Merseyrail customer issued £20 Penalty Fare due to there being no facility to print the ticket

[nedchester]

Man hit with Merseyrail fine despite paying for ticket

The man was given a £20 fine during his first trip to Liverpool

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

despite buying the ticket via Trainline, costing him £7.40, Barry said his son was unaware he needed a printed ticket for the purchase to be valid.

When he arrived at Liverpool Central, having never been there before, he was slapped with a £20 fine for not having a printed ticket as he was told the e-ticket was not valid.

Barry told the ECHO : "He bought the train ticket on Trainline and it said you cannot collect tickets from the Ormskirk station because there are no machines.

"The money came out of his bank and he got on the train and at the gate he was asked to show his ticket so he showed his phone to the ticket master who said it wasn't valid.

Whilst the receipt is technically not valid, it is pathetic that he was fined £20.

Most young people like to buy tickets on their phones these days but Merseyrail is stuck in the past.

The irony of all this is that he could have bought a Day Saver for £5.55 and not the Anytime fare he purchased through the Trainline.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Very easy to cancel your ticket if you haven't printed it. No technically about it , it isn't valid.

 

[nedchester]

Very easy to cancel your ticket if you haven't printed it. No technically about it , it isn't valid.

Some of us like to see it in terms of a passenger not used to the system rather than in pure black and white legal terms.

 

[Starmill]

Unfortunately the man quoted in the article specifically says that the app told the traveller that they wouldn't be able to pick up the ticket at Ormskirk. For some reason the customer still completed the transaction.

 

[gray1404]

The article also states that trainline refused to refund the ticket on the basis the return leg was used. At the same time the article states that the son does not know where Lime Street is to collect the ticket. Therefore, despite being issued with a penalty fare at the end on the outward journey, it sounds like the son still used the mere booking confirmation email to travel on the return leg despite the penalty fare earlier. That would have meant he was let though the barriers using the email confirmation on the return journey.

Also concerning from the article is when the father states there were other people arriving without tickets at all but they were allowed to purchase, the son wasn't.

This whole situation could easily be avoided if Merseyrail would accept e-tickets on their network. It really is unacceptable that Merseyrail is able to issue e-tickets for travel on their own network in the form of their day saver, but other TOC's can't issue an e-ticket valid for travel on their services. Merseyrail know this is an ongoing and regular issue hence their recent poster campaign advising passengers that they cannot travel using email confirmations. They refuse to do anything to address the real issues. (not accepting e-tickets or allowing ticket on departure collection.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

The PF was clearly issued correctly, but Merseyrail really need to sort this out, it is beyond a joke. Southeastern too.

 

[Birkonian]

Ignoring the local press clickbait slant of the article and the acceptance that the traveller didn't have a valid ticket under the rules it is a subject that has annoyed me for many years.

Merseyrail admit that they have only three stations where prepaid tickets can be collected. I live in Wirral which has over 20 railway stations serving over 300,000 people but no ticket collection machines. Why is that allowed?

We should be allowed to purchase train tickets online from any TOC, not have to pay an additional fee to travel to Liverpool Lime Street or Chester to collect them even if they are valid from a local station. Before people say why not buy at the station, my local staff aren't the best at this (being kind there), no option to choose a seat, and it annoys passengers just wanting a ticket for the train that is due in the next few minutes.

Also from experience, when buying for my wife and I they demand to see both railcards which means we both have to go to the station. We have mobile railcard which network rail promote, but my local station wouldn't accept a screenshot of my wife's card. No problem buying online.

Don't even get me started on the lack of off peak returns which means for instance that a journey from Hamilton Square to Liverpool Lime Street on a different day is £8.00 for 7 minutes each way. Advance returns from Liverpool to Manchester are often cheaper.

Rant over.

 

[geoffk]

I assume the confusion between Saveaway and Day Saver Tickets continues. Last time I was in the area I bought a Saveaway ticket at Wigan Wallgate ticket office without a problem despite having been told they couldn't be bought outside Merseyside. Sorry going off at a tangent.

 

[mmh]

Unfortunately the man quoted in the article specifically says that the app told the traveller that they wouldn't be able to pick up the ticket at Ormskirk. For some reason the customer still completed the transaction.

"The railway" does not have good form on this, with putting posters up at my local stations saying people must buy a ticket before boarding when there are no ticket buying facilities,which is completely untrue, complete of course with a website address to buy tickets.

It's perfectly possible people are intimidated by this sort of messaging into purchasing a ticket they have no idea how to use or collect.

