Methods of door operation and despatch and staffing onboard trains.

[12LDA28C]

That list is rather out of date as Chiltern haven't operated Class 172s for several years. Also, 'full DOO' does not necessarily mean that the driver dispatches themselves - this could be done by means of bat and flag, or by CD and RA.

 

[dk1]

Not a very scientific comparison though because at least two variables have changed (the Method of Work and the rolling stock).

Over here we still have conventional guard operation of doors, but new trains have faster acceleration and shorter dwell times.

We had conventional guards opening doors and still have them to close if needed. The trains, particularly the 3-car 755s aren’t that much quicker on local routes. Dwell times have improved no end on busy services as the guard was often delayed releasing doors and all the paraphernalia that goes with that these days.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2024 ==

I recently travelled a lot around the North West with Northern and it seems so cumbersome now in comparison.

 

[Krokodil]

The trains, particularly the 3-car 755s aren’t that much quicker on local routes.

Didn't they replace 153s among other units?

Dwell times have improved no end on busy services as the guard was often delayed releasing doors and all the paraphernalia that goes with that these days.

A good guard can manage their time well.

I recently travelled a lot around the North West with Northern and it seems so cumbersome now in comparison.

Northern's dispatch rules are absurdly tight. Other operators added intermediate door controls to their 150s and swapped the door key switches on their Pacers from the cab to the vestibules. Northern insist on only working from the rear.

 

[357]

Not when you get used to it and especially when you consider if the guard is inside the train, step out & check, back on to release.

+1 to this from my own experiences.

 

[Amnesiac]

On the Cross City line in Birmingham there are also green lines painted on the platform that means the guard can open the train doors without having to do a check also if the middle cab on 6 car sets or rear cab on single units was aligned appropriately. If operating from the controls in the pantograph car then the local door would still be opened first. Or at least this was permissible when I worked in that area in the late 2000s.

Not entirely true anymore, on a single 323 set we still have to step down first and check the train is fully accommodated.

 

[357]

Northern insist on only working from the rear.

I use Northern to commute daily and often see a guard in middle cabs or intermediate doors?

 

[MCR247]

I use Northern to commute daily and often see a guard in middle cabs or intermediate doors?

I think it depends on the stock, with the poster referring to 150s

 

[dk1]

+1 to this from my own experiences.

Crazy isn’t it. Done 39yrs on the railway now nearly all of it on the operating side and never known performance like this.

 

[Krokodil]

I use Northern to commute daily and often see a guard in middle cabs or intermediate doors?

Intermediate doors would presumably be on CAF units or 319/769s. Not a lot of choice on those units. The intermediate control panels on the ex-FGW 150s got plated over when Northern got them.

When I worked 150s I could start selling a ticket as the front of the train entered a (six car) platform and be keyed in at an intermediate panel before it had stopped.

 

[DMckduck]

slight correction too that I believe (happy to be proven wrong) that Southern 171s is driver release guard close.

I think as thing move forward there will be a push for “Driver controlled operation” where there is a SC guard on every train that can do the doors if required, but normally the driver will have full control of the doors. I can’t see a push for future expansion of pure DOO, and I’m not convinced on the OBS position (however GTR / DfT have proven a lot of people wrong, many assumed that the grade would be binned off ASAP. 8 years later and they’re still actively recruiting the role).

I personally believe that driver release, guard close is better, however only if the ASDO system can detect and prevent a station stop short, however as mentioned above, many ASDO systems just release x number of coaches regardless of where the train stops.

Final point from me, the reduction in PTI incidents after LO moved to DOO. Surely that’s because there are no more ready to start against the red? I would very much imagine there’s been an increase in other incidents such as trap and drags, and other station irregularities. It would be interesting to know more granular details as to what has increased / decreased as a result of moving to full DOO.

Driver Open, guard close I would agree is the better method of operation. The slippery slope with moving to a safety critical guard with no operation at all, is eventually as you bring in more talent the ones off the street may think what is the guard actually even doing.

So when companies start offering money for no real operational risk increase, it's a lot easier to just say yes

 

[foggy69]

The Redhill to Tonbridge line is only driver open and guard close when the unit is operated by a South Eastern crew. If it is worked by a Southern crew, it is driver open and close, with an OBS on board.

 

[Carlisle]

Driver Open, guard close I would agree is the better method of operation.

That’s essentially no change indefinitely given guards didn’t traditionally have responsibility for opening doors

 

[hux385]

What method of despatch does Lumo use? Are the 'ambassadors' involved in any way?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Without ending up on the naughty step all I can say from 30+ years of experience is that IMO guard open guard close is by far the safest method of door operation.

 

[12LDA28C]

Without ending up on the naughty step all I can say from 30+ years of experience is that IMO guard open guard close is by far the safest method of door operation.

Do you have any evidence to confirm this?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Do you have any evidence to confirm this?

Experience.

 

[12LDA28C]

Experience.

Fair enough. Not really quantifiable though. Someone who has driven trains DOO for 30 years without incident might well say that DOO is the safest method of operation, as an example.

 

[DMckduck]

That’s essentially no change indefinitely given guards didn’t traditionally have responsibility for opening doors

Oh no I just meant in general, the move across the railway to take operational responsibility away, that safety critical guard soon becomes very dispensable

 

[Facing Back]

Without ending up on the naughty step all I can say from 30+ years of experience is that IMO guard open guard close is by far the safest method of door operation.

I would be interested in seeing numbers ragarding this

 

[stadler]

Intermediate doors would presumably be on CAF units or 319/769s. Not a lot of choice on those units. The intermediate control panels on the ex-FGW 150s got plated over when Northern got them.

