Merseyrail severed lines question

[61653 HTAFC]

Given the topography of Skelmersdale it'd be tricky to find the "best" location for a terminal station. With a bottomless budget, an underground station beneath the Concourse linked to the bus station would be ideal but wouldn't be suitable for the diesel services from Wigan.

 

[73001]

I'd assumed that the current Skelmersdale plans would be for all Kirkby EMUs extended to Skelmersdale, with a curve from the new Skem line towards Rainford/Wigan served by the current hourly Kirkby DMUs. Whether the existing line between the new curves would be retained, I have no idea- it probably wouldn't see much use if it was kept.

A terminal station at Skem with 2 platforms (either side of an island) would be sufficient, it may work as 2 separate bi-directional lines with only one being electrified but with 4tph to Liverpool double track might be needed.

There is a (usually) daily freight train from Kirkby transporting waste to the North East. I think it's a thirty year scheme/contract and there are two paths per day available so the current line would need to be retained.

 

[8A Rail]

This may seem a strange question but I was looking at the Merseyrail map and I was wondering why the Ellesmere Port, Borderlands, Ormskirk and Kirkby branches severed for the Merseyrail network and not just converted all the way?

I am only asking as it seems from beyond these stations heading towards Liverpool the Merseyrail has been a great success but heading the other way it seems the lines have become run down and not very well used.

Although not in the same context, the line to Hunts Cross, was originally served at Garston before extending to Hunts Cross (Platform 3) but the original intention / wish was to operate through to Halewood and Hough Green (Widnes) but never got off the drawing board. If you are curious, Hough Green station is actually part of the current Merseytravel bus/train pass travel area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although not in the same context, the line to Hunts Cross, was originally served at Garston before extending to Hunts Cross (Platform 3) but the original intention / wish was to operate through to Halewood and Hough Green (Widnes) but never got off the drawing board. If you are curious, Hough Green station is actually part of the current Merseytravel bus/train pass travel area.

I thought the long-term plan was to operate on towards Gateacre?

 

[Springs Branch]

I thought the long-term plan was to operate on towards Gateacre?

An article on Merseryrail developments appeared in Modern Railways in the late 1970s (sorry can't provide a precise reference) around the time the Loop and Link first opened.

This piece contained a map/diagram of future network plans which, I recall, had the extension to Hough Green as a "solid-line" medium term aspiration.

Reinstating the line to Gateacre and onwards along the ex-CLC North Liverpool Line towards Bootle (making a Liverpool outer loop) was a "dotted-line" long-term proposal. I think the Edge Hill spur connection from Central to the City Line also fell into this long-term category.

 

[Lankyline]

3rd rail installation dates back as far as 1904 to Crossens (Preston - Southport line) and 1913 to Ormskirk, so you could say it's been around for a while ! I can't ever see it being extended to Preston though as the cost would outweigh the benefits given the current use of the Preston - Ormskirk line, pity no one thought to try out class 73's on the line after the demise of steam.
If (and it's a big if) the Burscough curves were re-instated that may just provide the impetus for investment between Ormskirk and Southport, could it make economic sense to add 3rd rail from that direction as well ? Not a question I have the slightest idea of an answer to, just speculating.

 

[Requeststop]

What doesn't seem to have been mentioned is that the Bidston - Wrexham service (naturally) never ran through to Liverpool. when I first knew it in the early 70s in ran to New Brighton. I believe before that it ran to Seacombe (closed 1960). In the late 1970s (?) it was transferred to Birkenhead North (more convenient for Liverpool / Birkenhead). Later it was truncated to Bidston - probably so a saving of 1 unit could be made on an hourly service.

Your post seems to be ignored by others. You are correct in what you say. As far as I can remember of the Bidston-Wrexham service, ran to both Chester and Wrexham before the rationalisation of Chester in the latish 60's. There was also a Wrexham-Chester service via Shotton and Harwarden Bridge. I don't recall seeing a timetable for these services though you could travel Bidston to Chester via Harwarden Bridge. The Bidston curve towards Wallasey Village used to turn towards the Wallasey Docks and there used to be Iron Ore trains down to Shotton for the steel works. I'm not sure when this stopped. The curve in now up-lifted sadly. There was also the occasional goods train from the Cadbury's factory between Moreton and Leasowe carrying I don't know what to I don't know where. Maybe others may know.