 

[nedchester]

Ignoring the local press clickbait slant of the article and the acceptance that the traveller didn't have a valid ticket under the rules it is a subject that has annoyed me for many years.

Merseyrail admit that they have only three stations where prepaid tickets can be collected. I live in Wirral which has over 20 railway stations serving over 300,000 people but no ticket collection machines. Why is that allowed?

We should be allowed to purchase train tickets online from any TOC, not have to pay an additional fee to travel to Liverpool Lime Street or Chester to collect them even if they are valid from a local station. Before people say why not buy at the station, my local staff aren't the best at this (being kind there), no option to choose a seat, and it annoys passengers just wanting a ticket for the train that is due in the next few minutes.

Also from experience, when buying for my wife and I they demand to see both railcards which means we both have to go to the station. We have mobile railcard which network rail promote, but my local station wouldn't accept a screenshot of my wife's card. No problem buying online.

Don't even get me started on the lack of off peak returns which means for instance that a journey from Hamilton Square to Liverpool Lime Street on a different day is £8.00 for 7 minutes each way. Advance returns from Liverpool to Manchester are often cheaper.

Rant over.

Which is exactly my point. Merseyrail need to move with the times if they wish to be part of the National Network (they boast about being able to buy tickets to anywhere on their stations)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is exactly my point. Merseyrail need to move with the times if they wish to be part of the National Network (they boast about being able to buy tickets to anywhere on their stations)

I doubt you'll find much argument with that in here.

I suspect the reason they don't is that they have the booking offices, and having people book e.g. London tickets at them keeps them vaguely economic ish. Personally, if it was a binary choice, I'd rather they closed most of them (providing platform security staff instead at stations with antisocial behaviour problems) and accepted e-tickets. Though it'd be wise to keep a few e.g. Liverpool city centre stations other than Lime St and the other ends of the lines for season ticket renewals etc.

 

[nedchester]

I doubt you'll find much argument with that in here.

I suspect the reason they don't is that they have the booking offices, and having people book e.g. London tickets at them keeps them vaguely economic ish. Personally, if it was a binary choice, I'd rather they closed most of them (providing platform security staff instead at stations with antisocial behaviour problems) and accepted e-tickets. Though it'd be wise to keep a few e.g. Liverpool city centre stations other than Lime St and the other ends of the lines for season ticket renewals etc.

Agree.

To be honest the booking offices are variable (to say the least). Anything out of the ordinary and many of the staff will look at you as if you've just landed from Mars! I've asked for Rangers or Rovers and they often tell me they can't issue them (they can because some staff have done so) because they can't be bothered. I wouldn't trust them to book the cheapest advance ticket for me!

In any case the modern traveller would prefer to use an app or the internet in the same way they booked their airline tickets.

 

[462cd]

Which is exactly my point. Merseyrail need to move with the times if they wish to be part of the National Network (they boast about being able to buy tickets to anywhere on their stations)

They go further than boasting about buying any tickets: a recent advertising campaign (which might still be running at some stations) claimed they sold the cheapest tickets. I know people who've gone out of their way to buy from a Merseyrail ticket office because they mistakenly think they are getting a discount.

 

[robbeech]

Some of us like to see it in terms of a passenger not used to the system rather than in pure black and white legal terms.

Some of us like to see a customer friendly approach from the railway but these instances are getting pretty rare.

The article also states that trainline refused to refund the ticket on the basis the return leg was used. At the same time the article states that the son does not know where Lime Street is to collect the ticket. Therefore, despite being issued with a penalty fare at the end on the outward journey, it sounds like the son still used the mere booking confirmation email to travel on the return leg despite the penalty fare earlier. That would have meant he was let though the barriers using the email confirmation on the return journey.

Also concerning from the article is when the father states there were other people arriving without tickets at all but they were allowed to purchase, the son wasn't.

This whole situation could easily be avoided if Merseyrail would accept e-tickets on their network. It really is unacceptable that Merseyrail is able to issue e-tickets for travel on their own network in the form of their day saver, but other TOC's can't issue an e-ticket valid for travel on their services. Merseyrail know this is an ongoing and regular issue hence their recent poster campaign advising passengers that they cannot travel using email confirmations. They refuse to do anything to address the real issues. (not accepting e-tickets or allowing ticket on departure collection.)

It’s more profitable to carry on as they are. Provide threatening posters, provide no facilities, suggest people buy online, issue them a penalty for doing as they ‘suggest’

"The railway" does not have good form on this, with putting posters up at my local stations saying people must buy a ticket before boarding when there are no ticket buying facilities,which is completely untrue, complete of course with a website address to buy tickets.

