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Metrocar updates and withdrawals - Tyne & Wear Metro

Maninblack

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Joined
24 Sep 2011
Messages
58
I suspect that we will witness a total withdrawal of the Tyne and Wear Metro system for a short preiod of time.
I don't even like pressing the buttons to open the doors in case I break them! The trains are so temprimental!!
The system is failing rapidly!
I think the engineers and mechanics are miracle workers to keep such old rolling stock working!
 
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Paul_10

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24 Feb 2011
Messages
744
I suspect that we will witness a total withdrawal of the Tyne and Wear Metro system for a short preiod of time.
I don't even like pressing the buttons to open the doors in case I break them! The trains are so temprimental!!
The system is failing rapidly!
I think the engineers and mechanics are miracle workers to keep such old rolling stock working!

That is my fear for the upcoming winter if we get anything seriously cold which would be embarrassing for the system.

Any updates to the fleet? Has any long term out of use units been in service and has any further been withdrawn? I think a poster has said he has not seen 4059 and 4063 in service for a while.
 

Swanny200

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18 Sep 2010
Messages
672
This is a really significant issue, especially with the fact a lot of drivers are new so aren't used to making announcements. Some drivers don't realise when there's no automated announcements, some are anxious of making manual announcements and some just don't see the issue, or will only announce the major stations.


The issue, as with most things, is Nexus. They've left it too late and now the system is crumbling. The trains are evidently broken but this was known to become an issue when Nexus decided to send the trains for another refurbishment, even so the new trains are going to be rattling through a system that has seen a slapdash refurbishment with some stations clearly stuck in the 80s with major issues forming, along with failing infrastructure.
My first experience of the system was 14 years ago and even then it seemed tired and outdated, what it needs is the whole system shut down for a period of time and refurbished, but then we have seen the chaos when they shut down the South shields line last year for Metro flow works
 

Maninblack

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Joined
24 Sep 2011
Messages
58
That is my fear for the upcoming winter if we get anything seriously cold which would be embarrassing for the system.

Any updates to the fleet? Has any long term out of use units been in service and has any further been withdrawn? I think a poster has said he has not seen 4059 and 4063 in service for a while.
Who in their right mind would allow a transport system to stretch the life span of rolling stock to 40 plus years? I think there should be a public enquiry for the good of the nation. Even Network South East didn't have Metro's problems in their darkest hours. I used to use their services from London Bridge to Ashford.
 

Volvictof

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12 Oct 2019
Messages
170
Location
Newcastle
This is a really significant issue, especially with the fact a lot of drivers are new so aren't used to making announcements. Some drivers don't realise when there's no automated announcements, some are anxious of making manual announcements and some just don't see the issue, or will only announce the major stations.
It’s true that as a driver you don’t really know if there is or isn’t any automated announcements. Most of the cabs are too noisy So we rely on someone telling us they aren’t working. Also the official method is to only manually announce major stations and interchanges. There’s a document that we carry with the list and what we are suppose to say. I believe for safety it’s not desirable to be announcing every station. Current rules are to not even answer a radio call when not at a stand, unless it’s an emergency.
 

bramling

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5 Mar 2012
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17,790
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Who in their right mind would allow a transport system to stretch the life span of rolling stock to 40 plus years? I think there should be a public enquiry for the good of the nation. Even Network South East didn't have Metro's problems in their darkest hours. I used to use their services from London Bridge to Ashford.

LU have done it several times in recent years.

Victoria Line 1967 stock - about 43 years

Circle Line C69 stock - about 43 years

Metropolitan Line A60 stock - about 51 years

Meanwhile, still going strong:

Bakerloo Line 1972 stock - just coming up to 50 years

Piccadilly Line 1973 stock - certain to see 50 years

None of these have had serious reliability problems, in fact they were/are at least tolerably reliable. The A stock might be a special case as they had a comparatively easy life, but all the others have been worked hard.

Of note, all of the above were built by Metro Cammell, same as the Metrocar fleet. Of course, the above fleets also share something else in common, which is that they aren’t operated by Nexus!
 

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
2,296
LU have done it several times in recent years.