You are right, there were services From New Brighton and then Birkenhead North down to Hawarden Bridge and Wrexham but as to whether or not they also ran to Chester, I'm not sure. My book on the Wirral Railways has not arrived from my old home in Thailand as yet.

Other threads here talk about more stations on the Wirral, and electrification of the Borderlines and Ellesmere Port to Helsby lines. Nice to think they'd come about but..................

 

[8A Rail]

I thought the long-term plan was to operate on towards Gateacre?

No, as "Springs Branch" has indicated, it was always Hough Green. I too remember the original aspirations of the MPTE during the 70's and overall plan was very good but as always hinge on the economic circumstances at the time along with the will of the said organisations too. However, in most cases as we are aware, never got off the drawing board sadly.

I think "if" Hough Green came back onto the drawing board, I think the aspirations would be to take it to Warrington Central instead but if anything it will be "overhead" electric power from LSP rather than third rail now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think "if" Hough Green came back onto the drawing board, I think the aspirations would be to take it to Warrington Central instead but if anything it will be "overhead" electric power from LSP rather than third rail now.

This would make more sense - the very large number of intermediate stations on the CLC would gain significantly from using high-acceleration EMUs instead of 50x or DMUs.

If you're going to wire, you almost might as well go all the way to Manchester, the other side of Warrington isn't much less dense station-wise, and some of the west Manchester suburban stations have a terrible service at present.

 

[8A Rail]

This would make more sense - the very large number of intermediate stations on the CLC would gain significantly from using high-acceleration EMUs instead of 50x or DMUs.

If you're going to wire, you almost might as well go all the way to Manchester, the other side of Warrington isn't much less dense station-wise, and some of the west Manchester suburban stations have a terrible service at present.

Yes i agree, it is the missing "link" in the area for overhead power and it is part of the NR plans to do it eventually

 

[Taunton]

There was also the occasional goods train from the Cadbury's factory between Moreton and Leasowe carrying I don't know what to I don't know where.

When we first moved from Somerset to The Wirral this was still running. It was the daily freight service on the West Kirby line, it ceased along with the end of steam at Bidston depot about 1966. A 3F tank would propel (yes) the wagons all the way on the down line from Birkenhead North to West Kirby, there being no run-round facilities, then shunt the coal merchants yard there, the gas works at Hoylake, and then the Cadbury's sidings on the way back. All Cadbury traffic was in vans; they also had some internal user vans done up in their own firm's livery, which never left the premises, and an 0-4-0 diesel shunter. My guess would be much of that van traffic was to/from Bournville.

Regarding the Borderlands line, 12 high-powered dmus (both cars powered) were specially built for the line and its Chester branch. They were originally ordered for the GC main line locals as normal units, then changed to this line and given extra power for the steep climb up from Shotton to Penyffordd. That 12 units were provided but the line now requires just two shows how the service has fallen off. One of these cars was the 1,000th dmu car built at Derby, and had a long board above the windows to this effect, just like the old main line train destination boards of the period similarly positioned.

 

[QueensCurve]

An article on Merseryrail developments appeared in Modern Railways in the late 1970s (sorry can't provide a precise reference) around the time the Loop and Link first opened.

Sadly my back issues only go to 1982. :cry:

 

[childwallblues]

The bulk of the traffic was always from Wales to Liverpool, much for shopping, and a long term trend is that Liverpool has declined notably as a shopping centre, while Chester has risen to take its place. BR of course closed the line from the Borderlands into Chester, while keeping the long and indirect route to Liverpool.

Always notable was the way the ambience inside the Merseyrail electric changed at Bidston, where it would fill up with connecting passengers, from Scouse suburban accents to Welsh language prevailing.

You are obviously not from the Merseyside area.
These days shopping wise Chester is definitely the poor relation since the Liverpool ONE Shopping Centre was opened. To say Chester has risen to take its place is now utter tosh.