It's perfectly possible people are intimidated by this sort of messaging into purchasing a ticket they have no idea how to use or collect.

The railway is intimidating. More and more each day.

 

[S&CLER]

I doubt you'll find much argument with that in here.

I suspect the reason they don't is that they have the booking offices, and having people book e.g. London tickets at them keeps them vaguely economic ish. Personally, if it was a binary choice, I'd rather they closed most of them (providing platform security staff instead at stations with antisocial behaviour problems) and accepted e-tickets. Though it'd be wise to keep a few e.g. Liverpool city centre stations other than Lime St and the other ends of the lines for season ticket renewals etc.

I wonder if the coming of the level-access class 777s will change the situation. Many booking clerks at one-person Merseyrail stations, especially on the Southport line, are kept reasonably busy bringing the wheelchair ramps out several, even many, times a day. Merseyrail does seem to be used more by the disabled than many other TOCs, presumably because they can be pretty confident that assistance will be available without booking it in advance, which is not the case in many other places. Once the station staff aren't needed for that, Merseyrail may reconsider how necessary they are. More on-train ticket checking would also be necessary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if the coming of the level-access class 777s will change the situation. Many booking clerks at one-person Merseyrail stations, especially on the Southport line, are kept reasonably busy bringing the wheelchair ramps out several, even many, times a day. Merseyrail does seem to be used more by the disabled than many other TOCs, presumably because they can be pretty confident that assistance will be available without booking it in advance, which is not the case in many other places. Once the station staff aren't needed for that, Merseyrail may reconsider how necessary they are. More on-train ticket checking would also be necessary.

I don't think it's necessary for station staff to be doing that - the guard could do it like they do on Northern.

 

[185143]

I don't think it's necessary for station staff to be doing that - the guard could do it like they do on Northern.

It in theory isn't. But, release the doors, station staff put the ramp down, station staff remove the ramp and then the guard goes "ding ding" is much quicker than the guard having to release the doors, get the ramp, deploy it, remove it, secure it, return to a panel and then give "ding ding."

Although on the 777s if the guards don't have dispatch duties, it's a slightly different situation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It in theory isn't. But, release the doors, station staff put the ramp down, station staff remove the ramp and then the guard goes "ding ding" is much quicker than the guard having to release the doors, get the ramp, deploy it, remove it, secure it, return to a panel and then give "ding ding."

Although on the 777s if the guards don't have dispatch duties, it's a slightly different situation.

Not least because there won't be any ramps!

 

[Foxcover]

Not being able to buy on-line tickets for Merseyrail causes other ‘passenger unfriendly’ outcomes too.

For example, if you travel from the unstaffed Neston or Heswall stations to Liverpool (changing to Merseyrail at Bidston), you can’t buy your ticket on-line (as you can only pick it up in Liverpool, for the reason this thread covers), you can’t buy it at the origin station as it’s unstaffed, and you can’t buy it on the train (as the guard never leaves the rear cab in that final leg of the journey).

But you must be in possession of a ticket when you transfer to the penalty fare zone Merseyrail West Kirby - Liverpool train; that’s usually a convenient 4-5 minute (published in the Merseyrail Wirral line timetable) cross-platform connection.

So how do you get the ticket in so short a time? Well, it’s a cross-platform connection, the ticket office is on the platform - fair enough.

But if the Wrexham-Bidston train is a couple of minutes late (which it often is, either due to the tight timetable on the line, or because it has to wait at the junction for any late running Liverpool-West Kirby trains); or if there is a queue at the ticket office (Bidston is a major park & ride, and there is only one ticket window); and your Liverpool connection pulls in before you have had time to buy the ticket, what is Merseyrail’s position? Would they be reasonable and allow Wrexham line passengers in those circumstances to buy their ticket at Liverpool?

The answer is no - Merseyrail’s position (as they’ve stated on Twitter, and I’ve confirmed with a guard and the Bidston ticket office) is that if you choose to board the West Kirby - Liverpool train from the Wrexham-Bidston train without a ticket in those circumstances, and were either challenged by a RPI, or tried to buy your ticket at Liverpool, you would be charged an automatic penalty fare. They see it as an ‘unfortunate consequence’ of the neighbouring TFW ‘pay on train’ and Merseyrail ‘penalty fare’ jurisdictions.

I don’t know how many people get caught by this - certainly I’ve missed connections there to get the ticket - but given the experiences in this thread, you wouldn’t want to rely on a fair approach being taken. It’s certainly not passenger friendly, and shows there’s a lot more to do than just increasing service frequency to Bidston, to make the Borderlands line appeal to passengers.

