Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Skie]

It’s complete nonsense. The 777s have had at least 5 train faults causing cancellations today, and I’ve been past 3 with doors locked out. So that’s 8.

Merseyrail run 200k services a year, which is about 550 a day. It takes a lot of cancellations to drag them below 90% so I’m not surprised it hasn’t dipped below yet.

the fact only a small percentage of the population of Merseyside regularly use Merseyrail

Citation needed.

 

[twpsaesneg]

Citation needed.

It's not an unreasonable statement.

ORR stats say Merseyrail had 25,500,000 journeys made for the year 2022-2023, Wiki says the 2021 population of the Merseyside area is 1,423,065.

If you assume a "regular user" to be using the network only 3 days a week (6 journeys x 260 working days), that makes 1560 journeys a year.

Divide the total journeys by this number gives you 16,342 (rounded up) "regular users" even if you asssume no other journeys are made.

This works out as 1.15% of the population of Merseyside. Even if you classed a regular user as only making a return journey every week it only goes up to 18%.

Link to ORR Stats
Link to Wikipedia article on Merseyside

 

[507021]

The way I read the article (which seems a bit vague to me) is it talks about the 777/1s specifically, with it being suggested those have reached 90% reliability. I'm completely unconvinced that's true.

 

[py_megapixel]

What does "90% reliability" actually mean? I thought this stuff was usually measured as "miles between technical incidents" numbers

 

[Killingworth]

What does "90% reliability" actually mean? I thought this stuff was usually measured as "miles between technical incidents" numbers

If my new car was 90% reliable, failing once a fortnight - it would be worse than any of my old BMC/British Leyland rust buckets from 50 years ago!

 

[Bertie the bus]

What does "90% reliability" actually mean? I thought this stuff was usually measured as "miles between technical incidents" numbers

I think he is probably referring to PPM and his statement could well be reasonably accurate, if only for a limited period. If you look at what happens with failures now, they tend to only result in a fairly small number of cancellations whereas earlier on they could result in far more. That probably means

a) they’ve got better at battering them back to life or
b) the units aren’t fully utilised at the moment and they can just swap failures with spare units.

Either way it doesn’t alter the fact units are regularly failing and if they are swapping them, when utilisation increases any failure will cause more of an issue because the same number of spares won't just be sat about. It also depends on where they happen to fail during the period he is talking about. A failure at Rice Lane or Bebington is going to have a much more limited impact than a failure at Sandhills or James Street.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Have people gotten too soft nowadays and fail trains too soon, whereas in BR days the train would have to literally be shaking itself to pieces before any kind of Mayday was declared?

 

[Northerngirl]

The /1s are bad, but 90% is a failure of 1 in 10 journeys, and currently with 3tph thats a little over once every 3 hours. I'm fairly sure they are not that bad, even though there is still alot to improve

 

[185]

3 sets just passed northbound on the down slow at Silverdale WCML, 1637 (24 Jan) topped and tailed by Railadventure power cars.

Guessing that's the rake for Headboard Lame, it won't break down with a HST towing it

 

[Jamesrob637]

3 sets just passed northbound on the down slow at Silverdale WCML, 1637 (24 Jan) topped and tailed by Railadventure power cars.

Guessing that's the rake for Headboard Lame, it won't break down with a HST towing it

This one:

Realtime Trains | 6Q77 1330 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Walton Old Jn.M.S.C.Sdgs | 24/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 6Q77 1330 departure from Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Walton Old Jn.M.S.C.Sdgs on 24/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

They mustn't have been at Wembley long because they weren't there last Friday, unlike the last lot that were at Wembley for weeks.

 

[ExRes]

They mustn't have been at Wembley long because they weren't there last Friday, unlike the last lot that were at Wembley for weeks.

6Q14 arrived from Dollands Moor at 1108 this morning

 

[Bevan Price]

Have people gotten too soft nowadays and fail trains too soon, whereas in BR days the train would have to literally be shaking itself to pieces before any kind of Mayday was declared?

That was before they had things called computers and "over-sensitive" sensors, etc. Now, if computer says "no", you have a problem.

 

[tobach_]

More 777 door malarkey at chester, just had a train cleared out because the driver's cab door wouldn't close properly... had a 507 cancel before this one as well, what was that about reliability?

 

[TheHSRailFan]

You also have politicians in the south. The reason for the mayor's latest statements about how great they are is because today is the first anniversary of them entering service. No politician responsible for public transport is going to say 'Well, that didn't go very well', He is glossing over the problems and setting out a bright new future because he is a politician. It is simple as that, and also the fact only a small percentage of the population of Merseyside regularly use Merseyrail so they won't particularly be aware of all the problems anyway.

