Merseyrail

[ukrob]

Indeed, it isn't worth remembering at all really, they were never four car on Merseyrail, except for one unit, once (and even then it may have been a 507) for a test.

And no, the underground stations can not take 8 cars. Some surface stations could but are fenced off to six car length and significantly overgrown in the fenced off part. The vast majority are 6 car length.

 

[daikilo]

Indeed, it isn't worth remembering at all really, they were never four car on Merseyrail, except for one unit, once (and even then it may have been a 507) for a test.

And no, the underground stations can not take 8 cars. Some surface stations could but are fenced off to six car length and significantly overgrown in the fenced off part. The vast majority are 6 car length.

Nothing like a few facts in a conceptual debate.

I guess the surface station platforms were shortened at least 30 years ago. Thanks.

 

[First class]

A few sources may well suggest that there will be significant changes when new rolling stock is acquired.

Wait and see

 

[ukrob]

A few sources may well suggest that there will be significant changes when new rolling stock is acquired.

Wait and see

Indeed, some more realistic than others.

It is a safe assumption that underground platforms are not going to be lengthened.

That means trains will either be three or six car length (as at present), or a fixed length equal to a current three or six car train (for example four or eight coaches of a shorter length.

Another option would be four and two car units which is a non-starter due to the lack of flexibility. Yet another option would be longer trains with SDO for underground stations. This is again unlikely as there is no worthwhile gain in seven coach units, and eight coach units would mean entire carriages at the front and rear off the platforms, fouling points.

The only serious option is trains of a length of either 60m (current 3 car) or 120m (2x3 car).

 

[prod_pep]

Indeed, it isn't worth remembering at all really, they were never four car on Merseyrail, except for one unit, once (and even then it may have been a 507) for a test.

And no, the underground stations can not take 8 cars. Some surface stations could but are fenced off to six car length and significantly overgrown in the fenced off part. The vast majority are 6 car length.

The 4-car test you mention was indeed "our" stock, namely two Class 508s. I believe this was during the early 90s: the TS from set 508101 was inserted into 508134 and several tests were carried out over a few weeks. The results from and purpose of the testing is not known.

 

[trainophile]

A 6-car unit is simply 2 x 3-car units coupled together.

3-car unit is: A-T-B
6-car unit is: A-T-B-A-T-B

"A" and "B" have a driving cab in them (and motors underneath), the "T" is a trailer and has nothing but batteries underneath.

It is worth remembering that the 508s were originally 4-car units.

I woke up in the night feeling such an idiot because I'd forgotten about the permanent linking "tubes" between A & T and T & B. I've got it now!

Edit: What's the reason they can't start the 6-car trains running earlier than they currently do? From 3.30 to 4.30 they are packed with school children, who generally aren't exactly the most considerate of fellow passengers noise-wise!

 

[ukrob]

I woke up in the night feeling such an idiot because I'd forgotten about the permanent linking "tubes" between A & T and T & B. I've got it now!

Edit: What's the reason they can't start the 6-car trains running earlier than they currently do? From 3.30 to 4.30 they are packed with school children, who generally aren't exactly the most considerate of fellow passengers noise-wise!

There are only a limited number of spare units to make six car trains with. I don't know where abouts you are talking about but as a broad example, if you put the six cars on earlier then they totally miss the rush hour through Liverpool meaning the busiest trains end up being three car.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

In any case, the 4th cars are all still in service with SWT, they augmented some 455s ( the 455/7s ) that were built as 3 cars with the intention of receiving the 508 trailers when the latter moved to Merseyrail.

 

[Intermodal]

I wonder if I could take this opportunity to ask for someone to explain to me the difference between a 507 and a 508? I imagine it is some difference in production or something on the technical side because they seem identical to me!

 

[First class]

I wonder if I could take this opportunity to ask for someone to explain to me the difference between a 507 and a 508? I imagine it is some difference in production or something on the technical side because they seem identical to me!

Other than a few bits of equipment in different places in the cabs then really not much.

