Merseyrail hidden tunnel

[John Luxton]

The other end of the Low Level subway came out under the Lyceum building at the side nearest Central Station. Some of it must still exist under the Lyceum, at least part of it.

I was in my teens when used it last but remember you entered the subway under the Lyceum on a slight down grade and then a few yards in the passageway opened out a bit. This area I understand had contained an extra peak booking office which had been disused for some time. You then descended steps and turned left to reach the booking office.

As for the colour light departure indicator I last saw that in the old Collectors Corner shop near Euston Station in the late 70s. It appeared much larger close up and I recall thinking I couldn't carry it nor could I afford it. I wonder who bought it? I am sure Collectors Corner had one of the other large metal and blue glass departure indicators from James Street which showed the sequence to trains.

Finally the Central Low Level access subway had an entrance from Lewis's department store which joined the passageway coming down from High Level.

JOhn
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If you scroll down on this page you can just see the Low Level entrance under the Lyceum building in the view of Central being demolished:

http://bdaugherty.tripod.com/liverpool/history.html

John

 

[Bletchleyite]

It appears to be the white door marked "fire exit" on the below:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0gJzB8oYF3A/TgMMWddKPuI/AAAAAAAABHo/ToqRcX16USI/s1600/Lyceum+whopper.JPG

I wonder what lies within?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-t_c9EKjDs.../s1600/Original+Central+Station+Low+Level.jpg

appears to be an unusual photo of the footbridge and booking office.

 

[John Luxton]

It appears to be the white door marked "fire exit" on the below:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0gJzB8oYF3A/TgMMWddKPuI/AAAAAAAABHo/ToqRcX16USI/s1600/Lyceum+whopper.JPG

I wonder what lies within?

Would be interesting to find out. The whole frontage of the Lyceum Building changed but the rest of the remainder of the basement of the building was more closed in with bushes and clutter, however it did house a period cafe - restaurant "Reece's Lyceum" my mother took me in there a few times in the 1970s still had silver service and waitresses dressed in traditional black and white and much period woodwork. She said it hadn't changed since she was a youngster.

It may be that the doorway became a fire exit for the bank or perhaps it is a fire escape for the station?

Someone must know?

John

 

[daikilo]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-t_c9EKjDs.../s1600/Original+Central+Station+Low+Level.jpg

appears to be an unusual photo of the footbridge and booking office.

Yes, on the left is the booking office (notice the number of windows) and the stairs opposite down to the platforms. The light display is probably the black box hanging from the ceiling. Note that beyond the booking office there are stairs in the subway and the lights at the end may well be the access to the department store with the subway turning right in front of it and up stairs to the main station. Behind the camera the subway curves to the left. Not exactly PRM friendly as I don't recall any lifts and I do recall carrying prams and push-chairs up and down stairs.

 

[John Luxton]

Yes, on the left is the booking office (notice the number of windows) and the stairs opposite down to the platforms. The light display is probably the black box hanging from the ceiling. Note that beyond the booking office there are stairs in the subway and the lights at the end may well be the access to the department store with the subway turning right in front of it and up stairs to the main station. Behind the camera the subway curves to the left. Not exactly PRM friendly as I don't recall any lifts and I do recall carrying prams and push-chairs up and down stairs.

yes the black box was the indicator indicator. There was a lift down to the platform for platform trollies. Access to this was just by the illuminated glass case going to the left. There was a suspended walkway which led to the lift which went down to the platform. However, I am sure it was removed some time before Low Level closed. I recall seeing it as a young child, but I am sure it had gone by
70s. John

 

[QueensCurve]

The OS maps have a little bit more detail. Right under the word station you can see it.

https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/osmaps/53.4044401808,-2.9800339764,17

It even shows Paradise Junction.

 

[D1009]

This:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-t_c9EKjDs.../s1600/Original+Central+Station+Low+Level.jpg

appears to be an unusual photo of the footbridge and booking office.

Wow, that brings back memories, thanks for posting. My first job on the railway was in 1967 as a booking clerk at Birkenhead Central, and from time to time I relieved at other Mersey Railway offices, including Low Level! At least we could see daylight at BC!

 

[Taunton]

Wow, that brings back memories, thanks for posting.

Me too.