 

[8A Rail]

The Borderlands line has seemingly lost a lot of the traffic it handled when I knew it well in the late 1960s, although it never had much (or could have had) from its stations within the Merseyside area, because all of Bidston, Upton and Heswall are in the middle of nowhere and could not have been more inconveniently sited for their respective urban areas if they had tried. The bulk of the traffic was always from Wales to Liverpool, much for shopping, and a long term trend is that Liverpool has declined notably as a shopping centre, while Chester has risen to take its place. BR of course closed the line from the Borderlands into Chester, while keeping the long and indirect route to Liverpool.

Always notable was the way the ambience inside the Merseyrail electric changed at Bidston, where it would fill up with connecting passengers, from Scouse suburban accents to Welsh language prevailing.

You are obviously not from the Merseyside area.These days shopping wise Chester is definitely the poor relation since the Liverpool ONE Shopping Centre was opened. To say Chester has risen to take its place is now utter tosh.

I totally agree with Childwall Blues. Sorry "Taunton", you are clearly living in the past. Liverpool City Centre has change considerably over the last 10 years or so especially since "Capital of Culture 2008". It is now one of the prime destinations in the UK for good shopping, amongst other considerable attractions. You may appreciate, Liverpool has always had close connections with North Wales especially and this has not changed, in fact probably strengthen once the Frodsham/Halton Curve comes live. Chester is a nice city, there is no doubt about that and will continue to attract visitors just like Liverpool and Manchester too.

 

[edwin_m]

This would make more sense - the very large number of intermediate stations on the CLC would gain significantly from using high-acceleration EMUs instead of 50x or DMUs.

If you're going to wire, you almost might as well go all the way to Manchester, the other side of Warrington isn't much less dense station-wise, and some of the west Manchester suburban stations have a terrible service at present.

A lot of sense to this in principle, but where would you terminate in Manchester? The bay at Oxford Road disappears as part of Northern Hub and there is of course no access to Victoria, so you're looking at running through at least as far as the Airport, which probably doesn't fit too well with a Merseyrail stopper. A further advantage of terminating somewhere in the Warrington area is that it is easier to fit stoppers between the faster trains if they only share for a shorter distance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't really mean to run Merseyrail to Manchester - carrying the wires on would be for services from Lime St.


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[edwin_m]

I didn't really mean to run Merseyrail to Manchester - carrying the wires on would be for services from Lime St.

That would be more sensible. With no tunnels and the difficult bits at either end already wired, CLC electrification ought to be pretty straightforward. The only big structure is the Ship Canal crossing, and I imagine that's the same construction as the WCML one at that was wired in the 70s.

 

[childwallblues]

I totally agree with Childwall Blues. Sorry "Taunton", you are clearly living in the past. Liverpool City Centre has change considerably over the last 10 years or so especially since "Capital of Culture 2008". It is now one of the prime destinations in the UK for good shopping, amongst other considerable attractions. You may appreciate, Liverpool has always had close connections with North Wales especially and this has not changed, in fact probably strengthen once the Frodsham/Halton Curve comes live. Chester is a nice city, there is no doubt about that and will continue to attract visitors just like Liverpool and Manchester too.

Spot on 8A Rail. Chester for shopping has not moved on in the past 20 years.

 

[Y961 XBU]

I see theres a lot of Talk about the Skem Line as if its Defiantly going to happen when really its still in planning stages and could not get passed that, I also cant see the Kirkby DMU Service going to Skem as that would be pointless since people use that Service to go Liverpool and not Skem

 

[Gareth]

I'm not sure I agree with that assertion. The people who use that line may not go to Skem but that's primarily because the line doesn't go to Skem to start with. The only place on that line of any notable size is Wigan. But most people will use the 3tph to Lime Street via St Helens Central to get to Liverpool rather than an hourly train to Kirkby and change. Skelmersdale is a fairly large town in its own right (second largest in the North West currently without a station) and I imagine it would generate plenty of journeys to and from Wigan and, indeed, beyond to Manchester. It would probably make the DMU service more viable and not so much of a 'Diesel Island'.

