Merseyside senior rail/bus also disabled

[Red Rover]

Hi there, for ticketing purposes are these treated as day/tickets rovers or season tickets? The reason I ask is I can not find anything conclusive concerning this, if it’s classed as an off peak day ticket then it would be book to out boundary from station closest to the boundary that the train stops at, for season ticket it would be from closest station to boundary irrespective to whether it stops there or not, my guess is a day ticket as there are restrictions on time usage (disabled exempt) but I can’t find anything concrete either way and know inspectors vary their opinion on this, is there anything that states it’s one or the other?

Many thanks.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The train does not need to stop, only pass through the split point.

For example a non stop train (if any existed) from Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester, you'd buy a ticket from Newton-le-Willows (or Hough Green on the other route) to Manchester Stns. Peak/Off Peak depending on the particular train.

The only grey area may be Liverpool Lime Street to somewhere like Runcorn . You'd buy a ticket from Liverpool South Parkway to Runcorn, as your free pass covers you before then. However, Avanti (but not LNWR) may not like that combination, particularly as the local Merseytravel PTE hasn't got any agreement with Avanti for acceptance of such a pass, but technically it is valid unless the restriction is explicit in any documentation you have.

 

[Red Rover]

Is there anywhere where that states this for said passes? If it’s classed as season ticket why does it have time restrictions? It’s very confusing.

Would Avanti allow a LPY/CRE day return?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Is there anywhere where that states this for said passes? If it’s classed as season ticket why does it have time restrictions? It’s very confusing.

Would Avanti allow a LPY/CRE day return?

Some season tickets have time restrictions. However, season ticket is irrelevant to your circumstances. You have a concessionary pass.

Anyway. It is condition 14.3

14.3 Unless Condition 14.1 applies, if you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger, or rover, in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to Call at that station for your combination to be valid.

Is there anywhere where that states this for said passes? If it’s classed as season ticket why does it have time restrictions? It’s very confusing.

Would Avanti allow a LPY/CRE day return?

I don't think Avanti will like that at all, (it would be valid technically). I'd stick to LNWR for a smoother experience, at least until Avanti are calling regularly at Liverpool South Parkway.

 

[LowLevel]

It's a regular combination on both routes between Liverpool and Manchester though the savings are rather less if splitting at Hough Green rather than splitting at Newton-le-Willows.

Inspectors would be conversant, it is rare to see a train without such a combination between the Merseyrail pass and the GMPTE one that can be used at the other end of the route.

 

[Red Rover]

Some season tickets have time restrictions. However, season ticket is irrelevant to your circumstances. You have a concessionary pass.

Anyway. It is condition 14.3




I don't think Avanti will like that at all, (it would be valid technically). I'd stick to LNWR for a smoother experience, at least until Avanti are calling regularly at Liverpool South Parkway.

But that is my point, why is ok on the other routes and with other toc’s?

It's a regular combination on both routes between Liverpool and Manchester though the savings are rather less if splitting at Hough Green rather than splitting at Newton-le-Willows.

Inspectors would be conversant, it is rare to see a train without such a combination between the Merseyrail pass and the GMPTE one that can be used at the other end of the route.

So Garswood over St Helens Central even though the service doesn’t stop there?

 

[LowLevel]

But that is my point, why is ok on the other routes and with other toc’s?


So Garswood over St Helens Central even though the service doesn’t stop there?

Yes, Garswood is the splitting location.

 

[Red Rover]

Yes, Garswood is the splitting location.

Wow, I never knew that, always thought it was classed a day ticket due to the time restriction, makes you think why they don’t have from boundary as opposed to station?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The issue with Avanti is that they don't stop ANYWHERE within the pass validity area, therefore quite sensibly really were not included in any agreement with the organisation that issues your pass, Merseytravel. All other operators have at least one stop within the pass validity area.

But because the way the National Rail Conditions of Travel are composed, in your favour, Avanti are forced to accept it in combination, even though it was not intended to have such validity. The issue falls away whenever Avanti start calling at Liverpool South Parkway and presumably enter into an agreement with Merseytravel, unless the stops are pick up/set down only.

That is, unless, in the paperwork and conditions your concessionary pass was issued, it explicitly bans you from using Avanti or specifies validity only on listed operators. You'd have to check.