Among the memories is this one which I see I wrote about a few years ago here. Anyone else do the first paragraph here?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1901126#post1901126

 

[D1009]

Me too.

Among the memories is this one which I see I wrote about a few years ago here. Anyone else do the first paragraph here?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1901126#post1901126

As a member of staff definitely as I knew some of the drivers and guards, but I'm sure people did in the way you describe. A mate of mine used to like doing the Kennington loop on the Northern Line, by lying on the floor so the staff couldn't see him. I never saw the need!

 

[Dixie]

Looking at that OS map, I am reminded how far out beyond James Street station the loop line started, almost under the river. There must have been some reason for doing this, as it appears quite possible to have started it from just after James Street, keeping the old eastbound platform in use and avoiding much train and platform tunnelling.

This was also mentioned at the talk I went to. Apparently the Mersey Railway was built with a stub tunnel veering off at the place where the loop line now branches to the left. This stub was built speculatively for a branch towards Southport that was never built, a bit like the one which would lead into the Wapping Tunnel just south of Central (Northern Line) station. So when the designers looked to see where the loop line could take off they found the stub and and utilised it. It was originally a brick tunnel and junction. However when brought into use the tunnel and the stub were reinforced with rings. It can be seen in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqQSrrXmrjk at 1:03:55

 

[daikilo]

This was also mentioned at the talk I went to. Apparently the Mersey Railway was built with a stub tunnel veering off at the place where the loop line now branches to the left. This stub was built speculatively for a branch towards Southport that was never built, a bit like the one which would lead into the Wapping Tunnel just south of Central (Northern Line) station. So when the designers looked to see where the loop line could take off they found the stub and and utilised it. It was originally a brick tunnel and junction. However when brought into use the tunnel and the stub were reinforced with rings. It can be seen in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqQSrrXmrjk at 1:03:55

Dixie, you've lost me there. The loop is at a much greater angle than would have been possible from the stub (and reenters on the west side near Paradise Junction) as well as being deeper.

Indeed, if the original intent was to connect to Exchange then a branch at or before James Street would make much more sense, as today.

As for the turnback at the south end of low level, it was built under the CLC line and obviously could always be opened out to a full connection except that traffic density did not allow the allocation of the space.

I don't think this stub was ever intended to be the start of a branch (but possibly an additional platform) but I will be happy to be proved wrong if anyone has concrete evidence.

 

[Skie]

On that route learner there is actually a better view of the threads subject. https://youtu.be/MqQSrrXmrjk?t=4060 Should play from the correct spot.

Also, in the book "Underground Liverpool" it does mention that during the rebuild they had to support that area of the stations roof for 3 tunnels. It's pretty vague and goes into no further detail.

I'd also point out that Ordnance Survey are primarily concerned with above ground maps. All of their underground railway stuff is 'best effort' and wont have a lot of detail. Only way to get that is to pester Network Rail (fat chance) or find it in the councils archives of utilities works around that area that might contain the maps showing it all incidentally.

 

[Dixie]

Just to clarify, the Mersey Railway built a stub tunnel in brick which branched off on the left coming from Birkenhead just before you reach James Street when they built the original railway. It was intended to provide a later opportunity to build a branch towards Southport. It was never used until the loop line was designed when it was used as the junction into the loop. It was reinforced with extra rings as can be seen in the video.

 

[Skie]

Managed to find a more accurate layout of Central in a planning application for one of the shops based in the stations arcade: http://imgur.com/a/7lY1Y

That will be more accurate than the Ordnance Survey map.

Oh, and while I'm trolling around the planning portal I took a look at Mann Island because I thought I could see a tunnel to the right before the start of the loop tunnel to the left on that video. Turns out there is indeed a spur there too. Vaguely remember something about it being for a potential goods line.

http://imgur.com/a/4OvWN

 

[Bletchleyite]

Managed to find a more accurate layout of Central in a planning application for one of the shops based in the stations arcade: http://imgur.com/a/7lY1Y

That will be more accurate than the Ordnance Survey map.

Thanks - that similarly shows just a stub at the location at Central I originally posted about (as seen on the video).

