Merseyrail/Travel ticketing policy

[urbophile]

On the London Travelcard thread, Bletchleyite said:
'Merseyrail abolished Railcards for "internal" use by replacing their off peak day singles/returns with day tickets, and almost nobody complained. I don't agree with it (they could have discounted the day tickets) but it hasn't been controversial at all, really.'

Can Bletchleyite or someone explain this? As a Concessionary Pass holder I don't usually have to bother with fares on Merseyrail, but on the rare occasions I have to travel before 9.30 I have always got the railcard discount. Are you talking about something else?

More generally, does anyone know the up to date situation about Saveaways/Metro Card/ all forms of electronic ticketing in use in the Merseytravel area?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail do not have Off Peak Day Returns for "internal" journeys. These were replaced with zonal day tickets, priced somewhat cynically 5p below the Saveaway with the same validity (but valid on buses and ferries too). These day tickets are not eligible for Railcard discounts.

They do still have Anytime Day Singles and Returns. These are Railcard discounted, but many Railcards aren't valid/have a minimum fare before 10am so aren't much use for these.

One can buy a Railcard discounted Anytime ticket during the off-peak, of course, if that's cheaper, but it's mostly not except for very short journeys.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Most types of Railcard are available for tickets on MerseyRail apart from Daysaver, Saveaway and Merseyrail Family ticket.

But the threshold where a Daysaver becomes a better deal than a railcard-discounted Anytime Return means that for most purposes, the discounted Anytime Return is better.

For example, Southport to Port Sunlight. Daysaver £6.00. Anytime Return £5.25. Southport to Ellesmere Port. Daysaver £6.00. Anytime Return £6.20. So you have to go a long way to get a saving with a Daysaver.

Of course if your intention is to roam about a bit with the Daysaver, then it soon beats individual Anytime Singles/Returns, but unlimited break of journey is allowed so a ticket from Southport to Port Sunlight affords the opportunities to visit Bootle, Liverpool, and Birkenhead to name but a few exotic Merseyside locations, all for 75p less than a DaySaver! As long as you don't double back on yourself.

Next week I may well go to Port Sunlight with my wife and granddaughter, in which case the MerseyRail Family Ticket for £13 is a nobrainer because 2xAnytime Return (Senior Railcard) plus one Child Daysaver exceeds £13.

[PS. I live in that part of Southport, still in Lancashire, not entitled to MerseyTravel concessions, which is why I need to understand the tricks for using Senior Railcard on MerseyRail, including the black magic of how to buy valid Off-Peak Returns from Southport to points south of Hall Road, for less than the MerseyRail Anytime fares.]

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I bought a Daysaver (ie Merseyrail only ranger ticket) online last week.
You get a PDF e-ticket, but the barcode doesn't work the Merseyrail barriers, nor at Chester (TfW).
The manual gatekeeper in Liverpool checks the date by sight, not by scanning the barcode.
I used it to roam the Chester/EPort-Liverpool routes on a couple of 777s.
Much quieter than 50x, but the squealing through the tunnels is still there.

 

[Spandau]

I think Merseyrail tried to bar use of railcards for local journeys. Mention of this has disappeared from their website so I am guessing they got their wrists slapped and were told to stick to the national conditions.

 

[Watershed]

Merseyrail still set Off-Peak Day Returns for some journeys that go beyond their network. If you have a Railcard and are travelling anything more than a couple of stations within their network, this can be a fair bit cheaper than Saveaway or Day tickets - for example, Southport to Hough Green with a Railcard is only £3.85 for an Off-Peak Day Return, whereas a Saveaway is £6.

 

[Statto]

I bought a Daysaver (ie Merseyrail only ranger ticket) online last week.
You get a PDF e-ticket, but the barcode doesn't work the Merseyrail barriers, nor at Chester (TfW).
The manual gatekeeper in Liverpool checks the date by sight, not by scanning the barcode.
I used it to roam the Chester/EPort-Liverpool routes on a couple of 777s.
Much quieter than 50x, but the squealing through the tunnels is still there.