Victoria Line 1967 stock - about 43 years

Circle Line C69 stock - about 43 years

Metropolitan Line A60 stock - about 51 years

Meanwhile, still going strong:

Bakerloo Line 1972 stock - just coming up to 50 years

Piccadilly Line 1973 stock - certain to see 50 years

None of these have had serious reliability problems, in fact they were/are at least tolerably reliable. The A stock might be a special case as they had a comparatively easy life, but all the others have been worked hard.

Of note, all of the above were built by Metro Cammell, same as the Metrocar fleet. Of course, the above fleets also share something else in common, which is that they aren’t operated by Nexus!
You forgot Class 483 - formerly LUL 1938 Stock. Withdrawn in January 2021, at 80-odd years old, having been delivered to the IOW as striplings of 50-odd.
 

adam_haddad40

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2 Nov 2022
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21
Location
Northumberland
The issue, as with most things, is Nexus. They've left it too late and now the system is crumbling. The trains are evidently broken but this was known to become an issue when Nexus decided to send the trains for another refurbishment, even so the new trains are going to be rattling through a system that has seen a slapdash refurbishment with some stations clearly stuck in the 80s with major issues forming, along with failing infrastructure.

The simple fact of the matter is there was no money forthcoming from government prior to the Autumn Budget in 2017 when they announced the £337 million partial funding of the new fleet. Nexus and the transport bodies had to essentially beg for the money from Government because they knew the trains were life expired. Prior to 2017 all they could do was refurbish the existing trains on a shoestring. Remember the contract with Wabtec for the 3/4 life refurbishment was only £25 million and was scaled back because there was more corrosion than expected and no more money.
 

ModernRailways

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21 Apr 2011
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2,051
The simple fact of the matter is there was no money forthcoming from government prior to the Autumn Budget in 2017 when they announced the £337 million partial funding of the new fleet. Nexus and the transport bodies had to essentially beg for the money from Government because they knew the trains were life expired. Prior to 2017 all they could do was refurbish the existing trains on a shoestring. Remember the contract with Wabtec for the 3/4 life refurbishment was only £25 million and was scaled back because there was more corrosion than expected and no more money.
At the time of asking for funding for the second refurbishment Nexus were busy with the quality bus contracts which meant Metro fell by the wayside. They didn't have the ability to try and push through the quality bus contracts whilst also putting a business case forward for a new fleet. This was all mentioned at the time, to the point the old megathread (if it's archived somewhere) will likely have us discussing this exact issue.
Anyone with a knowledge of the metro fleet, and isn't sat in an office counting pennies, would've known that the trains were almost life expired and were struggling back in 2010. A significant refurb may have helped, but it was anything but significant and a lot of problems remained.
 

Paul_10

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24 Feb 2011
Messages
744
Anyone with a knowledge of the metro fleet, and isn't sat in an office counting pennies, would've known that the trains were almost life expired and were struggling back in 2010. A significant refurb may have helped, but it was anything but significant and a lot of problems remained.

Not sure I agree with that, yes course there may of been some issues at times but not daily and peak trains always ran. Infact im sure during the snowy period in 2010, it was said metro was the only transport that was running fairly reliably(albeit I may of recalled there was some fleet shortages because of the cold). If we get that type of cold now and given how small the fleet is now then I fear a system closure.

Going back a bit of history, it's those in charge of drawing up the plans for Metro reinvigoration that thought it's more financially viable to refurbish the fleet instead of replacing them in Phase 2 of the project. Proved to be a big mistake seeing where we are today and the other mistake was to put the metro under the hands of a private company. The fears people had all came to fruition and there's been no recovery and sadly things will only get worse before perhaps getting better once the new fleet is up and running.
 

hacman

Member
Joined
22 Jul 2011
Messages
346
LU have done it several times in recent years.

Victoria Line 1967 stock - about 43 years

Circle Line C69 stock - about 43 years

Metropolitan Line A60 stock - about 51 years

Meanwhile, still going strong:

Bakerloo Line 1972 stock - just coming up to 50 years

Piccadilly Line 1973 stock - certain to see 50 years

None of these have had serious reliability problems, in fact they were/are at least tolerably reliable. The A stock might be a special case as they had a comparatively easy life, but all the others have been worked hard.

Of note, all of the above were built by Metro Cammell, same as the Metrocar fleet. Of course, the above fleets also share something else in common, which is that they aren’t operated by Nexus!

