Merseyrail Contactless payments

[AndyPJG]

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-67750117

Liverpool City Region plan for £10m tap-and-go public transport system​

About £10m is to be invested to develop a new tap-and-go ticketing system for public transport across the Liverpool City Region.
Contactless payments are to be introduced on Merseyrail trains after local authorities received a government grant to improve public transport.
City leaders said they also planned to extend tap-and-go to the bus network and introduce fare capping.
Metro Mayor Steve Rotheram said the cash injection was "not before time".
Paper tickets and smart cards currently in use across the city region will be replaced under the plans, and a new app to buy and use tickets will be introduced.
Mr Rotheram told the Local Democracy Reporting Service increased demand for public transport had "accelerated" efforts to develop an integrated system in city like in London.
"The reality is that our current ticketing system is no longer equipped to meet the demands of a growing 21st century city region like ours," he said.
"I want to build a similar system in our area that makes ticketing easier, quicker and cheaper and, most importantly, works in favour of passengers, not profit."
A date has not been set for the introduction of the scheme.

 

[John Luxton]

First there was the Walrus Card, currently there is the Metro Card which is also issued as concessionary passes for over 60s and others.

They already have a tap and go system. I don't understand the need for this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They already have a tap and go system.

No they don't. Metro Card allows you to buy Saveaways and seasons, it doesn't have a pay as you go feature. Do think it's a shame they didn't keep the Walrus name though, it was a lovely Beatles related quirk.

About time, anyway. E-tickets too, and they can join the 20th century?

 

[Pacef8]

Hopefully this will see the end of the through ticket (need the paper ticket bit for merseyrail) farce.

 

[Skie]

This again? Seems like every 6 months we hear the same lines from the mayor. I know the original scheme was scuppered when, just after the validators were installed, the government withdrew the funding for a pan North-West smart ticketing solution. If they've finally got some cash now then it may actually happen....In about 4 years

 

[Djgr]

This again? Seems like every 6 months we hear the same lines from the mayor. I know the original scheme was scuppered when, just after the validators were installed, the government withdrew the funding for a pan North-West smart ticketing solution. If they've finally got some cash now then it may actually happen....In about 4 years

To be fair, it must be difficult for him without a functioning Westminster government.

 

[Kite159]

I'm not holding my breath, although the technology must be out there for the PAYG system used in the Bristol area.

 

[Red Rover]

We all know Rotherham wants a metro style system but how can that be implemented on heavy rail?
The network isn’t the Manchester tram or London Underground no matter how much he’d like it to be, what about revenue protection? Through ticketing from inside and outside the boundaries or the issuing of national rail products?
If this were a closed system it may be viable but is this solely for Merseyside products and their own tickets?
It just seems to be a headline grab, if he wants no guards, no ticket offices and just drivers and cleaners then he should come out and say it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We all know Rotherham wants a metro style system but how can that be implemented on heavy rail?

It is a metro-style system. I fail to see what relevance the technology has. It's a textbook S-Bahn, you get them all over Germany.

The network isn’t the Manchester tram or London Underground no matter how much he’d like it to be, what about revenue protection?

What about it?

Through ticketing from inside and outside the boundaries or the issuing of national rail products?

To be honest they do that so poorly that maybe it would be best if it was abolished. But I'm aware of no plan to do so.

If this were a closed system

It's more closed than Manchester trams!

it may be viable but is this solely for Merseyside products and their own tickets?

Yes.

It just seems to be a headline grab, if he wants no guards, no ticket offices and just drivers and cleaners then he should come out and say it.

It's got nothing to do with guards, as Merseyrail guards don't do revenue. Ticket offices on a system like that are an anachronism anyway; people are crying out for the more convenient options of e-tickets and contactless. Where London Underground goes, Merseyrail does and should follow because it's essentially exactly the same thing as the subsurface lines (the Met particularly) on a smaller scale.

 

[Djgr]

On this forum it feels like Merseytravel are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Not quite for me, it’s simply how it would work, no where else is like it.
It’s just easy to say close the ticket offices for this but what then?
What about security? There’s some pretty tough places in Merseyside, fare evasion? Access to national rail tickets.
£10 million is a drop in the ocean for this and won’t touch the sides.


London undergroud is a closed network in effect, merseyrail isn’t, Parkway, Hunt’s Cross with through services and Southport, Headbolt Lane and Ormskirk terminal ends.
Guards were going to pay for the 777’s, they’re here for now but once the concession ends?
All I’m saying is how would it effectively work with other lines coming into play?

Well presumably as in London and the South East where there are (somewhat arbitrary) boundaries on National Rail beyond which you can't use Oyster and/or contactless (as is currently true with Merseytravel tickets such as Saveaways)

None of what is being suggested so far precludes the use of national rail tickets from outside of the area (although the Metro in Newcastle seems to manage without this without the world collapsing) or closure of ticket offices (ditto Metro).

