Merseyrail security guards broke train passenger's leg twice - Liverpool Echo article 30/04/2021

[Stigy]

It does seem that the SIA scheme is not effective enough, and there really does need to be a clampdown on this kind of thing. The industry needs professionalising - it's professional enough in mainland Europe, so that's clearly not hard.

Clearly it needs big strong blokes (or women), but it needs military style professionalism, not thugs who do it because they'd never get any other job as is far too common.

The job certainly doesn’t need “big strong blokes or women”. I did 12 years in this sort of work and although a bit heavier than I’d like, I’m not a big strong bloke as such. In fact, a lot of the people I worked with were the same. It’s about how you talk to people and how you present yourself that matters. Coupled with having the ability to use physical techniques when necessary to restrain or remove people from trains and stations.

You also don’t need military professionalism. I’ve seen people from all different backgrounds in this line of work, and I’ll be honest, some of the best are people with no experience at all, who are able to be trained to a high standard, internally, taking in to account the company policies etc.

This is more a problem of private security in general, and the SIA not being fit for purpose. Which it hasn’t been since it’s introduction in 2005 (ish).

There is clearly a training issue here... if they had the man up against the wall, how did he then turn around to face them? He should have been restrained in that position and then the two security frogmarch him out or detain him in that position until police arrive. In an ideal world anyway. We weren't there but the fact that it's got this far shows that they used an inappropriate amount of force... a bit of red mist possibly descended once the incident started.

I would imagine that after hitting his head, they released him momentarily realising what they’d done? That’s speculation though I guess.

The best was to avoid heavy handed thugs from private security firms (which, to be fair certainly isn’t the norm as such), would be for TOCs to employ their own staff, in the way SWR/GTR/SET do. They’re accredited and vetted to police standards, so at the very least you have someone who’s suitable in terms of their criminal history getting the role. As it stands, the SIA only use DBS to vet staff. Same as most other industries. Police vetting is far more stringent.

This will also mean that staff, because they’re employed by the TOC have all the perks other railway staff get, including a decent pension. They’re just better trained and better looked after, and that makes for professional staff. Most of the time.

 

[O L Leigh]

Even though it says in the story that they were far too heavy handed

Heavy handed, yes. But that’s not the same thing as “losing their rag and giving someone a kicking”.

 

[Stigy]

Heavy handed, yes. But that’s not the same thing as “losing their rag and giving someone a kicking”.

You can get away with breaking a bone here and there as long as it’s proportionate. I don’t think this was.

 

[BluePenguin]

Last year I was returning home from work on Tfwrail train at Chester when 2 security personnel dressed like police looking like nightclub bouncers asked to see my ticket

I asked who they were and who they were and didn't get a proper reply - never seen them before. I said I would show ticket to railway personnel when requested.

A third security man on the platform signalled to pull me off the train

They were about to try to extract me against my will when the train had to go ～ I feared physical manhandling ～ this is a common law assault.

I reported this to Tfwrail who said this shouldn't happen and these security never check tickets now

A week later I asked one of the security involved if they were really about to pull me off the train and he said yes.

The security don't dress similar to police now either.

I really object to having bouncers on trains because bad things will happen and the train feels like an uncomfortable environment.

I am sorry but I don’t understand why they were about to throw you off. Was it because you refused to show them your ticket? I doubt that is allowed. Revenue is not their responsibility. Personally I would have shown my ticket to save an argument.

Also, how come they let you stay on?

 

[O L Leigh]

You can get away with breaking a bone here and there as long as it’s proportionate. I don’t think this was.

Hang on. Can I just be completely clear.

I am not defending the security staff nor suggesting that the injuries incurred were in any way acceptable. My point was simply to point out that, unless he knew for certain what happened, @Bletchleyite’s suggestion that these injuries came about because the security staff lost their rag and administered a kicking was speculative. I had thought that I had spelled this out sufficiently clearly in my first post.

 

[185]

A reminder that Carlisle are also currently conducting onboard ticket checks on Merseyrail, two wandered into a carriage the other day, no ID or identifying marks on their uniforms asking for tickets - their ID was, in fairness quickly produced on request. They took someone off at the next stop for a penalty fare... but I do wonder whether the PTE & Union are happy with these agency staff continuing with onboard checks in light of this and other palladium-esque incidents.