It's also worth remembering that these fleets were built to a very different standard than the Metrocars, and in some cases shared components with each other and other fleets.

The Metrocars were a one-off build, and were pretty cheap and nasty even when new - they were very much a "light rail", budget option. The various refurbishments they have seen over their lifetime were also very much cosmetic or electrical, with the mechanical and traction aspects largely remaining as-built.
 

StoneRoad

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6 Jan 2010
Messages
250
Location
Haltwhistle
IIRC the politically instigated "save money" mantra was quite dominant in the original development processes of the Metro system - platforms were cut in length, the number of MetroCars was reduced and other "savings" inflicted.
Not to mention the "privatisation" and bus de-regulation which destroyed what had been planned as a fully integrated public transport system.

Some of that "save money" mindset obviously influenced the various mid-life refurbishments, and all of those decisions are now biting nexus on the a**e.
 

hacman

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Joined
22 Jul 2011
Messages
346
IIRC the politically instigated "save money" mantra was quite dominant in the original development processes of the Metro system - platforms were cut in length, the number of MetroCars was reduced and other "savings" inflicted.
Not to mention the "privatisation" and bus de-regulation which destroyed what had been planned as a fully integrated public transport system.

Some of that "save money" mindset obviously influenced the various mid-life refurbishments, and all of those decisions are now biting nexus on the a**e.

The platform length reductions are one that has really bitten us - even if the full complement of 120 units wasn't to be delivered, having the full-length platforms would have given greater flexibility with the current fleet and better options for the new fleet.

It would have put Nexus in a situation where they could curtail the timetable, and then run trains with the number of sets available forming either 2 or 3 set trains. Having a train that always turns up but is sometimes short-formed is better than the current situation of rolling cancellations.

What's even crazier is that some of the platforms were actually shortened rather than simply not being built to full length! Yet we then have stations which were added to the network a little later on such as Palmersville and Kingston Park which did get built from scratch to a full 3-unit length...
 

Trestrol

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12 Apr 2022
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210
Location
Newcastle
A lot of the remaining original stations had their long platforms cut back. Why go to the expense of removing a brick or stone built platform when the could have fenced it off and removed the platform edge instead.
 

hacman

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Joined
22 Jul 2011
Messages
346
A lot of the remaining original stations had their long platforms cut back. Why go to the expense of removing a brick or stone built platform when the could have fenced it off and removed the platform edge instead.

Exactly - a strange decision! Even removing the platform edge would probably not be required in many cases.
 

MetroCar4058

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18 Jun 2014
Messages
580
I doubt that the Metro will need 120m platforms until at least we start talking about the next fleet in about 40 years time.

The system is nowhere near capacity or needing longer trains The old vehicles are so space inefficient it is painful.

Current platform lengths are not an issue for the system at all, apart from some local issues Eg Felling.
 
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hacman

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22 Jul 2011
Messages
346
I doubt that the Metro will need 120m platforms until at least we start talking about the next fleet in about 40 years time.

The system is nowhere near capacity or needing longer trains The old vehicles are so space inefficient it is painful.

Current platform lengths are not an issue for the system at all, apart from some local issues Eg Felling.

120m platforms are not what is being discussed here though. The original design for the Metro system called for 85-90m to allow a train composed of 3 of the current sets to be fully platformed - and it is this which was cut back and represents a missed opportunity.
 

MetroCar4058

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18 Jun 2014
Messages
580
120m platforms are not what is being discussed here though. The original design for the Metro system called for 85-90m to allow a train composed of 3 of the current sets to be fully platformed - and it is this which was cut back and represents a missed opportunity.
Sorry, my mistake I did mean for 3 unit 90m platforms. :oops:

Same point stands. 90m platforms aren’t required on the Metro. Stations in tunnelled sections do however have space behind the head walls for platform extensions to 90m. It’s not designed out.
 
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hacman

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22 Jul 2011
Messages
346
Sorry, my mistake I did mean for 3 unit 90m platforms. :oops:

Same point stands.

Not really though, as it would have allowed a greater degree of flexibility in how they deploy the fleet they currently have available.

