Merseyrail Penalty Fare - is this valid?

[Foxcover]

Hoping I can get some expert advice here on a Merseyrail penalty fare issued last week - I’ll upload the tickets and redacted penalty fare notice on the next post.

The passenger was a middle-aged German national with good English (but clearly not first language) who was returning to the Wirral to resume a live-in carer role for a 95-year old, a job that she shares (alternates) with another live-in carer. She’s had the role for around six months so has become generally familiar (but not expert) with the geography of the Wirral and northwest England.

On Wednesday 30 April she was using the return portion of an off-peak return e-ticket valid any reasonable route. The outbound itinerary was actually Heswall-Bidston-Liverpool-Manchester Airport and the inbound itinerary was for Manchester Airport-Crewe-Chester-Shotton-Heswall. This isn’t relevant to the specific journey, but demonstrates some of the different ways this journey could be completed.

The original train she planned to take had been cancelled from the Airport, so she decided to travel into central Manchester where she had a wider choice of Liverpool bound trains. She was fortunate in being able to get the slightly delayed TPE Cleethorpes to Liverpool which arrived at Lime St a few minutes late at 2006.

During the journey, she checked her onward connections from Liverpool to Bidston (Merseyrail) and Bidston to Heswall (TfW). She had planned, had the original train not been cancelled, to connect into the 2005 Liverpool to West Kirby, which gets to Bidston at 2022 with a generous connection into the 2046 Bidston to Wrexham which would get to Heswall at 2056, and had arranged with her care-sharer to be picked up there by car.

Because she was running late, due to the cancellation at Manchester Airport and also the late running TPE, she realised she would not be able to make this connection and had the foresight to check what that would mean. She discovered that there was more than a 2 hour gap in the Bidston-Wrexham timetable in the evening, and that the next Bidston-Wrexham train would be 2257, arriving Heswall at 2307, meaning a lengthy wait at either Lime St or Bidston, neither of which were appealing.

She then called her shared-carer who suggested that she travelled to Spital instead as this was only a 10 minute drive from Heswall (it’s about 4 miles by car if you’re not familiar with the Wirral). This seemed sensible and they changed their pick-up plans to do this, as they needed to go through handover notes that evening and in their minds this was a flexible ‘any reasonable route’ ticket which (in the circumstances) to them felt very reasonable!

She therefore proceeded to the Lime St Underground platform - no problem with the e-ticket - and caught the next Chester/Ellesmere Port service intending to alight at Spital and complete the journey by car to Heswall.

Around Bebington, she encountered two Carlyle Revenue Protection officers who were working the (fairly quiet) Merseyrail train. The first RPI questioned why she was on the Chester train and she explained the reasons as per the story above. The RPI didn’t seem understand and called the second RPI over.

The second RPI took one look at the return ticket - the one showing a routing via Crewe, Chester and Shotton, and was adamant that her ticket was not valid on Merseyrail services, using the ‘we are a different company’ approach we’ve seen used here before, and also said that as her destination station was Heswall, her ticket could not be not valid.

By this point they had left Port Sunlight and the carer pointed out she needed to leave the train at the next station, Spital. The RPIs escorted her off the train onto the Spital station platform - by now it was around 2045, quite dark, and the platform was deserted except for the lone German woman and the two RPIs - who, whilst they were at no point discourteous, were nevertheless in quite a position of power - physically and apparently legally - and the carer was beginning to feel quite nervous and uncomfortable.

They proceeded to issue her a penalty fare of £104.85.

The person being cared for is a relative of mine, and they contacted me to see if I could help.

My questions therefore:

1. Was her voluntary rerouting via Spital rather than Heswall a valid response to the railway-caused delays, given the open ticket?
2. If not, given she had an open ticket, just not a valid ticket, should they have just excessed her rather than given her a penalty fare?
3. If the penalty fare is valid, would she have any grounds for asking for clemency given the situation above (I appreciate Merseyrail are not known for this!)
4. On the penalty notice, it states that the penalty is halved if paid within 21 days. I’d always understood that ‘clock’ would be frozen on appeal but the penalty fare notice states that ‘no account will be taken of any time on appeal’ when counting the 21 days. Does she therefore need to make sure she pays the penalty before the 21 days expires, to avoid the risk of having to pay the full penalty if unsuccessful at appeal?
5. On the penalty notice the destination station is variously spelled as ‘Heswall’ and ‘Heswell’ and they have not captured her name correctly. Is this grounds for invalidating the penalty fare? I suspect not … but read on…
6. The reason for the penalty given is ‘no ticket’ when she had showed them her e-ticket - I think this may be a serious error (ie one which would invalidate the penalty fare)
7. The additional ‘grounds info’ states ‘Female had ticket to Heswell via transport for Wales but was going to Spital’ which is not correct - ticket was valid, end to end, on any train operating company, as the itineraries show. Is this a serious error
8. The journey stated was incorrect - it states the journey was from Liverpool Lime St to Port Sunlight, when it was from Manchester Airport to Heswall end to end, and the journey being penalty-fared would have been Liverpool Lime St to Spital. Is this a serious error?

Thanks in advance for any guidance as to whether Merseyrail have acted legally and what would be the best course of action re the above.

Many thanks - tickets and penalty fare notice (redacted) being uploaded in the next post.

 

[AlterEgo]

That’s quite an involved post! Could you post a copy of the notice with her details redacted so we can examine it? There may be multiple angles of appeal here.

 

[Foxcover]

Files attached: redacted penalty fare notice, outbound and inbound portions of the tickets. Just mildly curious too as to how the flow was enabled with e-ticket delivery given clearly has Merseyrail components.



Penalty fare:



Wanted to include all the detail given this is Merseyrail - but in summary:
1. Offpeak open return Heswall to Manchester Airport
2. Railway delay meant would miss return connection Bidston to Heswall, with 2 hours to next connection
3. Traveller chose to travel to Liverpool to Spital instead of Liverpool to Bidston, and get a car Spital to Heswall to complete journey.
4. Merseyrail issued penalty fare stating had no ticket.

 

[Haywain]

Was her voluntary rerouting via Spital rather than Heswall a valid response to the railway-caused delays, given the open ticket?

I would say it was not. She should have asked TPE to reroute her and if they refused bought a ticket to Spital and reclaimed it from TPE.

If not, given she had an open ticket, just not a valid ticket, should they have just excessed her rather than given her a penalty fare?

There is no option to excess a ticket to a different destination on a different route.

The reason for the penalty given is ‘no ticket’ when she had showed them her e-ticket - I think this may be a serious error (ie one which would invalidate the penalty fare)

She had no ticket for that part of the journey being made.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Does seem on the face of it, that the person who was penalty-fared, had no valid ticket for the section between (Birkenhead) Hamilton Square and Spital. Do any of the circumstances that the OP mentions allow a successful appeal to be made? In particular, has the PF fare due been correctly calculated?


(Schematic map of Wirral rail network).

 

[30907]

Does seem on the face of it, that the person who was penalty-fared, had no valid ticket for the section between (Birkenhead) Hamilton Square and Spital. Do any of the circumstances that the OP mentions allow a successful appeal to be made? In particular, has the PF fare due been correctly calculated?

View attachment 179404
(Schematic map of Wirral rail network).

The correct fare from Hamilton Sq is £4.20 (£4.35 to Spital).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The correct fare from Hamilton Sq is £4.20 (£4.35 to Spital).

Has the Merseyrail revenue protection officer miscalculated the unpaid fare as being from Liverpool? Grounds for a valid appeal?

 

[gray1404]

They have charged the fare based and journey based on where the passenger boarded the train, rather then from the last station at which the ticket held by the passenger was valid.

 

[MrJeeves]

Files attached: redacted penalty fare notice, outbound and inbound portions of the tickets. Just mildly curious too as to how the flow was enabled with e-ticket delivery given clearly has Merseyrail components.

For context, nothing prevents a ticket valid on Merseyrail from being issued as an E-Ticket. These should be accepted where issued.

The rather infamous "digital tickets are not accepted" messaging Merseyrail produce refers to travelling solely with a ticket collection code or booking reference without first collecting the tickets at a ticket machine or ticket office.

Traditionally, however, TOCs have set up the system that defines whether tickets can be issues as E-Tickets to only allow tickets for collection where fares are obviously going to be used on Merseyrail.