 

[riceuten]

Weren't CSS the same staff who South Eastern employed to undertake Revenue control, on a percentage basis, and were caught making up spurious reasons why people's tickets weren't valid and issuing fines, earning themselves a handsome commission ?

 

[Stigy]

Hang on. Can I just be completely clear.

I am not defending the security staff nor suggesting that the injuries incurred were in any way acceptable. My point was simply to point out that, unless he knew for certain what happened, @Bletchleyite’s suggestion that these injuries came about because the security staff lost their rag and administered a kicking was speculative. I had thought that I had spelled this out sufficiently clearly in my first post.

I understand what you meant, I was just adding to the conversation.

 

[C J Snarzell]

The Security Industry Authority (SIA) is similar in principle to the Independent Office of Police Conduct (IOPC) which regulate and investigate the police.

The IOPC is having millions funded in to it with an ever growing tide of police misconduct and bad press.

The SIA however is treated like the forgotten cousin where government aid is concerned, and as an organisation I believe they only employ around 200 staff nationally.

As an ex-cop myself, I actually made a couple of referrals to the SIA during my service over concerns I had with certain nightclub door staff but it was like 'thanks for the correspondence' - but nothing was followed up.

I do think the security industry does need something of a shake up - maybe replace the SIA with an organisation that is fit for purpose, to at least prevent these types of incidents.

CJ

 

[kevconnor]

The Security Industry Authority (SIA) is similar in principle to the Independent Office of Police Conduct (IOPC) which regulate and investigate the police.

The IOPC is having millions funded in to it with an ever growing tide of police misconduct and bad press.

The SIA however is treated like the forgotten cousin where government aid is concerned, and as an organisation I believe they only employ around 200 staff nationally.

As an ex-cop myself, I actually made a couple of referrals to the SIA during my service over concerns I had with certain nightclub door staff but it was like 'thanks for the correspondence' - but nothing was followed up.

I do think the security industry does need something of a shake up - maybe replace the SIA with an organisation that is fit for purpose, to at least prevent these types of incidents.

CJ

If the situations are similar to experience of working in Health and Social Care it seems to be a theme with many English based regulatory authorities. Whereas the Welsh and Scottish are much more proactive and interested in user and stakeholder feedback about the goings on of those who it registers and regulates.

Regulatory authorities only seem to get involved where there are serious cases of misconduct or criminal activity, I've had experience of regulators following up for further info but I've never had a situation where they have disclosed how they have followed up.

The common misconception I find is that being registered with a regulatory authority like SIAC is a good substitute for good recruitment practice whereas it should form part of it but shouldn't be the sole or dominant factor.

 

[nanstallon]

In my experience private security guards in the Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, Switzerland etc are just as professional as railway employees are. There has long been a problem with security guarding as an industry in the UK. At least SIA has removed most of the organised crime from it, but it is still nowhere near good enough.

This is just so British - farming security out to private organisations, which are usually cowboys making money by employing thugs.

 

[domcoop7]

This should not be necessary: the sentencing court can normally impose ancillary orders which mean that the victim is compensated and the malfeasor himself has to pay.

Civil damages for injuries and assaults is a too complicated in most cases for the criminal courts to handle. Whilst there has been guidance to the criminal courts saying they should make Compensation orders in line with what a civil court may order, in reality it's above the pay grade for a judge or magistrate to make that decision (and they won't have the relevant evidence before them) and so they tend to just offer a token £250 or so. Add to that, most people before the criminal courts are criminals, who are not known in general for being people with a lot of money. (Drug dealers and the like aside).

So an injured person would almost certainly want to sue them in the County Court system, where the judge and practitioners will have experience of the Judicial College guidelines on damages for personal injuries, loss of earnings, care and services claims and all sorts of things a criminal court will never have heard of. Plus the injured person usually (but not always) can sue the employer, or in reality, the employer's insurance company. Unlike the malfeasor himself, the insurance company does have the cash available to make the payment.

It's not ideal, as it's another court process to go through, the malfeasor (usually) gets away without personally contributing, and even though the criminal court found the people guilty (a decision binding on the County Court by section 11 of the Civil Evidence Act 1968), the insurers will drag it out for years and try to argue that the employees conduct was outside of their employment, or the injuries weren't as severe as claimed, or the injured person could have got another job rather than lose income, etc., etc.