 

[daikilo]

I obviously did not consult wikipedia enough as there is a link to this document in the entry on the mersey railway:
https://archive.org/stream/minutesproceedi28britgoog#page/n369/mode/2up
It describes how the station was "built" and explains the stub which was indeed a full length third line but for steam locos to return from the south end of the station, so no platform. Unfortunately a plan view is not readable but a section shows how the outbound line was directly under platform 1 of the main station.
It appears to refer to a stub on the other side as the line turns toward the platforms but does not further describe it in any way.

 

[QueensCurve]

Me too.

Among the memories is this one which I see I wrote about a few years ago here. Anyone else do the first paragraph here?

No, but I have considered it. Sounds fun.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I obviously did not consult wikipedia enough as there is a link to this document in the entry on the mersey railway:
https://archive.org/stream/minutesproceedi28britgoog#page/n369/mode/2up
It describes how the station was "built" and explains the stub which was indeed a full length third line but for steam locos to return from the south end of the station, so no platform.

It doesn't seem to explain the stub as it's a third track in the present cavern - I guess the line was removed and the platform widened at some point.

 

[daikilo]

It doesn't seem to explain the stub as it's a third track in the present cavern - I guess the line was removed and the platform widened at some point.

Yes, a third track in the platform section, but it does mention how the tunnels were dug and says that the platform lines had a twin-track tunnel and the stub a single track tunnel under the main building. This can't be quite correct as the route-learner video shows that at the end of the outbound platform was definitely a short section of single track tunnel (and it still is).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, a third track in the platform section, but it does mention how the tunnels were dug and says that the platform lines had a twin-track tunnel and the stub a single track tunnel under the main building. This can't be quite correct as the route-learner video shows that at the end of the outbound platform was definitely a short section of single track tunnel (and it still is).

FWIW I have somewhere a copy of the illegible plan, obtained from the Public Records Office (had a quick look but can't find it at present) - that didn't show where the stub went, only that it existed.

The present "Up" tunnel is double track width - that can be seen from the video upthread. The widened platform and lift obstruct about half of it.

Most evidence seems to suggest that perhaps the stub only continues through that rock section, and would have been used for a second island platform if one was ever constructed, being the mirror of the other side. Given the complexity of constructing the bit under the main building, it would make sense to have constructed it "for future expansion".

Shame there aren't any Merseyrail track maintenance people here who might have been in there prior to it being boarded!

 

[Foxcote]

Those who used Central in steam days may remember that when standing on the Mersey platform 1, the wheels of a train standing in the high level platform above were visible through small holes at the top of the wall. The video shows an area that was not visible before the 1977 changes as it was occupied by the Mersey Cabin 'B' - known as the West end. At the other end of the platform was Cabin 'A' -known as the East end. Both cabins normally worked in automatic mode, but had King levers to allow manual working in emergency or for maintenance. (Same for Cabin 'C' James street). The station supervisor would (I think on Fridays) work the East end first for a while, then put back in auto and walk to the West end to work that manually. Station staff at James Street would advise the driver of all trains that, "West end working was in operation." This meant that trains departed from the same platform a which they arrived. The same procedure was used by the S&T for their monthly maintenance on a Sunday.

At the East end, the distance between platform 1 and the wall is much wider; this was for a short siding in the early days when steam locos were used and had to shunt I do not know when this was removed, but think it was many years ago.

There was what was called a 'pilot bore' which ran level with and almost the full length of platform 1. Access was gained through small open gaps in the large wall. In training the job, I walked the length of this bore, my memory is that the height varied from about 5ft to 8ft and that it was dry and unobstructed. It is certainly possible that this could have been bored starting from the West end then bricked up. This bore ran exactly under the track of the high level station. I understood that during the reconstruction, the bare was partly filled with spoil.

The only other item of note was in the reversing siding; on the right hand side was the site of the old Fan house. In places, there were still traces of where various equipment had been in steam days. Strangely on my visit, in the back of the fan house space, I found two large empty containers of frying oil, the type used in restaurants. These were removed and the PWay Inspector informed. I later learnt that they came from a premises in Back Bold Street whose staff had thrown them down a nearby convenient hole, not knowing or caring where they ended up. They were duly visited and informed to dispose of their waste in a suitable manner.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cheers. So this pilot bore seems to describe the tunnel I was referring to?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Foxcote]

Cheers. So this pilot bore seems to describe the tunnel I was referring to?