 

[185]

As usual with Carlisle, sensible discretion not applied. Off route journey was from Hamilton Sq to Spital. Correct wording would be Overtravelling / travel beyond the validity.

An unusual Merseyrail-valid e-ticket, but the penalty fare wrongly states 'No Ticket' 'Liverpool-Spital' which is false. I'd appeal and offer to pay £4.35. As the railway's disruption was involved and is the principle reason for the passenger changing the destination to one of almost equal fare - if the first appeal is rejected, I'd complain to CS too.

 

[Foxcover]

Many thanks all for the advice. I’ll hold off helping her with the appeal for a couple of days in case any others spot anything else amiss.

If she loses all the appeals, will she have forfeited the right to halve the penalty fare - just need to make sure I understand the jeopardy in appealing. The penalty notice states she loses the right to the lower amount after 21 days regardless of appeal but that seems to go against natural justice.

 

[Haywain]

Many thanks all for the advice. I’ll hold off helping her with the appeal for a couple of days in case any others spot anything else amiss.

If she loses all the appeals, will she have forfeited the right to halve the penalty fare - just need to make sure I understand the jeopardy in appealing. The penalty notice states she loses the right to the lower amount after 21 days regardless of appeal but that seems to go against natural justice.

It’s not as clear as it could be, but it means that clock stops during the appeal process.

 

[Foxcover]

One additional question for the appeal - the penalty fare appeal website says the variable penalty fare element should be from the point the train is boarded (Lime St) not from the point the ticket became invalid (Hamilton Sq).

Does that mean they have calculated the penalty fare correctly, based on where the journey started (Lime St), rather than where validity ended (Hamilton Square)? Posts above imply grounds for appeal based on wrong penalty fare so want to double check this bit.

Many thanks again.

 

[gray1404]

The clock stops when someone appeals. So as long as they don't go over 21 days they can still pay the reduced amount. Loosing all 3 appeals doesn't mean they necessarily have to pay the full amount.

 

[furlong]

One additional question for the appeal - the penalty fare appeal website says the variable penalty fare element should be from the point the train is boarded (Lime St) not from the point the ticket became invalid (Hamilton Sq).

I'm not following the details of this thread, but your statement is correct. The fare charged is from wherever it was boarded to the next station at which the train stopped, irrespective of any ticket held. If the passenger specifically asks and the inspector agrees, it could be issued to a later station at which the train stops rather than the next station, but not otherwise. (However as the fares to Spital and Port Sunlight are the same price this gets very technical.)

 

[Foxcover]

Hi all - just an update and a plea for info - Penalty Services have rejected our first appeal. In the response the assessor says:

‘Similarly, because there is no onus on the train company to prove there was any intention to avoid payment of the correct fare before issuing a penalty fare, the discretion guidelines are not based on intent.’

I can’t find the discretion guidelines anywhere. Does anyone have a link? My contention is - given the railway was the major cause of her being in the position she found herself in - that Merseyrail failed to exercise the discretion they had - and no reasonable person would think she had acted unreasonably in the circumstances.

I’ll be taking it to second appeal but want to make sure I understood the discretion guidelines.

Thanks in advance.

 

[AlterEgo]

Can you share the text of the appeal you sent them? Making a toppling blancmange of appeal reasons, especially when asking for discretion or grey areas, just confuses overworked and underfocused appeal assessors.

An appeal based solely on the fare being incorrect and not complaint with the Penalty Fares Regulations would be sufficient. It would be three sentences, at most. Abundantly simple appeal.

 

[Foxcover]

Thanks, I think we may have broken the three sentences rule by focusing on the discretion.

Given her ticket was from Manchester Airport to Heswall (via Shotton or Bidston) but not from Hamilton Sq to Spital, we‘d thought there wasn’t much we could do on the penalty fare technically, as she didn’t have a valid ticket when challenged between Hamilton Sq and Spital, and was therefore charged the penalty fare plus the Lime St-Spital ‘full journey fare’.