 

[plannerman]

From the outside the only obvious difference is the amount of electrical equipment slung under the centre car. As the 508's were built as four-car units, they have more compressors etc because of the greater number of doors to operate. The 507's, by comparison, are pretty bare under the trailer.

 

[YesToHS2]

Has anyone heard or read anything about the replacement of rolling stock. It was stated that rolling stock would be replaced around 2014 but they haven't even put the order out to tender yet so that date has gone out the window. The head of Mersey Rail has come out as saying it's hard work keeping the 508s in service. Over All the Mersey Rail is okay I gues but the rolling stock is made up of cast offs from London and should of been replaced years ago.

 

[ukrob]

Has anyone heard or read anything about the replacement of rolling stock. It was stated that rolling stock would be replaced around 2014 but they haven't even put the order out to tender yet so that date has gone out the window. The head of Mersey Rail has come out as saying it's hard work keeping the 508s in service. Over All the Mersey Rail is okay I gues but the rolling stock is made up of cast offs from London and should of been replaced years ago.

Cast-offs from London? The 507 and 508s were built for Merseyside. The 507s have never worked anywhere else, and the 508s spent a short spell down south. London Overground (Silverlink) and Great Eastern (Connex) had OUR cast-offs!

The 2014 date is not out the window at all either - but I would be surprised if they are replaced before then.

 

[YesToHS2]

We might end up with some more 508s from the Connex South Eastern, Mersey Rail seem desperate for more stock.

4 years seems like no time at all though when it comes to the procurement of new rolling stock. It sure would be nice though to have new trains. Rather than just sending up more 508s this way.

 

[ukrob]

We might end up with some more 508s from the Connex South Eastern, Mersey Rail seem desperate for more stock.

4 years seems like no time at all though when it comes to the procurement of new rolling stock. It sure would be nice though to have new trains. Rather than just sending up more 508s this way.

Two London Overground units came as far as Warrington in November but were turned away, so the need for units is not as dire as is made out.

To be honest, trains might be full at peak, but they are incredibly spacious in the peak hours compared to many others areas of the country - including Northern services out of Lime Street. It really isn't that bad comparatively.

 

[frodshamfella]

I use the service from South Parkway into Liverpool quite often, both to central and Lime Street (although that is not Merseyrail) and think its a pretty good service. What i would like, and have mentioned before, but I know this may well be way off if ever !! Is a service via the Halton curve, to improve services to Frodsham, Helsby and Chester. I also think the Ellesmere Port service should extend onwards via Stanlow etc to Helsby and onwards Warrington BQ...even to Manchester, which would be a relief to the overcrowded hourly ATW service....all nice ideas...now who shall i write my cheque to to get things going !!

 

[mickey]

Does anyone know what this is about?

And if it's "excluding drivers and guards", does that mean we won't notice much?

 

[First class]

It means that if all station staff walk out, by law, the underground stations have to shut due to the sub-surface fire regulations (staffing) unless you can provide the legal minimum number of staff during all hours of operation.

MINIMUM STAFFING LEVELS:
Moorfields, with OHS open needs 5 per shift, 3 if OHS is closed.
Liverpool Central needs 3 (but try running it with minimum staff!)
James Street needs 3, possibly 4 with Water St open
Lime St LL needs 2
Hamilton Sq needs 3

That is 17 staff per shift. 3 shifts.


I suspect Merseyrail will try and get managers to cover the posts, but assuming normal shift patterns you'd need upwards of 50 for just one day, and I can't see it personally, so some of the Underground stations will probably close. Most, or all, of the outer stations will be shut.

Now, if the strike was to hit Christmas Saturday's, New Year, Aintree/Chester races etc I'd say that would be highly disruptive and make travelling on strike days very very difficult.

The staff involved are:

Clerical/Support (admin) staff from Head Office (Rail House)
Station Supervisors
Station Assistants
Station Retailers
Various grades of cleaners
Ticket Inspectors (RPIs)

I think the sticking point with this one is the SMART Pension, and the fact it's a 2-year deal with the second year being RPI+0 when analysts predict it could be negative, with no minimum payment to protect the lower paid workers..