I wouldn't bother buying a Merseyrail Daysaver, an all area Saveaway is 5p more at £6 with the same time restrictions (your not allowed to use Daysaver for journeys starting between 06.30 & 09.29 Monday to Friday), & Saveaway has wider validity on buses, non Merseyrail Trains, & Ferries in the Merseyside area

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I wouldn't bother buying a Merseyrail Daysaver, an all area Saveaway is 5p more at £6 with the same time restrictions (your not allowed to use Daysaver for journeys starting between 06.30 & 09.29 Monday to Friday), & Saveaway has wider validity on buses, non Merseyrail Trains, & Ferries in the Merseyside area

Well, I didn't need the extra validity, and I think the Saveaway is only issued on a Metro card (I still have a Walrus card) at a station.
I just wanted to test the e-ticket options, but it's a feeble implementation really.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think Merseyrail tried to bar use of railcards for local journeys. Mention of this has disappeared from their website so I am guessing they got their wrists slapped and were told to stick to the national conditions.

I have not heard of them attempting it for point to point tickets, aside from the replacement of most Off Peaks with day tickets which don't and never did allow discounts.

 

[Djgr]

Well, I didn't need the extra validity, and I think the Saveaway is only issued on a Metro card (I still have a Walrus card) at a station.
I just wanted to test the e-ticket options, but it's a feeble implementation really.

They will swap your old Walrus card for a new Metrocard for no charge when you buy a Saveaway.

I wouldn't bother buying a Merseyrail Daysaver, an all area Saveaway is 5p more at £6 with the same time restrictions (your not allowed to use Daysaver for journeys starting between 06.30 & 09.29 Monday to Friday), & Saveaway has wider validity on buses, non Merseyrail Trains, & Ferries in the Merseyside area

Daysaver is just a scam. Even if you pay £1 for your first Metrocard the Saveaway is such a better product. Hopefully as LCR gets more control over public transport it can get rid of banditry practices, like the Daysaver.

 

[JBuchananGB]

It has been covered extensively elsewhere, but for completeness, the MerseyTravel Saveaway is available without a MetroCard from non MerseyRail ticket offices and from Northern TVMs. No use to a holder of a Senior Railcard like me but I did once buy one on a Walrus card for my granddaughter. If I want to go on a bus I will use my Lancashire CC issued ENCTS pass.

 

[Djgr]

It has been covered extensively elsewhere, but for completeness, the MerseyTravel Saveaway is available without a MetroCard from non MerseyRail ticket offices and from Northern TVMs. No use to a holder of a Senior Railcard like me but I did once buy one on a Walrus card for my granddaughter. If I want to go on a bus I will use my Lancashire CC issued ENCTS pass.

and another reminder that the Saveaway covers all TOCs e.g. Northern, TfW, TPE and therefore covers a much wider area (e.g. Meols Cop, Garswood, Newton le Willows, Hough Green, Heswall). It also covers the Mersey Ferries as well as the buses.

For 5p extra!!!!

 

[eastend43]

They will swap your old Walrus card for a new Metrocard for no charge when you buy a Saveaway.

I recently got charged £1 (at a Merseyrail station) for swapping an old Walrus card for a new Metrocard (actually it was swapping 5 Walrus cards for Metrocards when I had family visiting). We were rushing for a train so didn't have time to argue. I complained (and after a few emails back and forward) I got refunded that charge, but the last email from Merseyrail suggested that they were contacting to Merseytravel to remind them that there is a £1 charge.

The exact line in the email from the Merseyrail person dealing with my complaint was:

"I will email Merseytravel to make it clearer that there is a £1 charge for new Metro Cards."

which, to me, suggests that Merseyrail feels they were right to charge for the swap.

I tried to look on the Merseytravel website for any confirmation that they swapped the old Walrus card for a new Metrocard for free when buying a Saveaway (as I was sure I had seen something when the new Metrocard came out) but couldn't see anything anymore - just that it would be swapped (with no mention that it would be done for no charge).

 

[Djgr]

I recently got charged £1 (at a Merseyrail station) for swapping an old Walrus card for a new Metrocard (actually it was swapping 5 Walrus cards for Metrocards when I had family visiting). We were rushing for a train so didn't have time to argue. I complained (and after a few emails back and forward) I got refunded that charge, but the last email from Merseyrail suggested that they were contacting to Merseytravel to remind them that there is a £1 charge.

The exact line in the email from the Merseyrail person dealing with my complaint was:

"I will email Merseytravel to make it clearer that there is a £1 charge for new Metro Cards."

which, to me, suggests that Merseyrail feels they were right to charge for the swap.

I tried to look on the Merseytravel website for any confirmation that they swapped the old Walrus card for a new Metrocard for free when buying a Saveaway (as I was sure I had seen something when the new Metrocard came out) but couldn't see anything anymore - just that it would be swapped (with no mention that it would be done for no charge).

What is it to do with Merseyrail?