Our appeal:

‘ I think the Penalty Fare notice was unfair and discretion should have been used given the circumstances and wish to appeal on this basis. I had a ticket from Manchester Airport to Heswall, and only found myself on (what I now know to be) an invalid train for the last short section of my journey because of delays and cancellations the railway had caused. I genuinely thought my actions were reasonable in the circumstances holding a ticket for ‘any reasonable route’.

On Weds 30 April I was on the return portion of an off-peak return e-ticket valid any reasonable route from Manchester Airport to Heswall.

The original train I planned to take had been cancelled from the Airport, so I decided to travel into central Manchester for a wider choice of Liverpool bound trains to minimise my delay, getting the delayed TPE Cleethorpes to Liverpool which arrived at Lime St late at 2006.

I checked onward connections from Lime St to Bidston, and Bidston to Heswall. I had planned, had the original train not been cancelled, to then catch the 2005 Liverpool-West Kirby, connecting to the 2046 Bidston-Wrexham, arr Heswall 2056. Because of the cancellation and late running, I would miss the connection and the next Bidston-Wrexham train would be 2257, more than 2 hours later, arr Heswall 2304.

I am a carer (for a 95 year old in Heswall) and alternate care with another carer. It was important for me to be back in time, as we were handing over caring responsibilities. As it is easy to drive from Heswall to Spital, we agreed I would travel to Spital and be picked up there rather than Heswall. I genuinely believed this was a reasonable use of an open ticket where the railway had caused the delay. I explained all this to the two RPIs who refused to accept my explanation and issued this penalty fare.

Please can you accept my appeal - I had no intention to avoid my fare and will happily pay the specific fare (Hamilton Sq-Spital). I do feel Merseyrail acted unfairly given they knew all this.’

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks, I think we may have broken the three sentences rule by focusing on the discretion.

Given her ticket was from Manchester Airport to Heswall (via Shotton or Bidston) but not from Hamilton Sq to Spital, we‘d thought there wasn’t much we could do on the penalty fare technically, as she didn’t have a valid ticket when challenged between Hamilton Sq and Spital, and was therefore charged the penalty fare plus the Lime St-Spital ‘full journey fare’.

Our appeal:

‘ I think the Penalty Fare notice was unfair and discretion should have been used given the circumstances and wish to appeal on this basis. I had a ticket from Manchester Airport to Heswall, and only found myself on (what I now know to be) an invalid train for the last short section of my journey because of delays and cancellations the railway had caused. I genuinely thought my actions were reasonable in the circumstances holding a ticket for ‘any reasonable route’.

On Weds 30 April I was on the return portion of an off-peak return e-ticket valid any reasonable route from Manchester Airport to Heswall.

The original train I planned to take had been cancelled from the Airport, so I decided to travel into central Manchester for a wider choice of Liverpool bound trains to minimise my delay, getting the delayed TPE Cleethorpes to Liverpool which arrived at Lime St late at 2006.

I checked onward connections from Lime St to Bidston, and Bidston to Heswall. I had planned, had the original train not been cancelled, to then catch the 2005 Liverpool-West Kirby, connecting to the 2046 Bidston-Wrexham, arr Heswall 2056. Because of the cancellation and late running, I would miss the connection and the next Bidston-Wrexham train would be 2257, more than 2 hours later, arr Heswall 2304.

I am a carer (for a 95 year old in Heswall) and alternate care with another carer. It was important for me to be back in time, as we were handing over caring responsibilities. As it is easy to drive from Heswall to Spital, we agreed I would travel to Spital and be picked up there rather than Heswall. I genuinely believed this was a reasonable use of an open ticket where the railway had caused the delay. I explained all this to the two RPIs who refused to accept my explanation and issued this penalty fare.

Please can you accept my appeal - I had no intention to avoid my fare and will happily pay the specific fare (Hamilton Sq-Spital). I do feel Merseyrail acted unfairly given they knew all this.’

I’m not a PF expert but I fear the problem here is that this appeal is all about being treated fairly and reasonably. But that isn’t ground to appeal.

My husband hunch is to go with @AlterEgo suggested grounds. Perhaps they can advise on how that’s best composed.

 

[AlterEgo]

Discretion based appeals “this is unfair” are rarely granted. In any case the ticket is not routed “any reasonable route”, no such thing exists outside of the Contactless area in London - tickets are either routed geographically or routed Any Permitted, which means that you can take any Permitted Route as the Routeing Guide says. She was not on a Permitted Route as we’ve established, and a reasonableness test doesn’t apply; she had no valid ticket, there’s no argument about this.