One of the selling points of the Stadtbahnwagen-B style design was that the two-car articulated units could be coupled up in various formations to allow the provision to match passenger demand. In the current situation where we've seen years of driver shortages and are now seeing a shortage of serviceable units, being able to re-cast the timetable with longer trains at slightly less frequent intervals would have given Neuxs the flexibility needed to safeguard the reliability of the timetable with the resources available.

Another benefit would be on event days such as the Great North Run, airshow, football matches and concerts Nexus would have also been able to add capacity in a very targeted way without needing to reduce headways or get extra crew to work.

Whilst the newer trains will be single-unit, they could have been ordered in a different format to take advantage of longer platform lengths if they'd been available - either by having longer single-unit trains with say 6 or 8 cars, or by having a higher number of 3-car sets working doubled.

Short platforms on a network really can be a hindrance; many networks in their design include passive provision for platform extensions. Metro ended up in a weird situation where the tunnels were constructed with what became passive provision while existing platforms were actively reduced at a cost.
 

MetroCar4058

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18 Jun 2014
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580
Not really though, as it would have allowed a greater degree of flexibility in how they deploy the fleet they currently have available.

One of the selling points of the Stadtbahnwagen-B style design was that the two-car articulated units could be coupled up in various formations to allow the provision to match passenger demand. In the current situation where we've seen years of driver shortages and are now seeing a shortage of serviceable units, being able to re-cast the timetable with longer trains at slightly less frequent intervals would have given Neuxs the flexibility needed to safeguard the reliability of the timetable with the resources available.

Another benefit would be on event days such as the Great North Run, airshow, football matches and concerts Nexus would have also been able to add capacity in a very targeted way without needing to reduce headways or get extra crew to work.

Whilst the newer trains will be single-unit, they could have been ordered in a different format to take advantage of longer platform lengths if they'd been available - either by having longer single-unit trains with say 6 or 8 cars, or by having a higher number of 3-car sets working doubled.

Short platforms on a network really can be a hindrance; many networks in their design include passive provision for platform extensions. Metro ended up in a weird situation where the tunnels were constructed with what became passive provision while existing platforms were actively reduced at a cost.

Unfortunately it just doesn’t work as you are describing. At the end of the day if you run the same headway with the same number of vehicles you have the same capacity. Unless you are dealing with very localised flows, which isn’t the case for GNR or concerts on the system, you’re just moving deckchairs and not increasing capacity. Major event flows require a signifiant number of trains to shift the volume of passengers over a long period of time. You’d end up with smaller vehicles which you’ve robbed from turning up at some point and clearing the queue at the same time, disadvantaging those who have potentially waited the longest.

Reforming trains requires crews and more complicated diagraming if you are proposing to do it during the day or lots of shunting in the evening.

There are also other considerations such as demand on the power supply. One of the major issues holding back the GNR service and resolved during Metro Flow.

The economics don’t stack up. Let’s buy 30 more vehicles, spend a fortune on longer platforms, improved power supply and signal locations for a couple of days per year. Spend a fortune on overtime to plan complicated vehicle moves.

It just doesn't make any sense unless it is at least happening once or twice a week. This doesn’t work for the current situation as Nexus lack vehicles, if anything you’d run single vehicles.

The key here is simplicity, the Tyne and Wear Metro doesn’t require any additional capacity and will have sufficient rolling stock to cover until the Stadler vehicles are gone.
 

hacman

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22 Jul 2011
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346
Unfortunately it just doesn’t work as you are describing. At the end of the day if you run the same headway with the same number of vehicles you have the same capacity. Unless you are dealing with very localised flows, which isn’t the case for GNR or concerts on the system, you’re just moving deckchairs and not increasing capacity. Major event flows require a signifiant number of trains to shift the volume of passengers over a long period of time. You’d end up with smaller vehicles which you’ve robbed from turning up at some point and clearing the queue at the same time, disadvantaging those who have potentially waited the longest.

Reforming trains requires crews and more complicated diagraming if you are proposing to do it during the day or lots of shunting in the evening.

There are also other considerations such as demand on the power supply. One of the major issues holding back the GNR service and resolved during Metro Flow.

The economics don’t stack up. Let’s buy 30 more vehicles, spend a fortune on longer platforms, improved power supply and signal locations for a couple of days per year. Spend a fortune on overtime to plan complicated vehicle moves.