It is Merseytravel who decide this (nominal) charge and tell Merseyrail what they should or shouldn't collect.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Hopefully as LCR gets more control over public transport it can get rid of banditry practices, like the Daysaver.

The Merseyrail concession is awarded by Merseytravel.

As others have said, I seem to recall the Daysaver came about because Merseytravel/Merseyrail wanted to abolish day returns on the network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Merseyrail concession is awarded by Merseytravel.

As others have said, I seem to recall the Daysaver came about because Merseytravel/Merseyrail wanted to abolish day returns on the network.

Though as it's priced 5p below the Saveaway, I'm not quite sure why they don't just issue Saveaways.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Though as it's priced 5p below the Saveaway, I'm not quite sure why they don't just issue Saveaways.

Only reason I can think of is the requirement to have a Metro Card for the Saveaway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only reason I can think of is the requirement to have a Metro Card for the Saveaway.

Hasn't always been the case - they were sold as scratchcards before that, and I think for a period as normal tickets as they still are from Northern stations.

I'm fairly sure that the reason they exist is simply a classic "5p cheaper" revenue grab on behalf of ex-Abellio Merseyrail which, unlike the previous operation, does carry some revenue risk and thus does benefit from it. This small amount of commercial freedom was put in the present contract because the previous one felt they had no motivation to protect revenue and thus mostly didn't (e.g. Liverpool Central was an open station for a fair while).

 

[AntoniC]

I commute (Southport to Moorfields and back) twice a week for work and I get the £6 ticket (on the Metro card) so if the trains get cancelled I can hop on the X2/47/300 bus and still get home.
To me its worth paying the extra 5p a day for the convenience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I commute (Southport to Moorfields and back) twice a week for work and I get the £6 ticket (on the Metro card) so if the trains get cancelled I can hop on the X2/47/300 bus and still get home.
To me its worth paying the extra 5p a day for the convenience.

Now I've got a Metro card I always get the Saveaway rather than the day ticket if in the area, you never know if it'll be useful during disruption as you say, and it's 5p, which is effectively nothing. But some value-conscious people (Martyn Lewis fan club ) are very motivated by even small sums of money, hence the success of the "bag tax".

Interestingly in the 1980s Merseytravel only offered multimodal seasons and day tickets, and the only point to point tickets were singles and returns (standard day and cheap day) - point to point seasons were only sold for journeys that went outside the PTE area, which at the time didn't encompass north of Maghull or south of Hooton. The Solo bus-only season ticket came first, then the Railpass, then the Merseyrail only day ticket. And bus operator specific season tickets I think didn't exist under MTL, only after the Arriva takeover did these crop up. Which is all rather a step backwards on integration.

 

[fandroid]

The Merseyrail concession is awarded by Merseytravel.

As others have said, I seem to recall the Daysaver came about because Merseytravel/Merseyrail wanted to abolish day returns on the network.

IIRC Nexus (Tyne and Wear Metro) are the same. No day returns, just a day ticket. It fits with Merseytravel's desire for Merseyrail to be seen as a Metro system, similar to city systems all over Europe

 

[Tetchytyke]

Hasn't always been the case - they were sold as scratchcards before that, and I think for a period as normal tickets as they still are from Northern stations.

I'm fairly sure that the reason they exist is simply a classic "5p cheaper" revenue grab

I’m only an irregular traveller into Liverpool and so I have previously used the DaySaver as £1.05 is enough of a saving when I knew I’d only be using the trains.

Last time I was there I needed a Saveaway and, ironically, I couldn’t buy a Metro Card Saveaway at either James St (Water St) or Lime St Low Level as the smart card system had crashed. So I ended up getting one on paper at Lime St main line and therefore still don’t have a Metro Card.

It fits with Merseytravel's desire for Merseyrail to be seen as a Metro system

A bit like with London Overground, Merseyrail/Merseytravel do struggle sometimes with the concept of being part of the National Rail network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

IIRC Nexus (Tyne and Wear Metro) are the same. No day returns, just a day ticket. It fits with Merseytravel's desire for Merseyrail to be seen as a Metro system, similar to city systems all over Europe

T&W Metro of course isn't a National Rail operation so one wouldn't expect Railcard validity. Though neither is London Underground other than on the shared sections, and that *does* allow Railcard discounts!

It's not the day ticket thing I object to - in my ideal urban transport system (and not at all coincidentally all the German ones) the only return ticket is a zonal multimodal day ticket. It's the sly way it was used to basically abolish Railcard discounts for most users, and thus a stealth fare increase.

