Midnight Trains - Sleepers radiating from Paris, indicates UK route

[Bald Rick]

So I can well believe that Midnight Trains will think there's a market to be had somewhere between SNCF's very basic offer and the Orient Expresses height of tourist luxury by pitching themselves as a "Hotel on Wheels" with the sorts of amenities one would expect from a modern hotel.

Basically like the CS. Priced to make a profit too.

 

[StephenHunter]

How easy would it be to erect a pre-clearance facility at Edinburgh Waverley?

 

[LLivery]

I m sure it will not be like the very expensive tourist 'Orient Express', but more like the Caledonian Sleeper, which operates at the higher end of the market, not really for 'ordinary' passengers except on special occasions. (as the former 'Wagon-Lits' was pre the airline age).

I'm not so sure. SNCF Intercités de Nuit are about as basic a sleeper service as you're likely to find. The ever useful Man in Seat 61 has a video which I'll link below but we're talking 6-bunk (second class) or 4-bunk (first class) couchette cars only with sleeping bags provided. No actual sleeper vehicles and catering in the form of vending machines. It's properly basic compared to most other sleeper services! So I can well believe that Midnight Trains will think there's a market to be had somewhere between SNCF's very basic offer and the Orient Expresses height of tourist luxury by pitching themselves as a "Hotel on Wheels" with the sorts of amenities one would expect from a modern hotel.

Something cheaper like de Nuit or Nightjet would probably be rather successful. But the website made it feel more like Accor on bogies, rather than Travelodge. Looks, I guess, can often be deceiving.

That is discussed at the beginning of this thread. Answer: only if those governments are prepared to subsidise it with an awful lot of money.

Can't see that ever happening

Basically like the CS. Priced to make a profit too.

For Paris to Edinburgh at Cally Sleeper standards, I do wonder what price that could possibly be...

 

[RT4038]

Can't see that ever happening

You may well be right, but it shouldn't be ruled out entirely. Governments / trading blocks may well shell out large sums of money to prove their point of view......

 

[Bald Rick]

For Paris to Edinburgh at Cally Sleeper standards, I do wonder what price that could possibly be...

Many years ago, in a discussion on these pages about London - Europe sleepers, I did a rough price up of the likely cost of a London - Barcelona Sleeper. I think the average cost was about £500 one way. Edinburgh Paris would be about the same.

 

[LLivery]

You may well be right, but it shouldn't be ruled out entirely. Governments / trading blocks may well shell out large sums of money to prove their point of view......

Of course. Money can always be found with political will.

Many years ago, in a discussion on these pages about London - Europe sleepers, I did a rough price up of the likely cost of a London - Barcelona Sleeper. I think the average cost was about £500 one way. Edinburgh Paris would be about the same.

Goodness gracious. £1000 return - you could go to Edinburgh Castle in Jamaica.

 

[Bald Rick]

Goodness gracious. £1000 return - you could go to Edinburgh Castle in Jamaica.

Well the unsubsidised price of a typical CS cabin would be about £300-£350 one way. So in the right ball park.

 

[RT4038]

Of course. Money can always be found with political will.

Some Politicians and Governments can get all misty eyed about Sleepers, and/or transport links to make political points.

Goodness gracious. £1000 return - you could go to Edinburgh Castle in Jamaica.

Not by train though - must always compare apples with apples.

 

[StephenHunter]

Politicians also like the privacy of sleepers.

 

[Roast Veg]

I'm not so sure. SNCF Intercités de Nuit are about as basic a sleeper service as you're likely to find. The ever useful Man in Seat 61 has a video which I'll link below but we're talking 6-bunk (second class) or 4-bunk (first class) couchette cars only with sleeping bags provided. No actual sleeper vehicles and catering in the form of vending machines. It's properly basic compared to most other sleeper services! So I can well believe that Midnight Trains will think there's a market to be had somewhere between SNCF's very basic offer and the Orient Expresses height of tourist luxury by pitching themselves as a "Hotel on Wheels" with the sorts of amenities one would expect from a modern hotel.

By all accounts SNCF don't even want to be running these sleepers. If Midnight Trains simply run enough single and double rooms with a good price/quality balance they'll get plenty of interest.

 

[quantinghome]

How's about this. Let's assume demand for sleeper is generally increasing, and separate Glasgow and Edinburgh trains would be needed in future.

Euston keeps the Glasgow sleeper.

Edinburgh sleeper shifts to the ECML. All the infrastructure is in place to access this from St. Pancras. Sleeper then starts from Gare du Nord to St. Pancras as a late evening service - part cabins, part reclining seats. Train is effectively split in two with Paris-Edinburgh passengers in one half and Paris-London passengers in the other. At St. Pancras the London-bound passengers depart, the train is security-swept and London-Edinburgh passengers come on board (think a similar thing happens on the Amsterdam Eurostar at Brussels). The half hour this takes is not an issue as the sleeper isn't really time-dependent.

But ultimately does this have any advantage over changing from Eurostar to the existing sleeper service in London?

 

[Bald Rick]

But ultimately does this have any advantage over changing from Eurostar to the existing sleeper service in London?

None that I can see, as the journey to London would be rather longer. Also it’s unlikely to get to St Pancras unless the train is capable of 300kph and leaves Paris before 2100.