It just doesn't make any sense unless it is at least happening once or twice a week. This doesn’t work for the current situation as Nexus lack vehicles, if anything you’d run single vehicles.

The key here is simplicity, the Tyne and Wear Metro doesn’t require any additional capacity and will have sufficient rolling stock to cover until the Stadler vehicles are gone.

The key is simplicity - except simplicity often costs more money unless you want to sacrifice quality. The easiest way to get simplicity is to have a sizable over-provision of vehicles and more staff to drive them.

The events are localised flows that see trains in a specific area fill up at a specific time in a specific direction - under a more flexible system you can run the same headway, but you know which diagrams will be in the area at that time, and which will be nowhere near. You can therefore shunt to provision extra capacity where needed before the start of service. Other systems do this and it works. Some do reform trains during the day, but that's down to their individual needs.

The power supply demand situation was a very real issue, but again this is something that was a result of cost-reductions during the construction phase of Metro. As you say it is now being rectified.

As I say, this is also more than just event days. Under the current situation, we're seeing entire trains cancelled each day due to unit availability. Before this, it was due to the number of drivers.

With the ability to run 3-set trains, Nexus would have been in the position to reduce the frequency, meaning less crew needed whilst still providing a similar amount of capacity. The same applies to a reduction in available units - the ability to run a consistent timetable with some short forms would provide a better service to customers.

the Tyne and Wear Metro doesn’t require any additional capacity and will have sufficient rolling stock to cover until the Stadler vehicles are gone.
This couldn't be further from the truth. There is on a daily basis at present a number of services cancelled outright due to not having sufficient rolling stock in a serviceable condition - the situation is even being discussed in the press.

Additional capacity is sorely needed in many areas during rush-hour and other busy times. Whilst passenger numbers have not recovered to pre-pandemic levels due to a number of factors (the reliability of the service being one), there has been a need for greater capacity for quite a time now - the design and strategy for the new trains even confirms this, as does the investment into Metro Flow to support a network-wide 10-minute frequency.

4002 was shunted off the avoiding line yesterday. It is not long for this world.

Was 4002 also earmarked for preservation? Or is it likely to be going for scrap?
 

MetroCar4058

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18 Jun 2014
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580
The events are localised flows that see trains in a specific area fill up at a specific time in a specific direction

GNR cover most of the network going to the city centre or South Shields. Newcastle games are similar. Concerts are the same, especially at SOL.
Under the current situation, we're seeing entire trains cancelled each day due to unit availability. Before this, it was due to the number of drivers.

I cannot remember the peak vehicle requirement on Metro for just the core service but there really is a lot of stock to be able to provide this. Networks shouldn’t be planning for 30-50% of the rolling stock being unavailable, it shouldn’t happen. Here it has.

This couldn't be further from the truth. There is on a daily basis at present a number of services cancelled outright due to not having sufficient rolling stock in a serviceable condition - the situation is even being discussed in the press.
Yes, hence why I stated with the new rolling stock and when they are gone - not the current rolling stock and the crazy situation at the mo ent. Running the pre-Covid service gives plenty of capacity. The system is nowhere near its capacity when running the service it is meant to run. The Stadler rolling stock Nexus have ordered will see Metro through.
 

kez19

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15 May 2020
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Dundee
I used the Metro yesterday morning to go to South Shields at Central Station (between 0855-0910) was surprised by the first train that turned up how busy it was (full/standing) plus it was running late (I didn't board it), so waited on the following one a few minutes later.
 

Maninblack

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Joined
24 Sep 2011
Messages
58
I'm losing interest in Tyne and Wear Metro!
I think that the way it is run is a fiasco!! I thought there would by a stready stream of new trains being delivered!
Instead---------I am getting daily messages on Twitter to allow extra time for my journey due to lack of trains. And the talk on here is mentioning "scrap yards" etc. What exactly is the main fault on the old set that they can't fix that could be fixed 6 months ago?
How on earth have we got to this point where nothing works as it should?
Metro say that there has to be 90,000 seperate tests on the new trains. So why don't they test them while in service? Surely the current fleet (whats left of it) will never match the expectations of the new fleet! So what is the point??
Isn't public transport about moving people from A to B? I think "public service" is very thin!!
Sorry folks, but I am just getting extremely frustrated with the current state of every aspect of the Metro!
 

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