Please don't turn this into a pay rise/t+c's debate!!!

Being balloted for action short of a strike, (probably means an o/t ban), or full strike.

 

[mickey]

Thank you FC, for a surprisingly matter-of-fact response.

I don't want to get into a debate either, so will simply add that if I'm honest I don't really see much disruption to journeys. It wouldn't be hard to keep services running, even if they only stop at James St (I'm sure they could get 3 managers there), so the only 'problem' will be people effectively travelling free on strike days. Fun.

 

[YesToHS2]

Seems I was wrong about Mersey Rail being desperate for stock. They have found some spare to operate 4 tph to Chester from the 13th of December. Wonder where they found the capacity from?

 

[ukrob]

Seems I was wrong about Mersey Rail being desperate for stock. They have found some spare to operate 4 tph to Chester from the 13th of December. Wonder where they found the capacity from?

They have a fleet of 59 (58 at the moment?), I think only 48 are needed for the peak time service.

Merseyrail are not desperate for stock, and never have been.

The 'extra capacity' comes in the form of the peak time units on the Chester line which sit idle all day!

 

[Bevan Price]

Two London Overground units came as far as Warrington in November but were turned away, so the need for units is not as dire as is made out.

But wasn't that due, at least in part, to the inability (or unwillingness) of anyone to finance their overhaul to Merseyrail condition, rather than saying more trains are not needed ?

Bevan

 

[YesToHS2]

I just always got the impressing from Local news papers that Mersey Rail was always struggling. I can only go off what I read. Perhaps it was an excuses Mersey Rail bosses used when people complained about over crowding.

 

[ukrob]

But wasn't that due, at least in part, to the inability (or unwillingness) of anyone to finance their overhaul to Merseyrail condition, rather than saying more trains are not needed ?

Bevan

That maybe so, but it doesn't change the fact that they weren't needed as the new Chester services prove.

 

[merlodlliw]

Had this e mail today, f

Merseyrail’s Chester service to increase to four trains an hour all day

Nov 26 2010 by Alan Weston, Liverpool Daily Post

MERSEYRAIL is to double its train service to Chester.

At present, trains between the two cities run every 30 minutes off-peak.

From December 13, the frequency will be increased to four trains an hour on Monday to Saturday up to 6.30pm.

It means that 14 trains an hour will be circulating around the Wirral loop line during the day, or one every 4.5 minutes, comparable to some of the busiest London Underground stations.

The added frequency means that the same number of trains will serve Chester during daytime off-peak hours as at peak times.

The new service is aimed principally at shoppers and visitors to Chester Zoo and other attractions, as well as those travelling to Liverpool city centre.

Rita Waters, chief executive of the Chester Renaissance regeneration programme, said: “We are absolutely delighted with the increase in the number of direct Merseyrail trains into Chester as from December 13.

“It demonstrates the confidence that Merseyrail has about what Chester has to offer our visitors, residents and businesses alike.”

Merseyrail spokesman Rudi Boersma said: “It’s been a long held ambition to increase the frequency to provide an even better service for passengers on the route to and from Chester.”

.................................................................................................
comment from sender,

"One hopes the loop is up to it - at least the 15 mins arrival frequency improves connections with ATW - assuming they don't move their train times again, a point missed by Rita who fails to see Chester as a major hub to other places.."

 

[mickey]

I think only 48 are needed for the peak time service.

It's 50 isn't it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I just always got the impressing from Local news papers that Mersey Rail was always struggling. I can only go off what I read. Perhaps it was an excuses Mersey Rail bosses used when people complained about over crowding.

Overcrowding is a different issue - that's to do with the amount of time/effort it takes to (de)couple units, and the extra costs of hauling them around empty - it's only ever been a small number of services that are overcrowded but if you strengthen them you've got to carry that same unit round until you can get it off again.