The sooner Merseyrail move to allowing on-line tickets the better. I have nothing against ticket offices per se, but they need to be an additional sales channel, not (practically speaking) the only one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A worse version of the same issue exists at Ormskirk if paying cash - you can grab a "Promise to Pay", but it has no validity on Merseyrail so you have to miss the connection at Ormskirk to pay if paying cash. (There's a TVM at Burscough Bridge etc if paying card).

 

[gray1404]

In the circumstances you describe merseyrail cannot charge you a penalty fare if you do not have enough time to purchase your tickets at Bidston. A customer is not required to delay themselves by missing a connection if they have not had an opportunity to purchase and there is insufficient time at the interchange station.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In the circumstances you describe merseyrail cannot charge you a penalty fare if you do not have enough time to purchase your tickets at bidston.

What's the betting that they wouldn't try, though? Many would probably then pay the PF rather than challenge same.

 

[gray1404]

Merseyrail would wrongfully and knowingly charged this penalty fare and it would then be down to the customer to either ignore it and defend it in court or have to use their own time launching an appeal against the penalty fare.

 

[Watershed]

But you must be in possession of a ticket when you transfer to the penalty fare zone Merseyrail West Kirby - Liverpool train; that’s usually a convenient 4-5 minute (published in the Merseyrail Wirral line timetable) cross-platform connection.

That's not correct, Regulation 6(3) of the Penalty Fares Regulations provides that you cannot be issued with a Penalty Fare if you have started your journey at a station where, inter alia, there are no ticket issuing facilities and:

the passenger did not have sufficient time between leaving one train and boarding the next to purchase a travel ticket.

NRCoT para. 6.1.1 effectively applies the same test with respect to the potential penalty of having to pay for an undiscounted Anytime single to the next stop.

Byelaw 18(3)(i) goes slightly further and sets out that there is no offence committed if the station where a passenger started their journey doesn't have ticket facilities, regardless of what facilities do or don't exist further along the journey.

Meanwhile, section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 is not interested in facilities - only in whether or not the fare has been paid prior to travel, and whether there is intent to avoid payment of the fare, which our putative passenger would not have.

Of course, Merseyrail may still act in ignorance of the Regulations, Conditions, Byelaws or Act. But they would be very much in the wrong if they do so.

 

[Merseysider]

Shotton - Liverpool tickets are valid either via Bidston then Merseyrail, or via TFW the whole way. The ticket route is Any Permitted 2.0 (the ‘blank’ full stop).

The CrossCountry app will sell you a mobile ticket if you select an itinerary not using Merseyrail, or “Collect at Station” if the itinerary involves Merseyrail.

You could select a mobile ticket and use it on Merseyrail anyway, as of course, a valid mobile ticket doesn’t become invalid just because you find yourself on Merseyrail who don’t like them. I’ll have to give it a go sometime

 

[gray1404]

Shotton - Liverpool tickets are valid either via Bidston then Merseyrail, or via TFW the whole way. The ticket route is Any Permitted 2.0 (the ‘blank’ full stop).

The CrossCountry app will sell you a mobile ticket if you select an itinerary not using Merseyrail, or “Collect at Station” if the itinerary involves Merseyrail.

You could select a mobile ticket and use it on Merseyrail anyway, as of course, a valid mobile ticket doesn’t become invalid just because you find yourself on Merseyrail who don’t like them. I’ll have to give it a go sometime

I wish there was a like button.

On a serious note this would be a very interesting want to test quite a few times especially as the security staff on merseyrail now conduct ticket checks. I am yet to ascertain if they are penalty fare trains or resort to straight to report for prosecution however.

 

[Foxcover]

Thanks for this - I’ll follow this up in my online conversation with Merseyrail where they said I’d be fined at the other end, and report back! Hopefully it will change the view … and who knows, may just filter through to the gate lines and RPIs!

 

[Djgr]

There is an article in the Liverpool Echo today in which Steve Rotheram says he wants to knock together the heads of these TOC clowns.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for this - I’ll follow this up in my online conversation with Merseyrail where they said I’d be fined at the other end, and report back! Hopefully it will change the view … and who knows, may just filter through to the gate lines and RPIs!

To be honest, I don't see there's any point trying to change some customer service bod's view.

If you get a Penalty Fare, deal with it at that stage through an appeal.,

 

[alistairlees]

I'm sure Merseyrail's eTicket woes will be sorted out soon.