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Metrolink tram extensions

DarloRich

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We have seen quite bit of expansion on the metro link network in Manchester since it's inception and I wondered what the most realistic future extension will be beyond Airport terminal 2?

Ashton > Stalybridge? ( I got the tram to Ashton to go to the football and Stalybridge doesn't seem far away!)
Trafford Centre > Salford Stadium?
City Centre > Salford Crescent > Media City?
Extension beyond the Airport?

Does anyone have an informed view?
 
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Mcr Warrior

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I'd say an East Didsbury -> Stockport extension might just happen in the next decade on the Metrolink network.
 

WatcherZero

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The Rapid-Transit strategy is going to be published early in the new year, but the plan is that by the end of the current five year budget in April 2027 one tram extension will have a TWAO signed off by the transport minister and two extensions will have completed full business cases ready for TWAO application, the Oldham-Bury tram-train line will also be progressed in the same timeframe. 31 other line extensions proposals are under consideration in the rapid transit strategy (though naturally some will be duplicative or alternate routes).
 

185

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East Dids - Stockport, Crumpsall - Middleton and perhaps Radcliffe - Bolton seem to be the highest priorities looking at recent discussions within the authorities and PTE.
 

Burton Road

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How does the completion of the Wythenshawe loop section of the Airport line look to meet a social need in that area?

It doesn't really. The social need is primarily already met by the existing route, whereas the closure of the loop is more about unlocking additional development sites at Wythenshawe Hospital South, Timperley Triangle, Davenport Green (the proposed HS2 site was already planned for development prior to that project) and Manchester Airport. It would also speed up south Manchester to Airport journeys considerably. It would have improved access to the housing area at Newall Green and marginally improved access to Wythenshawe hospital, but that's all the social purpose it had/has.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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It doesn't really. The social need is primarily already met by the existing route, whereas the closure of the loop is more about unlocking additional development sites at Wythenshawe Hospital South, Timperley Triangle, Davenport Green (the proposed HS2 site was already planned for development prior to that project) and Manchester Airport. It would also speed up south Manchester to Airport journeys considerably. It would have improved access to the housing area at Newall Green and marginally improved access to Wythenshawe hospital, but that's all the social purpose it had/has.
Thanks for the above. A number of people that I have talked to all see Wythenshawe Hospital as the main social transport need in that area.
 

Mcr Warrior

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A number of people that I have talked to all see Wythenshawe Hospital as the main social transport need in that area.
Roundthorn tram stop is less than a third of a mile from Wythenshawe Hospital's A&E department, but other hospital departments are somewhat further away and so could be just that little bit too far, for folk needing them.
 

Burton Road

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Thanks for the above. A number of people that I have talked to all see Wythenshawe Hospital as the main social transport need in that area.

I mean they're not wrong, but the new stop would be between Clay Lane and the incinerator, so it wouldn't be much more convenient for the existing public entrances than Roundthorn is. It'll probably be more useful for staff and those working in the proposed commercial zone at the south end of the hospital site. There are also plans to move the main public entrance to the hospital around where the existing maternity entrance is, so should that go ahead the new stop would be much more useful.
 

TheGrew

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Two routes come to mind for me (warning crayonista incoming!)
Replace the guided busway to Leigh broadly following the existing route but then:
  1. Running it right up to Monton
  2. Along Monton Road
  3. Eccles Old Road
  4. Salford Shopping Centre using Fitzwarren Street and Churchhill Way
  5. Rejoining the A6
  6. Bridge Street before joining the second city crossing at Princess Street.
The other route would take a similar path but follow the old line to Bolton Great Moor Street serving Little Hulton and the Royal Bolton Hospital before terminating at Bolton station. The challenge with this route is that some of the alignment has been built on so would require either compulsory purchase or street running to bypass.
 

sprunt

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Trafford Centre > Salford Stadium?