And £0.05 cheaper is just the PTE version of an ORCATS raid. Plenty of this "5p cheaper" journey planner raiding nonsense all over the railway, and I'd ban it entirely, as I've said before, mandating a fairly significant (maybe at least 10% or £5, whichever is greater) discount before an operator or route specific ticket is allowed.

I’m only an irregular traveller into Liverpool and so I have previously used the DaySaver as £1.05 is enough of a saving when I knew I’d only be using the trains.

£1.05 once. £0.05 for the rest of your life*

I understand people moaning about the hefty £7 cost of an Oyster card, but £1?

£0.05 is a superb value insurance policy to allow you to use the bus or ferry in disruption, or to use another line e.g. Northern out of Lime St and a taxi if that suits your journey.

* Well, until they do away with the card, but that won't be soon.

 

[Wallsendmag]

T&W Metro of course isn't a National Rail operation so one wouldn't expect Railcard validity. Though neither is London Underground other than on the shared sections, and that *does* allow Railcard discounts!

It's not the day ticket thing I object to - in my ideal urban transport system (and not at all coincidentally all the German ones) the only return ticket is a zonal multimodal day ticket. It's the sly way it was used to basically abolish Railcard discounts for most users, and thus a stealth fare increase.

And £0.05 cheaper is just the PTE version of an ORCATS raid. Plenty of this "5p cheaper" journey planner raiding nonsense all over the railway, and I'd ban it entirely, as I've said before, mandating a fairly significant (maybe at least 10% or £5, whichever is greater) discount before an operator or route specific ticket is allowed.



£1.05 once. £0.05 for the rest of your life*

I understand people moaning about the hefty £7 cost of an Oyster card, but £1?

£0.05 is a superb value insurance policy to allow you to use the bus or ferry in disruption, or to use another line e.g. Northern out of Lime St and a taxi if that suits your journey.

* Well, until they do away with the card, but that won't be soon.

National Rail tickets are available to various destinations on the Metro and can be discounted with Railcards

 

[Bletchleyite]

National Rail tickets are available to various destinations on the Metro and can be discounted with Railcards

Through tickets onto all manner of non-National Rail services are available and discountable, not least most urban buses the whole country over.

 

[Djgr]

I am astonished at the number of people on this forum who see getting a MetroCard as this insurmountable hurdle. It is one hundred new pence, guys, as a one off, that takes about 30 seconds. At worst, think of it as a souvenir of your day. The Saveaway is a fantastic value product and, if you haven't ridden it, the Mersey Ferry is a must.

I do think the Merseyrail Day Saver is a confusion based scam of the worst kind and I don't think that they should be allowed to offer it.

I agree that staff and locals see Merseyrail as not part of the National Rail network. One reason is that they compare Merseyrail to the likes of Northern, whose commitment to and knowledge of the requirements of local residents has always been weak and see no advantages in Merseyrail being part of this.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Through tickets onto all manner of non-National Rail services are available and discountable, not least most urban buses the whole country over.

Newcastle to sunderland isn't a through ticket though , it can be used wholly on the Metro with a discount

 

[JBuchananGB]

I had a nice day out today with a MerseyRail Family Ticket. Two Senior Railcard holders and one child, and at £13 it still beat the price of individual tickets which would have been 2x Anytime Day Returns Southport to Port Sunlight, and one child Daysaver. And to think I only found out this ticket existed when I was scrolling through a Northern TVM to see if it could sell MerseyTravel Saveaways. And not once did anyone actually look at the ticket. I also had the enjoyment of my first trips on class 777 in both directions between Liverpool and Port Sunlight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Newcastle to sunderland isn't a through ticket though , it can be used wholly on the Metro with a discount

Every rule requires an exception - presumably that's because it's a joint service?

 

[prod_pep]

I’m only an irregular traveller into Liverpool and so I have previously used the DaySaver as £1.05 is enough of a saving when I knew I’d only be using the trains.

If I were a day-tripper to Merseyside who only intended to use the Northern and Wirral Lines of Merseyrail, I'd do exactly the same and make a nice wee saving. Any incredulity at this comes across as 'I'm profligate about small sums of money - and so should you be'. No, thanks, I'll take a £1.05 saving all day and be spared yet another card that hardly sees any use.

It doesn't matter a jot that the Saveaway is a 'better product' if you're only using Merseyrail. As for the 'insurance' of alternative travel, things hardly ever go so wrong on Merseyrail that you'd need any.

The Day Saver at just five pence below a Saveaway is one thing, but only issuing Saveaways on a paid-for card is as much a 'scam' as far as I'm concerned.