 

[Haywain]

But because the way the National Rail Conditions of Travel are composed, in your favour, Avanti are forced to accept it in combination, even though it was not intended to have such validity. The issue falls away whenever Avanti start calling at Liverpool South Parkway and presumably enter into an agreement with Merseytravel, unless the stops are pick up/set down only.

More to the point, the T&Cs of the pass do not explicitly exclude Avanti from being an operator where the pass is accepted.

 

[Red Rover]

So to clarify this is only for passes not cheap day returns, the rules apply of the service must stop at stations of origin and destination?

 

[cool110]

So to clarify this is only for passes not cheap day returns, the rules apply of the service must stop at stations of origin and destination?

Non-stop splits apply to season OR zonal tickets. So this does also apply to a Saveaway, but not if you only have day returns in which case you must stop at the split point.

 

[Red Rover]

So saveaways can be used on non stops to out boundary but not day returns? This must play absolute havoc with attributing the money, toc’s must lose out due to not being able to correctly assign fare flow. I could technically buy an area c saveaway and ask for an LPY/CRE cdr? Baffling.

 

[Watershed]

So saveaways can be used on non stops to out boundary but not day returns? This must play absolute havoc with attributing the money, toc’s must lose out due to not being able to correctly assign fare flow. I could technically buy an area c saveaway and ask for an LPY/CRE cdr? Baffling.

That's correct, though in most cases there would only be a minimal saving by doing so. I don't think non-stop splits are usually considered when calculating revenue allocation; they are pretty niche in the grand scheme of things.

The only kind of non-stop split where revenue allocation is likely to be more accurate is with Boundary Zone tickets to/from the London area - here I would presume that allocations are based on travel to/from London Terminals?

 

[Red Rover]

It just seems crazy you couldn’t for instance co join two high fare CD-R on possibly the same fare flow and operator and yet someone on a saveaway could use that and a hough green to man CD-R on a East Midlands when the fare flow is Northern on that ticket, I wonder if tickets produced under these circumstances could show they’re being used for splits to allocate the revenue share fairer?

 

[Mocko1962]

Does anyone know where you stand using the over 60s merseytravel pass where you start your ‘’journey’’which requires 2 trains both within the Merseyrail area before 06.30 .. but the 2nd part of the destination journey is after 06.30 … I did this recently and where entering station No .2 for 2nd part of the journey the auto barrier let me pass before 0630 but the 2nd train left at 6.43 .. A ticket inspector on the train at Hooton checking tickets used my pass which I presented on his machine and it was ok … is this situation fine for any future similar scenario journeys

Apologies this may have been better posted in a Merseytravel older persons pass .. feed or post …

 

[gray1404]

Does anyone know where you stand using the over 60s merseytravel pass where you start your ‘’journey’’which requires 2 trains both within the Merseyrail area before 06.30 .. but the 2nd part of the destination journey is after 06.30 … I did this recently and where entering station No .2 for 2nd part of the journey the auto barrier let me pass before 0630 but the 2nd train left at 6.43 .. A ticket inspector on the train at Hooton checking tickets used my pass which I presented on his machine and it was ok … is this situation fine for any future similar scenario journeys

Apologies this may have been better posted in a Merseytravel older persons pass .. feed or post …

Look at the back of the pass. What is the wording on there?

 

[Vespa]

As I originally understood it, disabled Merseyside ENCTS has no time restrictions, but over 60 is after 09:30.

So you're now saying that's not the case, over 60s is actually anytime ?

 

[scrapy]

Over 60s passes are valid anytime except for journeys starting between 06.31 and 09.29 Monday to Friday (valid anytime) bank holidays. Merseytravel define a journey starting as 'everytime you board a bus or pass through a rail or ferry terminal'. Which is quite clear for what a bus journey is but not for a rail journey. Is a station a terminal is no trains terminate there??

 

[JBuchananGB]

I might interpret "rail terminal" on MerseyRail as a station with barriers, which is very few of them. Acquaintances of mine who are holders of MerseyTravel over-60 passes tell me that boarding the 09.27 departure from Southport is commonly permitted with these passes. Sadly as I live 3 minutes walk outside the MerseyTravel boundary, I have not had the opportunity to test this theory, and anyway, by the time it reaches Birkdale it is 09.31, so I can use an off-peak ticket.