The notice was not compliant with the Penalty Fares Regulations because the wrong fare was charged and cannot stand. I’m on mobile so can’t get the references at the moment but you simply need to point out the notice does not comply with the Regulations (quote the exact one, people will help here); should be about three sentences.

Post a draft here and people will tweak it.

 

[Foxcover]

Thanks very much - but how was the fare incorrect?

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks very much - but how was the fare incorrect?

Apologies, I’ve got confused there - the fare is correct but the grounds info is wrong. She can’t have “no ticket” and then the notice elaborate on the ticket shown. The ticket she held also wasn’t “via Transport for Wales”.

I’d leave all the discretionary stuff to one side, it’s quite simple, she didn’t have a valid ticket and didn’t try to regularise her travel by buying the correct one or checking the validity of her existing ticket. It’s very harsh to PF someone in those circumstances, I think, but I also don’t think there’s much mileage in an appeal on those ground based on what we’ve seen historically.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Thanks very much - but how was the fare incorrect?

They charged her from Liverpool (£4.85) when they should have charged her from Hamilton Square (£4.55).

If I remember correctly the PF should be from where she went off-route, not from where she boarded.

My memory isn’t what it was.

 

[AlterEgo]

They charged her from Liverpool (£4.85) when they should have charged her from Hamilton Square (£4.55).

If I remember correctly the PF should be from where she went off-route, not from where she boarded.

That's not correct, it is from whence the train was boarded.

The passenger also isn't off-route (being on an otherwise permitted route not permitted by the geographically restricted ticket held), they are going somewhere else entirely with no valid ticket.

(2) In paragraph (1), “the full single fare applicable” is the full single fare for the journey in question from the boarding station to—

(a)the next station at which the train is due to make a scheduled call; or

(b)the station at which the person leaves the train if, at the time the penalty fare is charged—

(i)the person is leaving the train; or

(ii)the train is stationary at a station and there is sufficient opportunity for the person charged to leave the train at that station.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That's not correct, it is from whence the train was boarded.

Thanks, edited: my memory isn’t what it was!

 

[Foxcover]

Apologies, I’ve got confused there - the fare is correct but the grounds info is wrong. She can’t have “no ticket” and then the notice elaborate on the ticket shown. The ticket she held also wasn’t “via Transport for Wales”.

I’d leave all the discretionary stuff to one side, it’s quite simple, she didn’t have a valid ticket and didn’t try to regularise her travel by buying the correct one or checking the validity of her existing ticket. It’s very harsh to PF someone in those circumstances, I think, but I also don’t think there’s much mileage in an appeal on those ground based on what we’ve seen historically.

Thanks everyone for your advice so far - I’ve had a quick read through the regulations now and have drafted this - I’d be grateful for any feedback.

**
I am appealing this penalty fare (second appeal) as the requirements set out in section 5 (2) of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations have not been met.

Specifically, the following details provided by the authorised official were incorrect or non-compliant:

1. Issued at ‘Port Sunlight’ - this is incorrect as the ticket was issued at Spital station platform
2. Issued on ‘Train’ - this is incorrect as ticket was issued on Spital station platform
3. Issue Reason ‘No Ticket - Female had a ticket to heswell via transport for Wales but was going to Spital’ - this is incorrect, inconsistent and confusing - the journey to Heswall (which is mis-spelt - it isn’t ‘heswell’) uses several operators, including Merseyrail, for the open ticket held - it was not a ticket valid only on Transport for Wales, which the inspector (by stating this) appears to have believed.
4. Journey From: Liverpool Lime St to Port Sunlight - this is incorrect, the journey was from Liverpool Lime Street to Spital where the penalty fare was issued, and so the penalty fare was incorrectly calculated.

As almost all the information provided to justify the Penalty Fare was incorrect or inconsistent, I contend that the requirement to explain why a Penalty Fare was being issued cannot have been met, and that, further, the Penalty Fare was incorrectly calculated.

I request therefore that my appeal against this penalty fare be upheld.

**