The plan, if my memory serves me correctly, is for a delta junction between Rainford & Upholland and a branch up to Skelmersdale, terminating near the Concourse. There is a minimum assumption of 2tph Merseyrail & 1tph Northern with aspiration for higher. Kirkby would become a 2 platform through station again and the proposed Headbolt Lane station would be where any trains that don't go on to Skelmersdale would turnback. Rainford would also become a Merseyrail station. The track into Skem will be twin track, both bidirectional. I presume that although both Merseyrail Electrics & Northern DMUs would be able to utilise either track and either platform in the terminal, the two services would stick to their 'side' of the arrangement in normal operation.

The only people truly put out by these proposals would be those who go between Pemberton, Orrell & Upholland to the east and Rainhill & Kirkby to the west, who would lose their current direct service and have to change. But these are surely fairly small passenger flows, comfortably outweighed by the benefits of connecting Skelmersdale to both the Merseyrail network and to Wigan/Greater Manchester.

 

[childwallblues]

I'm not sure I agree with that assertion. The people who use that line may not go to Skem but that's primarily because the line doesn't go to Skem to start with. The only place on that line of any notable size is Wigan. But most people will use the 3tph to Lime Street via St Helens Central to get to Liverpool rather than an hourly train to Kirkby and change. Skelmersdale is a fairly large town in its own right (second largest in the North West currently without a station) and I imagine it would generate plenty of journeys to and from Wigan and, indeed, beyond to Manchester. It would probably make the DMU service more viable and not so much of a 'Diesel Island'.

The plan, if my memory serves me correctly, is for a delta junction between Rainford & Upholland and a branch up to Skelmersdale, terminating near the Concourse. There is a minimum assumption of 2tph Merseyrail & 1tph Northern with aspiration for higher. Kirkby would become a 2 platform through station again and the proposed Headbolt Lane station would be where any trains that don't go on to Skelmersdale would turnback. Rainford would also become a Merseyrail station. The track into Skem will be twin track, both bidirectional. I presume that although both Merseyrail Electrics & Northern DMUs would be able to utilise either track and either platform in the terminal, the two services would stick to their 'side' or the arrangement in normal operation.

The only people truly put out by these proposals would be those who go between Pemberton, Orrell & Upholland to the east and Rainhill & Kirkby to the west, who would lose their current direct service and have to change. But these are surely fairly small passenger flows, comfortably outweighed by the benefits of connecting Skelmersdale to both the Merseyrail network and to Wigan/Greater Manchester.

Skelmersdale was an overspill town for Merseyside in the 1960s. When Merseyside was set up in 1974 Skemersdale should have been included. It would not have been out on a limb as it is today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Skelmersdale was an overspill town for Merseyside in the 1960s. When Merseyside was set up in 1974 Skemersdale should have been included. It would not have been out on a limb as it is today.

The idea, as with all the New Towns, was of a self-contained town containing homes, leisure facilities and employment, so it really didn't matter where it was - and it does have a station, Upholland, which while in one corner arguably is as convenient as a Concourse station because most travel is by car.

But things never turn out quite as planned, and it didn't work half as well as intended. And of course MKC was built - the original plan there was that Wolverton and Bletchley would be adequate.

 

[edwin_m]

The idea, as with all the New Towns, was of a self-contained town containing homes, leisure facilities and employment, so it really didn't matter where it was - and it does have a station, Upholland, which while in one corner arguably is as convenient as a Concourse station because most travel is by car.

But things never turn out quite as planned, and it didn't work half as well as intended. And of course MKC was built - the original plan there was that Wolverton and Bletchley would be adequate.

In that case what they obviously missed was the growth in two-income households, which inevitably results in longer travel-to-work journeys unless both partners are lucky enough to find a job close together.

I can't imagine many people travel to Upholland by any method to travel into Liverpool, when it involves getting out and changing trains after two stops and if they miss the train back it would be a long wait at Kirkby. So extending the electric service just to Upholland might deliver most of benefit from local residents' point of view.