 

[8A Rail]

I have always interpreted the Merseyside senior travel pass as simply you are allowed to board any train (Avanti excepted) within the Merseytravel boundary after 09:30hrs, this includes some stations which are just outside Merseyside (eg Hough Green, Rainford etc). However, if travelling before then you need to purchase a valid ticket which also applies if travelling from within the Merseytravel boundary to and from another area during the day. As an example if you are travelling to / from Warrington West to Halewood / Hunts Cross, you need to purchase a ticket to cover Hough Green to Warrington West and return.

 

[TheSel]

Over 60s passes are valid anytime except for journeys starting between 06.31 and 09.29 Monday to Friday (valid anytime) bank holidays. Merseytravel define a journey starting as 'everytime you board a bus or pass through a rail or ferry terminal'. Which is quite clear for what a bus journey is but not for a rail journey. Is a station a terminal is no trains terminate there??

I might interpret "rail terminal" on MerseyRail as a station with barriers, which is very few of them. Acquaintances of mine who are holders of MerseyTravel over-60 passes tell me that boarding the 09.27 departure from Southport is commonly permitted with these passes. Sadly as I live 3 minutes walk outside the MerseyTravel boundary, I have not had the opportunity to test this theory, and anyway, by the time it reaches Birkdale it is 09.31, so I can use an off-peak ticket.

I would agree the wording is sub-optimal, but essentially, whether there is a physical barrier or not, this refers to joining / leaving railway premises. See below for an example of a permitted / potentially non-permitted "starting pre-0930 Monday - Friday" journey, and a comparison with the 0927 ex Southport departure.

I have always interpreted the Merseyside senior travel pass as simply you are allowed to board any train (Avanti excepted) within the Merseytravel boundary after 09:30hrs, this includes some stations which are just outside Merseyside (eg Hough Green, Rainford etc). However, if travelling before then you need to purchase a valid ticket which also applies if travelling from within the Merseytravel boundary to and from another area during the day. As an example if you are travelling to / from Warrington West to Halewood / Hunts Cross, you need to purchase a ticket to cover Hough Green to Warrington West and return.

That's your interpretation, fair enough, but I don't think it's entirely accurate in terms of the pre 0630 situation.

Take this as an example.

Southport - Chester; changing at Liverpool Central.

It is perfectly valid with an all zones SaveAway or a Merseyside 60+ concessionary pass to board the 0622 Southport - Hunts Cross service, alight at Liverpool Central (0712), and transfer to the Wirral Line platform for the 0715 service to Chester. However, if challenged, it is probably sensible to take with you a printed itinerary that shows your journey commenced prior to 0630, because it would NOT BE VALID to board the same 0622 ex Southport service at, say, Ainsdale at 0631, or any later station. As Ainsdale is unbarriered, it is highly unlikely that one would be challenged at that point, but that doesn't alter the fact that such a traveller's SaveAway or a Merseyside 60+ concessionary pass is NOT valid for this journey, whereas the identical ticket for their co-traveller who boarded at Southport (or Birkdale, or Hillside) IS valid.

Regardless of whether the barrier staff at Southport are in the habit of permitting all zones SaveAway or a Merseyside 60+ concessionary passholders to board the 0927 departure (technically this is NOT permitted) then as @JBuchananGB states, it is fine to board this service at Birkdale (0931) or any later station. (As an aside, this problem "goes away" during the imminent 'Autumn Timetable' starting next Monday, when the erstwhile 0927 ex Southport is retimed to 0924, and thus leaves Birkdale at 0928 - so still too early for passholders!)

An interesting issue would arise if a traveller's intention was to travel from Southport to (say) St Helens Central. As discussed above, if he/she boards the 0622 departure at Southport, this journey is fine. Suppose this traveller goes to Liverpool Central (0712), leaves the station, and walks to Lime Street to catch the 0739 (Blackpool North) service. Is this a new journey? The traveller has left the railway premises, so it could be argued "Yes". But if he/she alighted from the 0622 Southport - Hunts Cross at Moorfields (0710), and transferred to the Wirral Line for, say, the 0716 ex New Brighton to make the two minute trip to Lime Street, and then went up in the lift to the main concourse at Lime Street, it could be argued "No - it's a continuation of the same single journey".

Potentially a nightmare for enforcement!

 

[8A Rail]

That's your interpretation, fair enough, but I don't think it's entirely accurate in terms of the pre 0630 situation.

Take this as an example.

Southport - Chester; changing at Liverpool Central.