I wasn’t referring to you with the nonsense comment don’t worry and my apologies if you thought that . More so the Mayor who seems to go missing when things go wrong

ahh no worries, sorry for the confusion as well

 

[ExRes]

Tonights 6Q78 Walton Old Jct MSC Sdgs to Kirkdale CS cancelled, a 2053 6Q80 is currently showing for tomorrow

 

[Sam 76]

More problems. 777005 has failed at Central doors closed but cannot take power. Whole Northern line is blocked

 

[karlbbb]

More problems. 777005 has failed at Central doors closed but cannot take power. Whole Northern line is blocked

Do we know which service this is? Will be 2S07 or 2K07.

EDIT: Must be 2S07, still at Central and should have left nearly 15 minutes ago, and just had its signals dropped back to red.

 

[Sam 76]

Do we know which service this is? Will be 2S07 or 2K07.

EDIT: Must be 2S07, still at Central and should have left nearly 15 minutes ago, and just had its signals dropped back to red.

This service has now been cancelled. That’s many school children not getting to school on time this morning. Not a good start at all

 

[karlbbb]

4 lines affected by 4 separate failures so far today, and it's not even 10:00.

 

[nigelsporne]

With the delivery of a further three odd numbered units have all the even numbered units arrived?

 

[gka472l]

With the delivery of a further three odd numbered units have all the even numbered units arrived?

No, 777038 has yet to arrive, the last Swiss built set.

HTH

 

[Bikeman78]

Merseyrail run 200k services a year, which is about 550 a day. It takes a lot of cancellations to drag them below 90% so I’m not surprised it hasn’t dipped below yet.

What is being measured to arrive at a figure of 90? I don't think that 90% of the 777 make it through the day without a significant delay or being taken out of service. During my three day trip, there were a few failures, diagrams uncovered and various substitutions by 507s. The 777 still seem to have a lot of the same problems that they had 10 months ago yet Merseyrail are just ploughing on and running more and more of them. The once dependable network has descended into a shambles.

 

[nigelsporne]

No, 777038 has yet to arrive, the last Swiss built set.

HTH

Thank you.

 

[Skie]

What is being measured to arrive at a figure of 90? I don't think that 90% of the 777 make it through the day without a significant delay or being taken out of service. During my three day trip, there were a few failures, diagrams uncovered and various substitutions by 507s. The 777 still seem to have a lot of the same problems that they had 10 months ago yet Merseyrail are just ploughing on and running more and more of them. The once dependable network has descended into a shambles.

From the Merseyrail website on performance:

The percentage of trains that cover their full journey length and arrive at their final destination within five minutes of the booked time measured against the planned timetable.

Passenger Charter

See our Merseyrail passenger charter and performance figures

www.merseyrail.org

 

[Bikeman78]

From the Merseyrail website on performance:

The percentage of trains that cover their full journey length and arrive at their final destination within five minutes of the booked time measured against the planned timetable.

Passenger Charter

See our Merseyrail passenger charter and performance figures

www.merseyrail.org

Thanks for the link. Their own figures show that the Wirral figure is well short of 90%. I suspect the Northern line will follow as more 777s take over. Wasn't the whole network typically around 95% before the 777s arrived?

 

[Bertie the bus]

There is something dodgy about Merseyrail's performance figures:

Performance Information

Find information about the punctuality performance of Merseyrail services.

www.merseyrail.org

In Period 10 95.12% of services arrived within 5 minutes but 4.77% were cancelled and 0.26% were over 15 minutes late. Even if no trains at all were between 5 and 15 minutes late that still adds up to over 100%.

 

[stuu]

There is something dodgy about Merseyrail's performance figures:

Performance Information

Find information about the punctuality performance of Merseyrail services.

www.merseyrail.org

In Period 10 95.12% of services arrived within 5 minutes but 4.77% were cancelled and 0.26% were over 15 minutes late. Even if no trains at all were between 5 and 15 minutes late that still adds up to over 100%.

Cancelled is measured separately, surely?

 

[themiller]

There is something dodgy about Merseyrail's performance figures:

Performance Information

Find information about the punctuality performance of Merseyrail services.

www.merseyrail.org

In Period 10 95.12% of services arrived within 5 minutes but 4.77% were cancelled and 0.26% were over 15 minutes late. Even if no trains at all were between 5 and 15 minutes late that still adds up to over 100%.

Don’t forget the TPE example - if the train’s cancelled the day before, it doesn’t count as a cancellation but a short notice timetable change.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Cancelled is measured separately, surely?

Yes - the delays will be measured against the percentage of services which ran.

 

[sansyy]

Don’t forget the TPE example - if the train’s cancelled the day before, it doesn’t count as a cancellation but a short notice timetable change.

Merseyrail services are very rarely cancelled the day before. They usually cancel due to trains malfunctioning or lines being blocked rather being P-coded. It's the one thing they were really good at was reliability and consistency but not anymore it seems.