Merstham to Byfleet & New Haw Route confusion

[duncanbourne]

Hi,

My wife has a season ticket to travel from Merstham to Byfleet and New Haw. When She bought it, She was offered three different routes:

The first was 'Via Guildford' that seems pretty straightforward as Merstham to Redhill, Redhill to Guildford, and Guildford to Byfleet & New Haw.

The second was 'Via London'. The third was 'Not London'. Now this confused us, and the ticket office staff, as to what exactly 'London' is defined as.

She wants to travel via Clapham Junction, so is that defined as London or not? Assuming it is, then what other route is 'Not London'? Assuming it isn't, then why will her 'Not London' ticket not open the barriers at East Croydon or Clapham Junction?

Can anyone shed any light on where these routes actually go?

Best Regards

Duncan

 

[philjo]

Not opening the barriers does not mean it is not valid.
My season ticket to Potters Bar has never opened the barriers at Welwyn Garden City ever since they were installed despite reporting this to FCC on numerous occasions, even though it works at other intermediate stations along the route (such as Hatfield & stevenage) & you need to go through 2 sets of barriers at WGC if changing from fast to slow trains southbound (as have to cross the bridge)

Personally I would say "not London" means not going through London terminals or using the underground.
The only alternative route I can think without looking at a map/timetable of is using Croydon tramlink or FCC services from to Wimbledon & changing there, which is further out of London than Clapham junction, but do the trains to Byfleet stop at Wimbledon - I suspect not?

 

[thefab444]

Trains to Byfleet & New Haw stop at Wimbledon, but only in the peak periods and on Sundays do they run to/from Guildford - usually a change at Woking is require.

I believe NOT LONDON effectively means excluding London Terminals, e.g. a Southampton - Brighton NOT LONDON ticket is valid via Clapham Junction.

 

[dan_atki]

I believe NOT LONDON effectively means excluding London Terminals, e.g. a Southampton - Brighton NOT LONDON ticket is valid via Clapham Junction.

Indeed, Not London as a route means 'do not touch a London Terminal*' and, rather bizarrely means that going all the way into zone 2 of the travelcard zones means you are still not in London...

SWT cleared this up themselves in one of their e-motion magazines when someone questioned the validity of a Not London ticket at CLJ.

*London Terminals (I believe absence of 'Waterloo East' is an oversight by ATOC):

City Thameslink
London Blackfriars
London Bridge
London Cannon Street
London Charing Cross
London Euston
London Fenchurch Street
London Kings Cross
London Liverpool Street
London Marylebone
London Paddington
London St Pancras International
London Victoria
London Waterloo
Moorgate Underground
Old Street Underground
Vauxhall

 

[glynn80]

My wife has a season ticket to travel from Merstham to Byfleet and New Haw. When She bought it, She was offered three different routes:

The first was 'Via Guildford' that seems pretty straightforward as Merstham to Redhill, Redhill to Guildford, and Guildford to Byfleet & New Haw.

The second was 'Via London'. The third was 'Not London'. Now this confused us, and the ticket office staff, as to what exactly 'London' is defined as.

She wants to travel via Clapham Junction, so is that defined as London or not? Assuming it is, then what other route is 'Not London'? Assuming it isn't, then why will her 'Not London' ticket not open the barriers at East Croydon or Clapham Junction?

Can anyone shed any light on where these routes actually go?

Yes, this situation is confusing myself as well and I am now going to further complicate matter unfortunately.

Within the FRPP (Online Fares Manual) the following flows are listed:

MERSTHAM - BYFLEET & NEW H
(Derived from REDHILL - WOKING )

rte: NOT LONDON
Fare set by: SWT
7DS 59.90
7DF 101.80

rte: + Any Permitted
Fare set by: SWT
No Season Tickets listed

rte: GOMSHALL
Fare set by: GWR
7DS 53.20
7DF 79.80

rte: CLAPHAM JUNCTION
Fare set by: SWT
7DS 71.50
7DF 121.60

Key
7DS= Standard Seven Day Season
7DF= First Seven Day Season
SWT= South West Trains
GWR= First Great Western

Now the above brings in a new flow, the Route Clapham Junction flow. This flow is priced above the Not London flow and considering both the Not London and Clapham Junction flows are set by SWT it implies the Not London fare is invalid via Clapham Junction (i.e. it is not a separate TOC trying to undercut SWT that creates the anomaly).