Extending to the centre of Skelmersdale would also create the opportunity for inwards travel to employment and other facilities there which are too far to walk from Upholland. Never having been there I don't know what those facilities are or how many people they might attract.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In that case what they obviously missed was the growth in two-income households, which inevitably results in longer travel-to-work journeys unless both partners are lucky enough to find a job close together.

Indeed. In the 1970s when the New Towns started, most families had one income, normally the father. That has changed since, which has changed the way people live and travel to/from work.

I can't imagine many people travel to Upholland by any method to travel into Liverpool, when it involves getting out and changing trains after two stops and if they miss the train back it would be a long wait at Kirkby. So extending the electric service just to Upholland might deliver most of benefit from local residents' point of view.

Quite possibly. TBH, third rail to the bay at Wigan Wallgate would probably be the operationally easiest thing to do, with half the trains terminating at Kirkby and half working through to Wigan.

Extending to the centre of Skelmersdale would also create the opportunity for inwards travel to employment and other facilities there which are too far to walk from Upholland. Never having been there I don't know what those facilities are or how many people they might attract.

This is true - worth noting that MK has more inbound commuting than outbound these days. Skem isn't quite as economically strong, but it's also smaller. That said, much of the heavy industry that is left is much closer to Upholland than any Concourse station - it basically centres on the M58. So inbound commuting, except for those working in shops, is most likely to be by car.

 

[urbophile]

Originally Posted by Neil Williams
'The idea, as with all the New Towns, was of a self-contained town containing homes, leisure facilities and employment, so it really didn't matter where it was - and it does have a station, Upholland, which while in one corner arguably is as convenient as a Concourse station because most travel is by car.'

I used to live in the south-eastern corner of Skelmersdale, nearest to Upholland. Even then it took over 20 minutes to walk to Upholland station, mostly through a dreary industrial estate (not that the residential parts of Skem are much less dreary). As far as I remember, there is next to no car-parking space at Upholland, and why anyone with a car would prefer to drive two or three miles in the wrong direction to catch an indirect train to Liverpool in preference to driving to Kirkby with a frequent direct service I can't imagine.

The Concourse is the obvious, and only viable, place for a Skelmersdale Central station. It is walkable from most parts of the new town and well-served by buses. Skem was designed for the motor age and settled at a time when few people could afford cars. Typical short-sighted planning. Now we are trying to encourage people out of their cars, so the status quo is getting less acceptable.

 

[Gareth]

And Skelmersdale actually has relatively low car ownership. Additionally, what about teenagers and people who want to have a pint or two after their shop in Liverpool?

I had a look at the plans yesterday and there's two sites being considered...

1. Site of Glenburn High School
2. Land at the back of the Concourse

Both are fairly central and a hell of a lot better than Upholland for most of the town.

Simply electrifying the existing diesel line to Wallgate may well be the easier option but electric trains at 2tph from Upholland wouldn't bring the station any closer to Skelmersdale. Perhaps a business case could be made for both the Skem link and the rest of the line to Wallgate to be electrified and put onto Merseyrail, with 2tph to go to each. A big drawback to this would be that there'd almost certainly be no direct Skem-Wigan service.

 

[ivanhoe]

Skem has now been up and running for 50 years now. We are into the third generation who now need to be accommodated. Whilst I'm sure they have kept their football allegiances what I would like to know is the demand for such journeys to be linked into Merseyrail. Do they see Wigan as the town to go and shop or do they really need options to be able to travel to both Liverpool and Manchester for work opportunities? I simply don't know and I'm always weary of any aspirations emanating from Merseytravel.

 

[Bevan Price]

Your post seems to be ignored by others. You are correct in what you say. As far as I can remember of the Bidston-Wrexham service, ran to both Chester and Wrexham before the rationalisation of Chester in the latish 60's. There was also a Wrexham-Chester service via Shotton and Harwarden Bridge. I don't recall seeing a timetable for these services though you could travel Bidston to Chester via Harwarden Bridge. The Bidston curve towards Wallasey Village used to turn towards the Wallasey Docks and there used to be Iron Ore trains down to Shotton for the steel works. I'm not sure when this stopped. The curve in now up-lifted sadly. There was also the occasional goods train from the Cadbury's factory between Moreton and Leasowe carrying I don't know what to I don't know where. Maybe others may know.