Given the canal being in the way, I suspect that if the stadium were going to be served it would be as an extension to the Eccles line. I'm not even sure how the Metrolink would cross the canal given the need to maintain shipping access along that stretch (I assume, as the most recent road bridge there is a lifting bridge) - does the technology exist to have a lift bridge/swing bridge with overhead cables?
 

DarloRich

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does the technology exist to have a lift bridge/swing bridge with overhead cables?
Is there not one near Norwich on the main line?

Given the canal being in the way, I suspect that if the stadium were going to be served it would be as an extension to the Eccles line.
No idea on practicalities - it just looked like a large "thing" near the motorway to aim for! Looking at the map the route from Eccles seems more sensible
 

61653 HTAFC

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Given the canal being in the way, I suspect that if the stadium were going to be served it would be as an extension to the Eccles line. I'm not even sure how the Metrolink would cross the canal given the need to maintain shipping access along that stretch (I assume, as the most recent road bridge there is a lifting bridge) - does the technology exist to have a lift bridge/swing bridge with overhead cables?
Electrified movable bridges are well established technology at this point, Trowse near Norwich being the obvious domestic example.

Quite often the suggestion of tram-trains in Manchester comes up, I'd not be surprised to see the Rose Hill branch go this way. Just hope the powers that be don't decide to "tramify" the Glossop/Hadfield line instead.
 

TheGrew

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Are these serious/realistic proposals, or are we straying into completely speculative territory here?
Those are speculative though I think most of this thread probably exists in that space.
I think Leigh's busway should be converted to Metrolink as I anticipate it would stimulate demand along that corridor, it just becomes a question of how you route it inside the M60. Metrolink has traditionally done quite well reusing rail alignments.
 

Greybeard33

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Given the canal being in the way, I suspect that if the stadium were going to be served it would be as an extension to the Eccles line. I'm not even sure how the Metrolink would cross the canal given the need to maintain shipping access along that stretch (I assume, as the most recent road bridge there is a lifting bridge) - does the technology exist to have a lift bridge/swing bridge with overhead cables?
A Metrolink extension from the Trafford Centre to Port Salford, with a stop at the Salford City Community Stadium, is an official TfGM proposal, albeit not yet funded. The lift bridge over the Ship Canal has passive provision for tram tracks.

The line is shown on Map 3 of the TfGM Five Year Transport Delivery Plan, which can be viewed under

In the next five years we will develop options for...​

on the following webpage:

Incidentally, the first generation Manchester tram network had tracks over the Trafford Road swing bridge, with the overhead lines disconnected/reconnected automatically when the bridge swung. Not new technology!
 

WatcherZero

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Its being extended to the new housing development just before the bridge but I cant see it crossing the bridge in the medium term, it was planned to support the stadium and the development around the stadium neither of which really took off.
 

M60lad

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Considering the next extension of Metrolink is planned to be Stockport I've got a couple of questions:

1> Have Metrolink got enough vehicles in their fleet that can operate a planned extension to Stockport

2> If not where are trams going to come from to operate the extension as M5000s aren't built anymore from what I can gather?

3> When Metrolink do get new vehicles will these just be for new routes or will they be interchangeable between the routes Metrolink operate now?
 
Last edited:

edwin_m

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Considering the next extension of Metrolink is planned to be Stockport I've got a couple of questions:

1> Have Metrolink got enough vehicles in their fleet that can operate a planned extension to Stockport

2> If not where are trams going to come from to operate the extension as M5000s aren't built anymore from what I can gather?

3> When Metrolink do get new vehicles will these just be for new routes or will they be interchangeable between the routes Metrolink operate now?
Depends on the prospects for the tram-train routes. If it's expected they will go ahead then a batch of tram-trains would most likely be ordered, the same length as a double M5000. The tram-train route would displace some M5000s that could be used for extensions or increased capacity elsewhere.
 