What is true is that Merseyrail travellers are crying out for this.

 

[Red Rover]

Not quite for me, it’s simply how it would work, no where else is like it.
It’s just easy to say close the ticket offices for this but what then?
What about security? There’s some pretty tough places in Merseyside, fare evasion? Access to national rail tickets.
£10 million is a drop in the ocean for this and won’t touch the sides.

It is a metro-style system. I fail to see what relevance the technology has. It's a textbook S-Bahn, you get them all over Germany.



What about it?



To be honest they do that so poorly that maybe it would be best if it was abolished. But I'm aware of no plan to do so.



It's more closed than Manchester trams!



Yes.



It's got nothing to do with guards, as Merseyrail guards don't do revenue. Ticket offices on a system like that are an anachronism anyway; people are crying out for the more convenient options of e-tickets and contactless. Where London Underground goes, Merseyrail does and should follow because it's essentially exactly the same thing as the subsurface lines (the Met particularly) on a smaller scale.

London undergroud is a closed network in effect, merseyrail isn’t, Parkway, Hunt’s Cross with through services and Southport, Headbolt Lane and Ormskirk terminal ends.
Guards were going to pay for the 777’s, they’re here for now but once the concession ends?
All I’m saying is how would it effectively work with other lines coming into play?


How would you protect revenue? Close ticket offices and the incentive decreases massively for many to buy a ticket, you can either raise the penalty fare to a point where it’s so high it’s eye watering you’ll force them to pay or large amounts of revenue protection and or barriers but that’s millions for all merseyrail stations.

 

[chesterred16]

This can't come soon enough. Tap on/tap off is so convenient in London and there's no reason it can't work on Merseyside.

 

[TheSel]

About time, anyway. E-tickets too, and they can join the 20th century?

... er ... about 124 years too late to join the 20th centrury, surely? Even Rotheram - admittedly not always renowned for letting the facts get in the way of his political agenda - got the century right in his quote:

"The reality is that our current ticketing system is no longer equipped to meet the demands of a growing 21st century city region like ours," he said.

Come on - keep up at the back there!

 

[Bletchleyite]

... er ... about 124 years too late to join the 20th centrury, surely?

It was a joke. Merseyrail live so far in the past at times that joining the 20th century would be progress.

 

[Djgr]

It was a joke. Merseyrail live so far in the past at times that joining the 20th century would be progress.

Of course the 21st century has been not been a great one for the UK or the world and so perhaps a little reticence is understandable.

 

[L401CJF]

First there was the Walrus Card, currently there is the Metro Card which is also issued as concessionary passes for over 60s and others.

They already have a tap and go system. I don't understand the need for this.

If the rollout of this system has been anything like the Walrus/Metro farce then don't expect it for another 10 years at least!

I remember when the Walrus cards were originally being trialled with Merseytravel Staff using "Staff Trio" cards (all mode passes). When it was rolled out to the public it was originally Saveaway (All mode day passes) only. Nothing then progressed for another few years when certain Solo passes (Bus only seasons) were rolled out onto the cards - but Term time versions of this remained as the ink stamped photo card versions for a few further years. Around 2016/2017 it was made so that Arriva/Stagecoach bus weekly passes could be put on the cards. A year or so later it was made so that Solos could be loaded on the cards onboard buses - which rolled out for half a day before being withdrawn due to technical issues and then never came back. I did the training at Arriva for this and then never even topped one up before it was pulled!

A few years ago it was made so that "Railpass" seasons could be loaded onto them. The Trio all modes as far as I'm aware - 10 years after the initial card rollout - still arnt on the cards and are the ink stamp photocards.

(Dates are all approximate from what I recall working in the bus industry during the rollout).

As it stands the validatiors at Merseyrail stations are only for loading prebought online Railpass products onto your Metrocard. Buy online with the card number, tap card on reader, product loads onto card. I believe people are encouraged to tap in/out with Railpasses and concessionary cards (presumably to get people into the habit ready) but there is no requirement to do so and I've never seen anybody actually do it.

 

[Red Rover]

It could be done but it would cost an awful lot more than £10 million, if that’s just for saveaways and season tickets internally within Merseyside it would cost so so much more for trios to go on and smart card seasons from outside the region.

And this tap on/off could only happen is Merseyrail came under the auspices (highly probable though) of merseytravel after 2028 when the concession ends otherwise the validator couldn’t tell what routes you’ve been on and couldn’t charge for merseyrail only or the standard route ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And this tap on/off could only happen is Merseyrail came under the auspices (highly probable though) of merseytravel after 2028 when the concession ends otherwise the validator couldn’t tell what routes you’ve been on and couldn’t charge for merseyrail only or the standard route ticket.