Hi Neil Williams, Thank you for your comments. There is no doubt in my mind that this is the same tunnel. I recall that it was a totally smooth bore, but not entirely straight and in parts had a different height. It ran the length of the arrival platform, (no 1) with access holes in the wall opposite platform 1 and visible to anyone on the platform. I trained in late 1971. The long serving staff always referred to it as the "pilot bore".

My training included working of all the emergency signal boxes, also emergency driving of the 503 stock, working the train on the (normally used) EP brake only, and the straight air brake only. This was intended as an agreed emergency measure only and to take a train out of the tunnel section to B'head Central.

As you may know, the Mersey Railway had its own method of driving, with markers on the tunnel walls showing when to shut of power, drive in multiple or series, such as up Green Lane bank. This dated back to the time when the MR had their own power station at Shore Road Birkenhead and was intended to save money by using as little power as possible. For instance, when leaving Central, the driver would take power then shut off as the train entered the tunnel, coast, then stop at James St, then a similar procedure to the river bed, where power was applied for the climb into Hamilton Square. Saved power, but gave a longer journey time.

At one time, batteries were kept charged in Shore Road Sub Station, so if a loss of power stranded a train at the river bed, battery power was sufficient to bring a train out to a station. Victorian motto of the Mersey Railway was, "Shall ride in triumph over all mischance." My favourite railway motto.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thank you, fascinating. I seem to recall that on the Platform 1 wall there is still a visible door through to something behind - must be this!

 

[Taunton]

I wonder if such a tunnel (and the main one) were actually bores. It was so shallow beneath platforms 1/2, and the carriage road between them, of the main station above, that I suspect it had been built by cut-and-cover. The note above about being able to see daylight sideways through holes that were presumably let into the side of the Platform 2 structure almost rings an old bell for me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if such a tunnel (and the main one) were actually bores. It was so shallow beneath platforms 1/2, and the carriage road between them, of the main station above, that I suspect it had been built by cut-and-cover. The note above about being able to see daylight sideways through holes that were presumably let into the side of the Platform 2 structure almost rings an old bell for me.

The main station box is cut and cover, or at least the modern version of it, as the top was mostly taken off during redevelopment in the 1970s. There are photos of it with daylight streaming through (can't find one to hand though). You can I think see where it was opened out, as there are concrete beams in place of the old Central undercroft brick arches.

The "pilot bore" I'm less sure, because if it was it'd have been cheaper to build it full-height.

Of possible interest: holes through to "something" (not the pilot bore, that's the other side) on platform 2...

And a doorway to somewhere...also on platform 2... unless they're just arches for workers to stand in as trains pass.

 

[daikilo]

I wonder if such a tunnel (and the main one) were actually bores. It was so shallow beneath platforms 1/2, and the carriage road between them, of the main station above, that I suspect it had been built by cut-and-cover. The note above about being able to see daylight sideways through holes that were presumably let into the side of the Platform 2 structure almost rings an old bell for me.

Taunton, if you click on the link I provided at the top of this page you will find a description of how the station was supposed to have been built. I use the word "supposed" as there appear to be some differences between it and what Foxcote remembers. This may well be due to changes in the intervening period and particularly when the steam trains ceased.

 

[Southsider]

This is beginning to remind me of an epic thread on Urban Glasgow about the Central low level lines. I must warn you to have a couple of hours to spare before you start to read - you won't be able to stop!

http://urbanglasgow.co.uk/Abandoned_Central_Low_Level_in_1967_about3419.html

 

[Taunton]

Photos above obviously taken just after the Link was completed and Northern Line trains were now using the platform - the old 1939 trains only ran on that for a year or two after it was finished before they were replaced by the current stock. I can't recall being in there after the changes, never needed to, but I see the escalator access now runs the opposite way to how the steps used to go down.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Photos above obviously taken just after the Link was completed and Northern Line trains were now using the platform - the old 1939 trains only ran on that for a year or two after it was finished before they were replaced by the current stock. I can't recall being in there after the changes, never needed to, but I see the escalator access now runs the opposite way to how the steps used to go down.

Originally there was no staircase access to the platforms at all - it was a lift (which involved going down a passageway outside the building) or escalators. In the mid to late 1980s one escalator was converted to a fixed staircase, leaving only an up escalator on that side.

They did indeed recently reverse the escalators on the other side.