Burton Road

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Depends on the prospects for the tram-train routes. If it's expected they will go ahead then a batch of tram-trains would most likely be ordered, the same length as a double M5000. The tram-train route would displace some M5000s that could be used for extensions or increased capacity elsewhere.

The plan is for a single next generation platform, presumably some tram-train and some just tram. The first lot of these would be intended for the Bury-Rochdale tram-train pathfinder, but I would imagine additional orders would follow. Given the problems the M5000s have had on the old BR alignments I wonder if TfGM might not just put in an order of whatever they select for the Altrincham/Bury Line and reallocate M5000s to any new Metrolink routes as and when they need to?
 

edwin_m

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The plan is for a single next generation platform, presumably some tram-train and some just tram. The first lot of these would be intended for the Bury-Rochdale tram-train pathfinder, but I would imagine additional orders would follow. Given the problems the M5000s have had on the old BR alignments I wonder if TfGM might not just put in an order of whatever they select for the Altrincham/Bury Line and reallocate M5000s to any new Metrolink routes as and when they need to?
That might be needed for capacity reasons too, though I don't know what the numbers are looking like after Covid. As a totally new route Bury-Rochdale wouldn't displace any M5000s, unless it continued to or through Oldham. Replacing the doubles on Bury-Altrincham by a new 60m-ish vehicle would increase capacity by eliminating two cabs and a coupling worth of wasted space, and displace a good number of M5000s for use elsewhere. Or the new design might be modular enough to be delivered in various lengths as well as having the option of tram-train capability - 30m would probably be plenty for Bury-Rochdale and it wouldn't need a 25kV transformer which is the usual reason for tram-trains to be longer than this.
 

Danfilm007

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The M5000s (esp. the early ones) seem to be suffering quite badly from rust internally too?
 

Jonny no toes

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Middleton is a town that has largely been neglected by either rail or metro over the past 50 years, and it shows! It looks un-prosperous, it has however a huge bus station planted like some space station in the centre next to the shopping area, which has seen expansion over the years. it’s now on the list along with Rochdale to receive the Metrolink. Along with sites also earmarked for redevelopment, however, this very much driven by developers advising government bodies! for what they see as very profitable land banking! I’m sure with many other areas, not a bad thing as long as the tenure is balanced towards what the area needs as appose to how much profit the developer's needs….
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Not wishing to put a damper on any tram aspirations, but now is the time to ensure all faults etc that need urgent remedying on the current tram network, before any new works are envisaged. And when will they decided to finally remove the shrub that has been growing at high level on the exterior wall tramline entrance to the Manchester Victoria railway station.
 

507 001

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There are a number of extensions likely to happen within the next ten years.

1) Traditional extension to Stockport from East Dids.

2) Tram-Train pathfinder to Heywood via Castleton (this is probably the most likely).

3) Tram-Train pathfinder to Hale from Alti

4) Tram-Train pathfinder to Wilmslow from Manchester Airport, although the cancellation of the Manchester leg of HS2 puts a spanner in the works for this one.

M5000s are not technically in production anymore, but then it was the same when batch 7 was ordered. I suspect if you threw enough money at Alstom they’d be willing to build more of them*. The question is would you want to build more? I suspect the answer to that question is no.

The M5000 is now an ancient design, and is really starting to show its age. A lot of its onboard systems are very much obsolete, resulting in difficulties obtaining certain bits during the construction of batch 7.

Theres also the fact that it hasn’t been the huge success story everyone hoped it would be. It’s not particularly suited to a lot of our network, and whilst it works, as a design it isn’t exactly happy about it.

What we need is a longer, heavier duty vehicle, more akin to a street running capable Stadler 555, so effectively a 398 with more doors.

*The magic number last time being an order for 26 vehicles, so we ordered 27.
 

daodao

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There are a number of extensions likely to happen within the next ten years.

1) Traditional extension to Stockport from East Dids.

2) Tram-Train pathfinder to Heywood via Castleton (this is probably the most likely).