Eh? Nobody but enthusiasts do the silly stuff like going Ormskirk to Southport via Burscough. I can't think of any cases at all where there is a non Merseyrail route between two Merseyrail stations people would actually use and that would have you end up at the same gate lines at both ends.

 

[Red Rover]

Hunts Cross and Parkway to Lime St or Area c day saver? How would the validator know?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hunts Cross and Parkway to Lime St or Area c day saver? How would the validator know?

Different gateline at the Lime St end.

Literally nobody would go one stop from Hunts X to South Parkway then change to Merseyrail. If some enthusiast does it it's not worth bothering about.

 

[Djgr]

If the rollout of this system has been anything like the Walrus/Metro farce then don't expect it for another 10 years at least!

I remember when the Walrus cards were originally being trialled with Merseytravel Staff using "Staff Trio" cards (all mode passes). When it was rolled out to the public it was originally Saveaway (All mode day passes) only. Nothing then progressed for another few years when certain Solo passes (Bus only seasons) were rolled out onto the cards - but Term time versions of this remained as the ink stamped photo card versions for a few further years. Around 2016/2017 it was made so that Arriva/Stagecoach bus weekly passes could be put on the cards. A year or so later it was made so that Solos could be loaded on the cards onboard buses - which rolled out for half a day before being withdrawn due to technical issues and then never came back. I did the training at Arriva for this and then never even topped one up before it was pulled!

A few years ago it was made so that "Railpass" seasons could be loaded onto them. The Trio all modes as far as I'm aware - 10 years after the initial card rollout - still arnt on the cards and are the ink stamp photocards.

(Dates are all approximate from what I recall working in the bus industry during the rollout).

As it stands the validatiors at Merseyrail stations are only for loading prebought online Railpass products onto your Metrocard. Buy online with the card number, tap card on reader, product loads onto card. I believe people are encouraged to tap in/out with Railpasses and concessionary cards (presumably to get people into the habit ready) but there is no requirement to do so and I've never seen anybody actually do it.

although the article makes clear that buses will be out of scope until Merseytravel takes back control of them.

Hunts Cross and Parkway to Lime St or Area c day saver? How would the validator know?

There are always going to be funnies. Try also to consider the big picture.

 

[Kite159]

Hunts Cross and Parkway to Lime St or Area c day saver? How would the validator know?

Different gateline at South Parkway

 

[Red Rover]

Different gateline at the Lime St end.

Literally nobody would go one stop from Hunts X to South Parkway then change to Merseyrail. If some enthusiast does it it's not worth bothering about.

People frequently go from hunts cross to lime st via parkway, I do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People frequently go from hunts cross to lime st via parkway, I do.

And they'd pass two gate lines when they did.

 

[Red Rover]

Different gateline at South Parkway

Yes but my point is as how can a validator know that? I go from say hunts cross to lime st via parkway and the cheapest ticket is a saveaway as it stands not a day return or an area c, I’m certainly not against this at all but there isn’t a comparison really I can see, Manchester tram is an enclosed system, we’re not. How would tickets work from out of boundary?

If there’s no merge between the internal Merseyside operators how would the revenue be split, saveaway split I understand now is contentious as it is, add northern to it with services coming from out of the area it would be incredibly confusing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes but my point is as how can a validator know that? I go from say hunts cross to lime st via parkway and the cheapest ticket is a saveaway as it stands not a day return or an area c, I’m certainly not against this at all but there isn’t a comparison really I can see, Manchester tram is an enclosed system, we’re not. How would tickets work from out of boundary?

Same as London. If you didn't tap in and you show up at a TOC gateline you get a Penalty Fare.

There's very little difference between Merseyrail and London Overground.

 

[Red Rover]

If there were no barriers people wouldn’t tap in.

 

[valleyquay]

I'm very much assuming this will come with entirely redesigned fare zones and ticketing all round. Perhaps they'll go the Metrolink route of paper day tickets for those who don't want to partake.

 

[willgreen]

London undergroud is a closed network in effect, merseyrail isn’t, Parkway, Hunt’s Cross with through services and Southport, Headbolt Lane and Ormskirk terminal ends.
Guards were going to pay for the 777’s, they’re here for now but once the concession ends?

I don’t understand this at all, how is Hunt’s Cross any different to say Amersham or Richmond? Plenty of places on the Tube where you change to National Rail or vice versa, how is this specific to Merseyrail?

 

[Red Rover]

Hunts cross is inside a zone (c2) with two routes to Liverpool with 3 different available fares for routes and times, it’s an anomaly true but there’s probably quite a few more if you include northern and the city line, if they were all brought in-house after 2028 under merseytravel then is would be a lot less complicated.