It is perfectly valid with an all zones SaveAway or a Merseyside 60+ concessionary pass to board the 0622 Southport - Hunts Cross service, alight at Liverpool Central (0712), and transfer to the Wirral Line platform for the 0715 service to Chester. However, if challenged, it is probably sensible to take with you a printed itinerary that shows your journey commenced prior to 0630, because it would NOT BE VALID to board the same 0622 ex Southport service at, say, Ainsdale at 0631, or any later station. As Ainsdale is unbarriered, it is highly unlikely that one would be challenged at that point, but that doesn't alter the fact that such a traveller's SaveAway or a Merseyside 60+ concessionary pass is NOT valid for this journey, whereas the identical ticket for their co-traveller who boarded at Southport (or Birkdale, or Hillside) IS valid.

Regardless of whether the barrier staff at Southport are in the habit of permitting all zones SaveAway or a Merseyside 60+ concessionary passholders to board the 0927 departure (technically this is NOT permitted) then as @JBuchananGB states, it is fine to board this service at Birkdale (0931) or any later station. (As an aside, this problem "goes away" during the imminent 'Autumn Timetable' starting next Monday, when the erstwhile 0927 ex Southport is retimed to 0924, and thus leaves Birkdale at 0928 - so still too early for passholders!)

An interesting issue would arise if a traveller's intention was to travel from Southport to (say) St Helens Central. As discussed above, if he/she boards the 0622 departure at Southport, this journey is fine. Suppose this traveller goes to Liverpool Central (0712), leaves the station, and walks to Lime Street to catch the 0739 (Blackpool North) service. Is this a new journey? The traveller has left the railway premises, so it could be argued "Yes". But if he/she alighted from the 0622 Southport - Hunts Cross at Moorfields (0710), and transferred to the Wirral Line for, say, the 0716 ex New Brighton to make the two minute trip to Lime Street, and then went up in the lift to the main concourse at Lime Street, it could be argued "No - it's a continuation of the same single journey".

Potentially a nightmare for enforcement!

My examples are with reference to going or from outside the Merseytravel boundary and regardless of time, a ticket is required for train travel outside the boundary regardless of time. Your example is within the Merseytravel area and not the same.

I understand the point about getting the 06:22 train from Southport as it commenced obviously prior to 06:30 but providing an itinerary (and proof you live there) does not prove you got on at Southport in the eyes of the station staff therefore leaving yourself wide open to be stopped and questioned. If you wish to do that, then that is your personal choice. I would also argue that although getting on 06:22 train at Southport but changing trains latter on in that journey, then I suspect you would need a valid ticket for the second part of your journey as you travelling within 06:30 to 09:30 zone (again how do you prove it to station staff and ticket enforcers), I don't see it any other way I'm afraid.

Personally, if I am getting a train that is operating between the hours of 06:30 and 09:30 then I will make sure I have a valid ticket for that journey so I am able go about my business knowing I will not get stopped and also need to provide an explanation to station staff with how, when and why, personally it is just not worth it.

May be best to agree to disagree in this instance and we do what is right in our own minds.

 

[Steelwheels]

I have always interpreted the Merseyside senior travel pass as simply you are allowed to board any train (Avanti excepted) within the Merseytravel boundary after 09:30hrs, this includes some stations which are just outside Merseyside (eg Hough Green, Rainford etc). However, if travelling before then you need to purchase a valid ticket which also applies if travelling from within the Merseytravel boundary to and from another area during the day. As an example if you are travelling to / from Warrington West to Halewood / Hunts Cross, you need to purchase a ticket to cover Hough Green to Warrington West and return.

Rainford Station is actually within the Merseyside boundary, for journeys towards Headbolt Lane.

 

[8A Rail]

Rainford Station is actually within the Merseyside boundary, for journeys towards Headbolt Lane.

Fair point but I have always attached Rainford to Lancashire to be honest. Although Rainford Station is in the area, it does not have Merseytravel markings, strickly 'Northern'. I think this is why some people do not realise it comes under Merseytravel for travelling within the area especially when purchasing 'Saveaway' and such like tickets.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Meols Cop is similarly inside the MerseyTravel area, but fully branded as Northern. I have travelled from Southport to Parbold in the past with pennywise holders of MerseyTravel passes who bought tickets from Meols Cop. But I think some of them paid more than me, as I used my Senior Railcard, whereas some holders of MerseyTravel over-60 passes tend not to see any value in such a thing!