3) Tram-Train pathfinder to Hale from Alti

4) Tram-Train pathfinder to Wilmslow from Manchester Airport, although the cancellation of the Manchester leg of HS2 puts a spanner in the works for this one.
Surely the priority should be to convert existing poorly used suburban heavy rail lines to Metrolink and replace 1-2 tph low quality dmu services with 5 tph electric Metrolink trams/tram-trains, e.g. the lines to Atherton (with conversion of the busway from Walkden to Leigh) and to Marple Rose Hill. There could even be a branch off the line via Reddish to Stockport, which would be of more value than approaching Stockport from the west.

The extension to Stockport from East Didsbury will be very difficult to construct as much of the former rail alignment is lost/buried/submerged by the M56, and there is a perfectly good train service from Manchester to Stockport and its suburbs.

Extending Metrolink to Hale will be messy and complicated by the line's use for a lot of heavy freight traffic. There is also likely to be very little demand; Hale Village is served by just 1 hourly minibus (a Mellor Strata).

Extending Metrolink outwith Greater Manchester to rural Styal and prosperous Wilmslow, where much of the population drives Chelsea tractors, is futile; the minimal bus provision there is a good indication of how little public transport is used in East Cheshire.

The only route in South Manchester that merits consideration for conversion to Metrolink in terms of potential demand is that along Wilmslow Road.
 

Greybeard33

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A Transport Capital Programme paper for the 21 March Bee Network Committee (BNC) meeting has a section entitled "Future Rapid Transport Programme - Extensions Package", including the following:
2.7 Sustaining, integrating, improving and growing the rapid transit system
incrementally (such as through increased capacity on existing lines, new and
improved stops and stations, and a better ‘first and last mile’) are all essential to that
vision. In addition to this, transforming the rapid transit system with new, extended
or converted lines is also anticipated to play a key role.
2.8 Given that the timeframe to opening any rapid transit scheme of this type is typically
8 to 10 years (due to the need to make a case, finalise funding, obtain statutory
powers, and design, construct and commission the line), the CRSTS1 Delivery Plan
as approved by GMCA in June 2022 includes an appropriately scaled development
programme with two key items as follows:
• “Development of long-term rapid transit options: preparation of feasibility
studies etc. to support development of, and protect routes for, long-term
rapid transit options across Greater Manchester.”
• “Powers for 1 scheme and development for 2 schemes: development of a
Powers application for one scheme and pre-Powers development for two.”
2.9 Planned activities for “Development of long-term rapid transit options” to support the
CRSTS1 programme have been divided into four broad workstreams:
• Prioritisation – A prioritisation exercise for the new rapid transit lines in the
Delivery Plan, to create a robust and rolling future programme that can fit
with and take advantage of available capital funding arrangements.
• Space-Saving – Setting out consensus rapid transit routes in Local Plans,
helping to reserve space for potential future delivery and responding when
relevant planning applications along the route arise.
• Network – Understanding overall network capacity challenges across the
rapid transit system out to 2040 in line with our ‘Right Mix’ vision and building
a programme case for expansion.
• Optimisation – Underpinning any such expansion proposals with proposals to
renew and enhance the existing Metrolink network so that it is optimised (e.g.
speed, journey time and running costs) whilst prioritising safety at all times.
2.10 A total of £1.2m has been drawn down to date (£0.75m approved in February 2023;
£0.45m in May 2023) to support work on the above to the end of March 2024.
Building on the activities undertaken to date, BNC is now requested to approve a
further drawdown of £3.3m to cover planned activities (as described in 2.9 above) to
the next major milestone of commencing Strategic Outline Business Cases for
potential system expansion, in line with the CRSTS1 Delivery Plan.
2.11 Further details on sustaining, integrating, improving, growing and transforming the
rapid transit system – and emerging priorities for expansion – are anticipated to be
brought forward to BNC in the draft GM Rapid Transit Strategy in due course.