The ultimate arbiter of permitted routes is the National Routeing Guide but this is not a simple route to look up (in fact its probably one of the most complicated I've encountered) with the origin station having two associated routeing points and the destination having four associated routeing points. Not only are there six potential routeing points but four separate flows to compare fares for depending on which ticket's validity you are analysing.

Merstham has Croydon and Redhill associated routeing points.

Redhill is an appropriate routeing points for all flows because Merstham fares are dervied from Redhill anyway.

Croydon is slightly more tricky because the same flows do not apply from Croydon, the only flows from Croydon are "rte NOT LONDON" (lower priced), "rte LONDON NOT UND" (nothing to compare) and "rte + Any Permitted" (lower priced). I think because of this, it best to use the Croydon Routeing Point for the rte NOT LONDON flow only (it will be the only flow able to use both Redhill and Croydon). Bear in mind the Any Permitted flow can be ignored as it has no season tickets listed for that routeing.

Byfleet and New Haw has Ascot (Berks), Staines, Surbiton and Woking associated routeing points.

Woking is an appropriate routeing point as it has identical fares from Merstham as those to Byfleet.

Surbiton has lower priced "rte NOT LONDON" and rte Any Permitted flows. Similar to the Croydon routeing point, I beleive only the NOT LONDON flow should be able to use Surbiton as a routeing point.

Staines has higher priced "rte NOT LONDON" and rte Any Permitted flows. Staines can therefore be eliminated completely.

Ascot (Berks) again has higher priced "rte NOT LONDON" and rte Any Permitted flows. Ascot (Berks) can also therefore be eliminated completely.


So the permitted routes using the appropriate maps combinations are as follows:

rte: NOT LONDON
Redhill Group to Woking: LONDON, CS+PD, LB+WX, SC+WX
Redhill Group to Surbiton: LONDON, CS+PD, SC+WX
Croydon Group to Woking: LONDON, SC+WX
Croydon Group to Surbiton: LONDON, SC+WX

LONDON: Eliminated
CS+PD: Redhill to Dorking to Guildford to Woking
CS+PD: Redhill to Dorking to Guildford to Surbiton (via Oxshott) to Woking
CS+PD: Redhill to Croydon to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
CS+PD: Redhill to Croydon to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Guildford (via Oxshott) to Woking
LB+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
LB+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Crystal Palace to Tulse Hill to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
LB+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Crystal Palace to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
SC+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Sutton to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
SC+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Sutton to Wimbledon to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
SC+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Sutton to Mitcham Junction to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
SC+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Sutton to Epsom to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
SC+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Sutton to Epsom to Wimbledon to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
SC+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
SC+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Crystal Palace to Tulse Hill to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
SC+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Crystal Palace to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking


rte: Any Permitted
No map combinations as Any Permitted flow is an irrelevance due to no season tickets being listed under the Any Permitted route.

rte: GOMSHALL
Redhill Group to Woking: LONDON, CS+PD, LB+WX, SC+WX

CS+PD: Redhill to Dorking to Guildford to Woking
CS+PD: Redhill to Dorking to Guildford to Surbiton (via Oxshott) to Woking

rte: CLAPHAM JUNCTION
Redhill Group to Woking: LONDON, CS+PD, LB+WX, SC+WX

CS+PD: Redhill to Croydon to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
CS+PD: Redhill to Croydon to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Guildford (via Oxshott) to Woking
LB+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
LB+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Crystal Palace to Tulse Hill to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
LB+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Crystal Palace to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
SC+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Sutton to Wimbledon to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
SC+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Sutton to Mitcham Junction to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
SC+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Sutton to Epsom to Wimbledon to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
SC+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
SC+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Crystal Palace to Tulse Hill to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking
SC+WX: Redhill to Croydon to Crystal Palace to Streatham to Clapham Junction to Wimbledon to Surbiton to Woking


So to answer the OPs original question, yes you can use a rte NOT LONDON ticket via Clapham Junction. Do not be tempted by the name of the rte CLAPHAM JUNCTION fare. This ticket is a rip-off because it has less validity for a higher price, avoid at all costs.


P.S. As you can see above the Redhill Group to Woking encompasses all the map combinations between the other routeing points anyway so a lot of the fares check above was elementary. However it did raise an interesting question, if I have a route specific ticket do I have to compare fares that have the same route specific nature or can I compare any two fares that have the same route?

 

[A60K]

Yes, this situation is confusing myself as well and I am now going to further complicate matter unfortunately.

