[irish_rail]

How unhelpfully awkward. A simple "Yes" would have saved you 47 characters and his time.


Hopefully, as the knackered 507s can't go on forever, and the 508s will almost be extinct by 2024.

It's strange how the 507s only became knackered after Stadler took over maintenance of them....prior to that they where extremely reliable. Funny that.....

 

[childwallblues]

Looks like the 30 minute service to Headbolt Lane is restored today.

 

[baldyman26]

It's strange how the 507s only became knackered after Stadler took over maintenance of them....prior to that they where extremely reliable. Funny that.....

And I wonder who brought Stadler in. I certainly don't think that was Merseyrails idea. This whole mess is down to Rotherham, he's there for is photos and votes then disappears when questions need answers. Anyone seen his yellow buses anywhere??
To say this sits with Merseyrail is very reason why this city is in the situation it is, no matter how much money is waisted, this administration know they are safe.. We only have ourselves to blame.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And I wonder who brought Stadler in. I certainly don't think that was Merseyrails idea. This whole mess is down to Rotherham, he's there for is photos and votes then disappears when questions need answers. Anyone seen his yellow buses anywhere??
To say this sits with Merseyrail is very reason why this city is in the situation it is, no matter how much money is waisted, this administration know they are safe.. We only have ourselves to blame.

Stadler's bread and butter is units like these. With Alstom, Siemens or Hitachi you get what you're told - you can basically pick the length, the door layout between 2 and 3 sets, flat or pointy cab, gangway or not, toilet or not and the seats. With Stadler you can have anything you like even if you only want one or two.

It's also worth pointing out that the 701s, which may have been an option, are still not in service...

 

[Djgr]

As an aside, the surname of the Metro Mayor is not spelt the same way as the Yorkshire town

 

[Ribbleman]

And I wonder who brought Stadler in. I certainly don't think that was Merseyrails idea. This whole mess is down to Rotherham, he's there for is photos and votes then disappears when questions need answers. Anyone seen his yellow buses anywhere??
To say this sits with Merseyrail is very reason why this city is in the situation it is, no matter how much money is waisted, this administration know they are safe.. We only have ourselves to blame.

The lack of detail in the explanations given by various spokespeople as to the reasons behind the technical breakdowns is totally unsatisfactory. However, whatever else Steve Rotheram is responsible for, he had nothing to do with Stadler winning the tender to build and maintain the 777s. He became Mayor in 2017, the contract for the 777s had already been signed the previous year.

 

[OL-3944]

Merseytravel borrowed the money from the EU Investment bank to buy the trains, then Brexit happened and Stadler a European train manufacturer with nil history of 3rd rail in the UK was selected. To be fair though Stadler trains are excellent trains, I think the problem with the 777s is that Merseytravel / Merseyrail have ruined the base product with there own specifications.