Until the GM Rapid Transport Strategy is finally published, I think discussions about possible Metrolink extensions will remain in the realm of speculation.
 

edwin_m

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There are a number of extensions likely to happen within the next ten years.

1) Traditional extension to Stockport from East Dids.

2) Tram-Train pathfinder to Heywood via Castleton (this is probably the most likely).

3) Tram-Train pathfinder to Hale from Alti

4) Tram-Train pathfinder to Wilmslow from Manchester Airport, although the cancellation of the Manchester leg of HS2 puts a spanner in the works for this one.

M5000s are not technically in production anymore, but then it was the same when batch 7 was ordered. I suspect if you threw enough money at Alstom they’d be willing to build more of them*. The question is would you want to build more? I suspect the answer to that question is no.

The M5000 is now an ancient design, and is really starting to show its age. A lot of its onboard systems are very much obsolete, resulting in difficulties obtaining certain bits during the construction of batch 7.

Theres also the fact that it hasn’t been the huge success story everyone hoped it would be. It’s not particularly suited to a lot of our network, and whilst it works, as a design it isn’t exactly happy about it.

What we need is a longer, heavier duty vehicle, more akin to a street running capable Stadler 555, so effectively a 398 with more doors.

*The magic number last time being an order for 26 vehicles, so we ordered 27.
Indeed. A single vehicle of the same length as the existing doubles would immediately give a capacity uplift on those routes where doubles already operate at the maximum practicable frequency, by creating passenger space to replace two cabs and a coupler. This in turn allows more M5000s to be cascaded onto routes where capacity isn't quite so critical.

The new vehicle would also have tram-train capability, either from day 1 or with design provision for adding the necessary equipment later. This would preferably be a modular design allowing addition of either a 25kV transformer or batteries, depending on what routes were converted and how battery technology had progressed in the meantime. A single length tram probably wouldn't have enough space for either.
Surely the priority should be to convert existing poorly used suburban heavy rail lines to Metrolink and replace 1-2 tph low quality dmu services with 5 tph electric Metrolink trams/tram-trains, e.g. the lines to Atherton (with conversion of the busway from Walkden to Leigh) and to Marple Rose Hill. There could even be a branch off the line via Reddish to Stockport, which would be of more value than approaching Stockport from the west.
...
Extending Metrolink to Hale will be messy and complicated by the line's use for a lot of heavy freight traffic. There is also likely to be very little demand; Hale Village is served by just 1 hourly minibus (a Mellor Strata).
The Pathfinder schemes look to be low risk "toe in the water" suggestions which don't cost the earth and can be walked back if they go wrong. I would expect Hale to be part of a scheme to convert the parallel single tracks through Navigation Road to a double tram-train track, thus removing a bottleneck on the system. This would of course require all Altrincham line services to be tram-trains, realising the capacity benefit of the longer single vehicle, unless the Timperley turnback was brought into regular use.

Atherton conversion needs a major investment to link the route to the rest of Metrolink, which probably puts it into a notional "tram-train phase 2", only to be take forward if the idea of tram-train is shown to work in a place where both the heavy rail and the tramway networks are more complicated and busy than they are in Rotherham.

Having looked at both in the past, I see an approach to Stockport from either east or west as relatively similar in technical difficulty (there is a reasonably credible route that avoids the development beyond East Didsbury). But the eastern option requires a Marple line tram-train conversion, which is another larger scale scheme needing major construction to join it to the rest of Metrolink, and the extra benefit of connecting it to Stockport is probably less than it would be via Didsbury. The freight issues on the Marple line are of similar difficulty to those on the mid-Cheshire.
Extending Metrolink outwith Greater Manchester to rural Styal and prosperous Wilmslow, where much of the population drives Chelsea tractors, is futile; the minimal bus provision there is a good indication of how little public transport is used in East Cheshire.
I agree, the electrified routes to the south make sense to remain as heavy rail.
 

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