Within the FRPP (Online Fares Manual) the following flows are listed:




Key
7DS= Standard Seven Day Season
7DF= First Seven Day Season
SWT= South West Trains
GWR= First Great Western

Now the above brings in a new flow, the Route Clapham Junction flow. This flow is priced above the Not London flow and considering both the Not London and Clapham Junction flows are set by SWT it implies the Not London fare is invalid via Clapham Junction (i.e. it is not a separate TOC trying to undercut SWT that creates the anomaly).

The ultimate arbiter of permitted routes is the National Routeing Guide but this is not a simple route to look up (in fact its probably one of the most complicated I've encountered) with the origin station having two associated routeing points and the destination having four associated routeing points. Not only are there six potential routeing points but four separate flows to compare fares for depending on which ticket's validity you are analysing.

You deserve an OBE for all that

 

[duncanbourne]

Yes, this situation is confusing myself as well and I am now going to further complicate matter unfortunately. snip

Wow. I knew it was too complicated for me (or the station staff at Merstham) to work out, but I never realised it was THAT complicated!

Many, many thanks for your help with this!

Duncan

 

[LondonLarry]

Hi,

My wife has a season ticket to travel from Merstham to Byfleet and New Haw. When She bought it, She was offered three different routes:

She wants to travel via Clapham Junction, so is that defined as London or not? Assuming it is, then what other route is 'Not London'? Assuming it isn't, then why will her 'Not London' ticket not open the barriers at East Croydon or Clapham Junction?

If her season ticket is not working East Croydon's or Clapham's gates, the magnetic strip on the back of the ticket may have become de-magnetised. This does happen occasionally and can be caused by static in the ticket wallets they normally hand out at ticket offices. Othe culprits may include mobile phones, magnetic clasps etc... Although some people seem to have magnetic strip failures more than others!

There's no reason why it shouldn't work at East Croydon or Clapham's gates as these are both valid entry/exit points for her season ticket.

 

[dan_atki]

There's no reason why it shouldn't work at East Croydon or Clapham's gates as these are both valid entry/exit points for her season ticket.

The normal culprit is the barriers not being set-up to allow break of journey (I know for a fact East Croydon's aren't, unless this has recently changed).

 

[LondonLarry]

The normal culprit is the barriers not being set-up to allow break of journey (I know for a fact East Croydon's aren't, unless this has recently changed).

I know for a fact that Clapham's are!

 

[will1337]

*London Terminals (I believe absence of 'Waterloo East' is an oversight by ATOC):

I think it might not be included as to change there you'd either tube it there to Southwark or cross from Waterloo which is a London Terminal and you have to pass through London Bridge to get there there direct which is in the group.

 

[dan_atki]

I think it might not be included as to change there you'd either tube it there to Southwark or cross from Waterloo which is a London Terminal and you have to pass through London Bridge to get there there direct which is in the group.

But if this is the case then I am not allowed to end my journey there on a London Terminals ticket (by a permitted route, of course!) as it is not a London terminal. However, if I walk through the tunnel to Waterloo then I am fine. :?

I think it's more the case it is deemed as an extension to Waterloo, and thus falls under the same remit as there. Certainly if Waterloo, London Bridge, and Charing Cross are terminals then Waterloo East should be as well. The fact that in ticketing it is 'London Waterloo East' substantiates this somewhat.

 

[yorkie]

But does the existence of a higher priced Clapham Jn flow, mean that routes through Clapham Jn are excluded from the list of valid Not London flows?

Also as the Clapham Jn fare is higher than Not London does it also mean that it is valid for routes that don't pass through Clapham but avoid London?

What a mess!

 

[glynn80]

But does the existence of a higher priced Clapham Jn flow, mean that routes through Clapham Jn are excluded from the list of valid Not London flows?

That issue does not seem to be addressed within the NRG.

The situation is explained when a passenger holds an Any Permitted ticket and a higher priced route exists:

You may only use all the permitted routes if the fare is unrouted or the route is described as "any permitted". An "any permitted" ticket cannot be used for travel on a route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a higher priced route specific fare exists. It can be used on any route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists.

Emphasis added personally

So if you have an Any Permitted ticket, you can take all routes within the guide regardless of whether a higher priced route specific fare exists. If a route is not listed in the guide but there are route specific tickets allowing travel via said route, you may only use those routes with an Any Permitted ticket if the route specific fare is lower than that of the Any Permitted fare.

Whether we can take the above to applying to Route Specific tickets is a separate unanswered question (although I cannot see any reason why it should not be the case).