But once the process is complete, a successful civil damages claim would be measured in the thousands or tens of thousands (plus legal costs), rather than the couple of hundreds that a criminal court would give.

A reminder that Carlisle are also currently conducting onboard ticket checks on Merseyrail, two wandered into a carriage the other day, no ID or identifying marks on their uniforms asking for tickets - their ID was, in fairness quickly produced on request. They took someone off at the next stop for a penalty fare... but I do wonder whether the PTE & Union are happy with these agency staff continuing with onboard checks in light of this and other palladium-esque incidents.

The PTE probably agreed to tender the contract to be honest. And the rail unions are the ones who want guards to be present on trains but not undertaking revenue duties. So my guess is that neither the PTE and the Union would care less.

 

[L401CJF]

Their use with Merseytravel isn't just limited to Merseyrail. They also use them for bus station response, and have them call in on their other sites of a night including the Ferry Terminals, Woodside bus layover etc.

A post further back in the thread suggested the City Council should take action to stop them being used on Merseyrail, however Liverpool City Council also use Carlisle for a number of their sites.

Also worth mentioning when the various loop station refurbishment closures were in place along with the slabtrack replacement project in 2017, Carlisle drafted in agency staff to hang around loading rail buses and point people in the right direction. Clearly have a very heavy involvement on Merseyside!

 

[Stigy]

I think it’s also worth mentioning that Carlisle are a nationwide company, and it’s more than likely a few bad apples making the vast majority look bad. Maybe it’s the calibre of staff they have on the Merseyrail contract, but they have sites including the Ferry Terminal at Portsmouth, as well as some top end contracts including Jaguar Land Rover. Admittedly you will likely have more “hands on” staff on certain contracts, which probably include Merseyrail.

 

[AndrewE]

This is just so British - farming security out to private organisations, which are usually cowboys making money by employing thugs.

What is "so British" is giving a private supplier - of almost anything - free rein and pretending that a regulator will hold them to account if they ignore what the law or plain decency requires.
Look at the scandal of the Home Office's incarceration and deportation contractors, the negligable accountability of City (pension and investment) fraudsters and the thus-far immunity of Fujitsu, where their staff perjured themselves in court to say that Sub-Postmasters must have been stealing because the company could not alter the accounts - which they and the top PO directors knew to be a lie. Just one resignation so far. No successful prosecutions or convictions (apart from the innocent!)

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

is Jo Anderson on the board of Carlisle Group ?!

 

[Tallguy]

It does seem that the SIA scheme is not effective enough, and there really does need to be a clampdown on this kind of thing. The industry needs professionalising - it's professional enough in mainland Europe, so that's clearly not hard.

Clearly it needs big strong blokes (or women), but it needs military style professionalism, not thugs who do it because they'd never get any other job as is far too common.

Well said. Give someone an SIA badge and a uniform and they think they can go round beating the c**p out of people. I hope the security company concerned and Merseyrail find themselves on the end of a major lawsuit for damages from the individual who was assaulted.

The police DO break people's legs while arresting members of the public.

Have a look on YouTube

Indeed they do. Here is a classic example of Police thuggery breaking a mans leg -

 

[al78]

Nice victim blaming.

I suppose you take the same view of drunken girls who unfortunately are raped? Well, if they weren't drunk it would've never happened...

I think his point is that there is a possibility that the victim's behaviour could have been so extreme, for example a threat to life, that incapacitating him by breaking his legs may have been the lesser of evils. The law would allow me to kill an attacker if I could prove beyond doubt that it was the only way to stop him/her taking my life. I expect this is very unlikely, and I believe there are ways of restraining even very violent people which don't involve breaking their legs, so I would lean towards it being a gross over-reaction to the point where they should be prosecuted.

As for the victim blaming argument, it may be appropriate here but I think sometimes it gets applied too much. If I go out and leave my front door open and get burgled, am I completely blameless because people really shouldn't go around burgling? I doubt my home insurance policy would see it like that. Like it or not, in many situations like this, there is a degree of personal responsiblity involved, and sometimes the debate hinges on how much personal responsibility is deemed reasonable.

 

[Stigy]

Well said. Give someone an SIA badge and a uniform and they think they can go round beating the c**p out of people. I hope the security company concerned and Merseyrail find themselves on the end of a major lawsuit for damages from the individual who was assaulted.