When I worked 150s I could start selling a ticket as the front of the train entered a (six car) platform and be keyed in at an intermediate panel before it had stopped.

Why did Northern plate over the saloon panels? GWR and TFW seem to have no issue with them. It seems to me like a good idea to have these as it means that the Guard does not have to return to the rear cab at every stop. Is there a particular reason why Northern did not want them to be used?

Another thing i do not understand is why some TOCs like LNER and Northern and TPE have policies that if a train is formed of two units without gangways then the Guard must remain in the rear unit for the entire journey.

Meanwhile on Southern they have been operating 171+171 and 171+171+171 formation for over fifteen years and the Guard is allowed to be in whatever set they choose. Sometimes they will be in the front unit. Sometimes they will be in the middle unit. Sometimes they will be in the rear unit. So if it works fine for them then why not for some other TOCs.

 

[DMckduck]

Another thing i do not understand is why some TOCs like LNER and Northern and TPE have policies that if a train is formed of two units without gangways then the Guard must remain in the rear unit for the entire journey.

Probably down to the fact that most of the lines they operate on are 125mph 4 track and it's easier to keep a blanket policy on it, also not every passcom/egress will be kicked out.

So if you've got all operational members of staff in one unit, you immediately need a line block and ISO

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Why did Northern plate over the saloon panels? GWR and TFW seem to have no issue with them. It seems to me like a good idea to have these as it means that the Guard does not have to return to the rear cab at every stop. Is there a particular reason why Northern did not want them to be used?

At least operation is usually quicker with the manual slam local doors of a /1 rather than the guard having to wait for a door to slide open (like in the /2s, 156s and 158s, which are noticeably slower).

 

[stadler]

What method of despatch does Lumo use? Are the 'ambassadors' involved in any way?

Lumo is DOO and the ambassadors have no involvement in despatch or operating doors. So the Driver opens and closes doors and despatches themselves at all stations. The ambassadors are not safety critical or guaranteed and the train can run without them if necessary. They are basically just a customer service role and are there to check and sell tickets and provide the catering.

 

[LowLevel]

At least operation is usually quicker with the manual slam local doors of a /1 rather than the guard having to wait for a door to slide open.

150s used to be lightning fast on the Snow Hill lines and so on. The guards never bothered waiting for the door to be shut before buzzing, they just hopped in and buzz buzz, and quite often would watch the train out through the open door. Same with the PEP 31x/50x stock where the driving cab door could be open for departure.

Got squashed mid 2000s onwards I think because of the fear of the guard falling out/passengers trying to jump into departing trains.

To be fair the guard being left behind wasn't particularly unusual either.

 

[hux385]

Lumo is DOO and the ambassadors have no involvement in despatch or operating doors. So the Driver opens and closes doors and despatches themselves at all stations. The ambassadors are not safety critical or guaranteed and the train can run without them if necessary. They are basically just a customer service role and are there to check and sell tickets and provide the catering.

That's really interesting. So when the ambassadors blow the whistle, it's more of a token gesture/warning for people to stand clear rather than part of some despatch process.

I assume it is also down to each TOC to determine whether they require station staff to despatch a train or whether the guard/driver can self-despatch?

 

[TonyColeman2]

On the Cross City line in Birmingham there are also green lines painted on the platform that means the guard can open the train doors without having to do a check also if the middle cab on 6 car sets or rear cab on single units was aligned appropriately. If operating from the controls in the pantograph car then the local door would still be opened first. Or at least this was permissible when I worked in that area in the late 2000s.

Which the green line working will be binned off once the 323’s have all gone !!

 

[bunnahabhain]

From what i understand i believe on the 222s the Driver has to select the amount of coaches if necessary and then activate the Guards panel first. So it is still Guard Open Guard Close and the Guard has full control of the doors. But at every station the Driver has to first press buttons in the cab to activate the Guards panel before the Guard can then release the doors. It does seem an odd method and they are the only class to use it. So i guess this is yet a twelth method that the 222s use.

It is a very different method to most others, in effect it is driver release, but with the additional step of the Guard confirming it by releasing the doors at any panel after the driver has released them to the guard. It was down to an MML industrial dispute as the 220/221 method of a ten bells dispatch and driver release was deemed not acceptable.

 

[Krokodil]

At least operation is usually quicker with the manual slam local doors of a /1 rather than the guard having to wait for a door to slide open (like in the /2s, 156s and 158s, which are noticeably slower).

True, I've fond memories of working slam door LHCS where (once you'd got the passengers into the habit of closing doors behind them) you could have some very swift dispatch work. No waiting for hustle alarms; just lock the CDL, green flag, and board.

 

[foggy69]

Without ending up on the naughty step all I can say from 30+ years of experience is that IMO guard open guard close is by far the safest method of door operation.

Plus the fact that 2 people are involved, so if one makes a mistake the other can mitigate it.
If a driver stops short or tries to open doors on the wrong side, these are incidents that are very much less likely with a guard.
The chances of starting against a red are much reduced as there are 2 people looking at the signal.

 

[Falcon1200]

Without ending up on the naughty step all I can say from 30+ years of experience is that IMO guard open guard close is by far the safest method of door operation.

Whereas all I can say from 30+ years of experience, as both railway staff and passenger, is that there is no difference in safety; If there was, one would surely expect the RMT, and ASLEF, to be highlighting every DOO safety incident and using these to argue, not just for no extension of DOO but for its complete abolition? On the two routes I use most frequently, one DOO and one not, it is noticeable how much more time the second person (who should be rostered on every train) on the DOO line has to deal with passengers.