But the premise of separate Glasgow and Edinburgh trains is interesting. If they are separated, it will be because one of them stops running altogether.

 

[edwin_m]

None that I can see, as the journey to London would be rather longer. Also it’s unlikely to get to St Pancras unless the train is capable of 300kph and leaves Paris before 2100.

But the premise of separate Glasgow and Edinburgh trains is interesting. If they are separated, it will be because one of them stops running altogether.

I think it would also either have to arrive/depart St Pancras at an unsocial hour in the middle of the night, and get access to HS1 when it is currently part-closed for engineering, or it would be using HS1 during the operating hours of Eurostar/Javelin so would have to run at similar speeds.

 

[StephenHunter]

Or just not use HS1?

 

[edwin_m]

Or just not use HS1?

In which case it would have to take a very convoluted route round London to get to Edinburgh, and might end up calling somewhere like Olympia instead of St Pancras.

 

[Bald Rick]

Or just not use HS1?

That’s my point. Not using HS1 (most likely anyway because of sleeper speed and timings) means getting to St Pancras is near pointless - except for border control reasons. It also means the best part of two hours from the tunnel, and thus 5-6 hours from Paris. Then another 6 hours+ to Edinburgh.

 

[StephenHunter]

There's always Kensington...

 

[quantinghome]

None that I can see, as the journey to London would be rather longer. Also it’s unlikely to get to St Pancras unless the train is capable of 300kph and leaves Paris before 2100.

How much slower would Paris-London actually be with 225kph top speed? 20 minutes?

 

[Bald Rick]

How much slower would Paris-London actually be with 225kph top speed? 20 minutes?

3 hours. Because if it can’t run at 300kph, it won’t get on LGV Nord. And if it’s not at Dollands Moor by midnight, it’s not going on HS1.

And there’s no sleepers in Europe suitable for 225kph anyway.

 

[StephenHunter]

3 hours. Because if it can’t run at 300kph, it won’t get on LGV Nord. And if it’s not at Dollands Moor by midnight, it’s not going on HS1.

And there’s no sleepers in Europe suitable for 225kph anyway.

New Nightjet stock has a '230' label on it.

 

[Bald Rick]

New Nightjet stock has a '230' label on it.

My car speedo has 180mph on it.

 

[43096]

My car speedo has 180mph on it.

Given that the new NightJet stock uses the current version of the RailJet stock design (and more day stock is also on order) which definitely can and does do 230km/h, I think your flippancy may be misplaced.

 

[Bald Rick]

Given that the new NightJet stock uses the current version of the RailJet stock design (and more day stock is also on order) which definitely can and does do 230km/h, I think your flippancy may be misplaced.

Oh my car can do 180mph given the right topographical conditions, and I’ve no doubt that the Nightjet stock could do 230kph. But I said suitable, not capable.

 

[Doomotron]

I'm sure there are some stored Class 92s and 37/6s lying around somewhere!

 

[red star]

Perhaps they have anticipated an independent Scotland, that subsequently joins Schengen, and a sealed train transiting England to avoid any border / customs issues. Then it could stop at Reston

ha ha

 

[Tim_UK]

As it is, it seems to be priced out of the reach of the common man and is only open to those who have don't have a issue with a disposable income, if it must succeed then prices should be reduced to increase it affordability to allow the common man to use it.

Many european organisations/companies will offer employees the choice between flying and overland. For green. The money seems to be no issue.

 

[Aictos]

Many european organisations/companies will offer employees the choice between flying and overland. For green. The money seems to be no issue.

I wasn't referring to business travel but rather to personal travel for the likes of those who would use Easyjet etc such as myself to get around Europe as it's cheaper then to use a overnight sleeper service.

 

[edwin_m]

Many european organisations/companies will offer employees the choice between flying and overland. For green. The money seems to be no issue.

I think it would be if the cost was dramatically higher for the rail alternative. Some companies just look at the price on the ticket and don't take account of other issues such as the possibility of avoiding the cost of a hotel.

How many seats are available on early morning/late evening flights between Edinburgh and Paris anyway? This is probably the maximum possible market for a sleeper, given that the existing flights are much quicker and probably cheaper.

 

[Bald Rick]

In normal times, 3/4 flights a day each way with A319 A320.

1 out of EDI early morning, and one back from Paris late evening. All the others are middle of the day.

 

[RobShipway]

The flights would be cheaper. In looking at Easyjet website "https://www.easyjet.com/en/buy/flights?isOneWay=off&pid=www.easyjet.com" at the cost of flights, I found that I could fly out of Edingburgh on Sunday 1st August at 18:50, with arrival in Paris at 21:40 with the cost being £28.99 to fly out and £36.31 to fly back Friday 6th August in the evening leaving Paris at 20:55 and arriving in Edingburgh at 21:40.

Admittedly Midnight trains have no provided as yet any costs for travelling with them. But I suspect that it will be in the £500 - £600 each way, given that the Caledonian Sleeper between London and Edingburgh for the 1st August is £205 for a classic room. A return on the Caledonian Express from Edingburgh to London on the 6th August will set you back £125. So that is £330 return on a sleeper, whereas using evening time flights with Easyjet costs £101,98 return for the same period.