Indeed they do. Here is a classic example of Police thuggery breaking a mans leg -

It of course doesn’t necessarily make it unlawful if a suspect sustains broken bones.

 

[HSTEd]

The cost of a police constable is up to £72.5k per annum including training and such.

Which explains why private security is so popular.

Do we know how many private security guards are employed by the railway?

 

[brassballs]

Carlisle Group aka the old Premier security that ran Liverpool doors back in the 90s. Criminal thugs with a SIA badge.

 

[8J]

Carlisle Group aka the old Premier security that ran Liverpool doors back in the 90s. Criminal thugs with a SIA badge.

Yep. I know some CSS staff who have criminal records for violence....

 

[Stigy]

The cost of a police constable is up to £72.5k per annum including training and such.

Which explains why private security is so popular.

Do we know how many private security guards are employed by the railway?

Thousands I’d imagine. I don’t know any TOC which doesn’t contract security out to private companies (even if they have their own staff such as RCO/REO etc).

I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing, to contract security out, but only if said TOCs have no intention of paying and training their own staff to do this work. After all, without static security on certain stations, it would be bedlam on certain nights of the week, and some security guards are actually okay.

 

[allotments]

I am sorry but I don’t understand why they were about to throw you off. Was it because you refused to show them your ticket? I doubt that is allowed. Revenue is not their responsibility. Personally I would have shown my ticket to save an argument.

Also, how come they let you stay on?

They appeared to have it in their heads that their role included checking tickets. But they hadn't even started by introducing themselves or explained in what capacity they were supposedly working. As a passenger minding his own business listening to music sitting with bicycle and pannier bags having boarded the train at Crewe, it was most unexpected to be interfered with by unknown persons looking like police at first glance but eminently having little training nor good manners.

Should the railway wish to employ personnel on trains, passengers first need to know what their role is. The role of security on TFWRail trains has never been explained to passengers properly, for example using notices at stations and on trains.

There's no way I'll simply comply with a strange request to do something from thugs dressed like police supposedly doing security on the train. I had never seen that behaviour before.

On train security can't just push passengers around.

The train was departing and no doubt they also had some sense that what they were doing and we're about to do was wrong. I told them so.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Nothing makes my heart sink like private security on the railway. There should be no place for it. It should be properly trained and equipped railway employees, or BTP constables. I am a train guard armed with no more than my wits and when private security get involved with almost anything I invariably seem to end up picking up the pieces, including on at least one occasion a few years ago now physically dragging the "security officer" off my train when they'd lost control of a conflict situation.

It never ceases to amaze me that you can go to somewhere like Belgium and see smart, professional looking security officers on the railway and yet come to the UK and it's farmed out to contractors, as often as not wielding nothing but an SIA badge and a hi vis with Security on it.

Did BR have many if any on the books whether contractor or directly employed? I never seem to notice them in old footage etc. I suppose there were far more station staff etc around in those days for things like parcels handling tasks.

Purely out of interest I had a look at the Belgian equivalent to MerseyRail's "officers" which is SecuRail - they're actually directly employed agents of the state with proper training who work alongside the police (Spoorweg Politie). I imagine that they're also quite expensive, however.

The continental approach to rail security is interesting and variable. I went on a Dutch private operator train a few years ago - it had a guard on board as Dutch trains do but the driver operated the doors unlike on NS (I think the train was a Flirt) and they were dressed much like a "proper" security officer and were extremely proactive about maintaining a pleasant onboard environment.

Surely it'd make more sense for the Train Operating Company to actually directly employ internal security rather than having contractors doing it.

My own personal opinion, I think most who are all SIA'd up have only gone in for the job as security staff is because they'd got personal / anger issues in which no other company in their right mind would employ as it would be an insurance and public relations nightmare when it all goes wrong.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Their use with Merseytravel isn't just limited to Merseyrail. They also use them for bus station response, and have them call in on their other sites of a night including the Ferry Terminals, Woodside bus layover etc.

A post further back in the thread suggested the City Council should take action to stop them being used on Merseyrail, however Liverpool City Council also use Carlisle for a number of their sites.

Also worth mentioning when the various loop station refurbishment closures were in place along with the slabtrack replacement project in 2017, Carlisle drafted in agency staff to hang around loading rail buses and point people in the right direction. Clearly have a very heavy involvement on Merseyside!

How long will it be before it leads to somebody's death, as with Metrolink's Palladium contract?