You are right, there were services From New Brighton and then Birkenhead North down to Hawarden Bridge and Wrexham but as to whether or not they also ran to Chester, I'm not sure. My book on the Wirral Railways has not arrived from my old home in Thailand as yet.

.

Summer !959. Pre-diesel service was a bit irregular, with more trains on saturdays than SX, and with a few long gaps (2 - 3 hours).

Main services were:

Seacombe to Wrexham or to Shotton (connections for Chester at Hawarden Bridge) ;

Chester Northgate to Wrexham or to Shotton, with a couple of short workings to Buckley. Typical journey time Seacombe to Wrexham about 85 minutes; Chester to Wrexham about one hour.


Summer 1963 - dmu services. Not regular interval, but much more frequent than 1959.
Services ran from New Brighton to Chester Northgate, Shotton or Wrexham, plus a few short workings to Neston North. New Brighton typically had one train every 40 to 60 minutes. Journey time to Wrexham Central just under 70 minutes (60-61 mins. from Bidston). New Brighton to Chester journey time about 47-48 minutes by through trains, or just under one hour using connections at Hawarden Bridge.

Services from Chester Northgate ran to Wrexham, Shotton or New Brighton, with a few short workings to Sealand. Chester to Wrexham journey time around 50 minutes.

 

[WatcherZero]

Skem has now been up and running for 50 years now. We are into the third generation who now need to be accommodated. Whilst I'm sure they have kept their football allegiances what I would like to know is the demand for such journeys to be linked into Merseyrail. Do they see Wigan as the town to go and shop or do they really need options to be able to travel to both Liverpool and Manchester for work opportunities? I simply don't know and I'm always weary of any aspirations emanating from Merseytravel.

From the Wiganers perspective Skem is like an edge of town industrial estate, lots of logistics and call centre jobs. About half of all jobs and population in West Lancashire are in Skelmersdale and these are the commuting patterns for West Lancashire (so around half would be Skem itself with some geographic fluctuation i.e. would be higher proportion flows in Skem between close neighbours than West Lancashire as a whole, its a large mostly rural county apart from Skelmersdale and Ormskirk surrounded by Southport, Merseyside, Wigan, Warrington and Chorley)

People commuting in to West Lancashire
Sefton 5,220 (13%)
Wigan 4,763 (12%)
St. Helens 1,775 (4%)
Liverpool 1,461 (4%)
Chorley 1,077 (3%)
Knowsley 992 (2%)
South Ribble 849 (2%)
Warrington 396 (1%)
Preston 353 (0.9%)
Bolton 287 (0.7%)
Wirral 285 (0.7%)
Other 2,371 (6%)
Liverpool City Region LEP 9,925 (25%)
Greater Manchester LEP 5,762 (14%)
Lancashire LEP 2,800 (7%)
Total in-flow 19,800

And people commuting out of West Lancashire

Sefton 5,476 (13%)
Liverpool 3,042 (7%)
Wigan 2,483 (6%)
Preston 1,298 (3%)
St. Helens 1,177 (3%)
South Ribble 1,177 (3%)
Knowsley 1,149 (3%)
Chorley 942 (2%)
Manchester 629 (1%)
Warrington 626 (1%)
Fylde 282 (0.7%)
Bolton 280 (0.7%)
Salford 278 (0.7%)
Trafford 249 (0.6%)
Halton 211 (0.5%)
Wirral 174 (0.4%)
Other 2,520 (6%)
Liverpool City Region LEP 11,229 (26%)
Greater Manchester LEP 4,208 (10%)
Lancashire LEP 4,357 (10%)
Total out-flow 22,000

https://infrastructure.planninginspectorate.gov.uk/document/2744220

 

[Gareth]

So the answer to invanhoe's question is 'yes' basically.

Also, I'm pretty sure it's a Lancashire plan with Merseytravel and TfGM support. And I'm confident it will happen.

Furthermore, it's not a choice of Merseyrail versus Wigan. The plan involves links to both. So they get to support Liverpool FC and have a day out in Wigan. They can have it all!