Milk churns

[mor100]

Evening all
Does anyone know when milk churns ceased to be a feature on BR? The latest picture I’ve seen is from 1968 in Scotland. I know they were replaced by dedicated wagons and siphons, and ceased altogether by the early 1980s.
Thanks
Matt

 

[Gloster]

Irritatingly, I think that I came across a reference to this in the last few days, but I can’t remember where or what date was given. However, I would think that the late-1960s sounds about right, although the decline had set in long before and there had only been residual traffic for some time.

Two small thoughts. I suspect that latterly, quite possibly from the 1940s, churns were mainly used for local movements from the station or halt nearest to an isolated farm to a station with a creamery. Secondly, I am fairly sure that I have heard of churns being used to deliver water to isolated railway locations, such as signal boxes.

 

[mor100]

Irritatingly, I think that I came across a reference to this in the last few days, but I can’t remember where or what date was given. However, I would think that the late-1960s sounds about right, although the decline had set in long before and there had only been residual traffic for some time.

Two small thoughts. I suspect that latterly, quite possibly from the 1940s, churns were mainly used for local movements from the station or halt nearest to an isolated farm to a station with a creamery. Secondly, I am fairly sure that I have heard of churns being used to deliver water to isolated railway locations, such as signal boxes.

Thanks - much appreciated.

 

[Lloyds siding]

I remember seeing churns out by local roads in the early 1970s, and railway collection had died out some time before that round our way ( though newspapers, mushrooms and asparagus frequently filled the guard's compartment). It seems the Milk Marketing Board ceased all churn collections in 1979.

 

[Gloster]

A bit of further looking does suggest that movement of milk in churns had largely ceased several years before BR was formed, although there do seem to have been occasional ones up into the 1960s. The local movements would probably have been in a few locations where access for lorries was poor. The Scottish Milk Marketing Board seems to have been a bit slower than its counterpart south of the border in doing away with churns.

 

[Flying Phil]

Back in the mid 60's I worked on Saturdays in a coffee shop and had to bring the milk up in a churn to the serving counter. What was not obvious is that it was full of powdered milk and water that I had mixed downstairs!

 

[Taunton]

Secondly, I am fairly sure that I have heard of churns being used to deliver water to isolated railway locations, such as signal boxes.

The S&D in the 1960s was still doing this, delivering water to isolated crossing keeper cottages. Ivo Peters shows in one of his films delivering water this way to Cockmill Crossing, on the Evercreech to Highbridge line, a location today right in the middle of the Glastonbury Festival site.

 

[AM9]

Back in the mid 60's I worked on Saturdays in a coffee shop and had to bring the milk up in a churn to the serving counter. What was not obvious is that it was full of powdered milk and water that I had mixed downstairs!

In the 60s whilst still at school, I worked part-time in a Lyons tea shop. The milk was delivered in churns from which we had to fill jugs for use on the tea bar. That was fresh milk, delivered by a local 'milkman', United Dairies I think. It may have been delivered from a small depot on the GEML opposite the western throat of the car sheds there because most milk deliveries were in glass bottles by then.

 

[randyrippley]

Going off-topic a bit, but my mother used to tell how locally around WWII the milk was delivered from one of the local farms by a cart pulled by a trained sheep.
The cart held a churn (or churns for maybe different grades) and was measured by jug to the customers own pots/jugs

 

[WesternLancer]

Going off-topic a bit, but my mother used to tell how locally around WWII the milk was delivered from one of the local farms by a cart pulled by a trained sheep.
The cart held a churn (or churns for maybe different grades) and was measured by jug to the customers own pots/jugs

Remarkable - where was that?

 

[randyrippley]

Remarkable - where was that?

South Somerset

 

[6Gman]

Going off-topic a bit, but my mother used to tell how locally around WWII the milk was delivered from one of the local farms by a cart pulled by a trained sheep.
The cart held a churn (or churns for maybe different grades) and was measured by jug to the customers own pots/jugs

Goats were also used in that way.

 

[Rescars]

As a slight aside, Snow1964 kindly posted this link in the recent thread about out-of-gauge traffic. https://www.railwaywondersoftheworld.com/takes-all.html . This piece, written in the mid 1930s, states that milk traffic on the railways at that time amounted to almost 200 million gallons annually. I make that 1,600,000,000 pints! Sadly no details about the proportion conveyed in churns though.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Be right in saying that milk tank railway wagons started to become more of a thing from the mid 1930s onwards?

 

[Gloster]

Be right in saying that milk tank railway wagons started to become more of a thing from the mid 1930s onwards?

The GWR and LMS started using them on 1 December 1927 (one service each initially), the LNER in September 1928 and the SR in October 1931. The SR’s first three wagons were the first to carry road trailers as the other railways’ had been fixed tanks; the SR’s service actually collected the wagons from Cole on the S&D. The number of tanks rapidly increased within a few years once a few teething problems were sorted out: for example, four-wheeled wagons did not ride so well and caused the milk to slosh about risking it turning into butter.

(Source: Southern Railway Passenger Vans, Gould, Oakwood, 1992.)

 

[Andy873]

The GWR and LMS started using them on 1 December 1927 (one service each initially), the LNER in September 1928 and the SR in October 1931. The SR’s first three wagons were the first to carry road trailers as the other railways’ had been fixed tanks; the SR’s service actually collected the wagons from Cole on the S&D. The number of tanks rapidly increased within a few years once a few teething problems were sorted out: for example, four-wheeled wagons did not ride so well and caused the milk to slosh about risking it turning into butter.

(Source: Southern Railway Passenger Vans, Gould, Oakwood, 1992.)

With milk wagons came a problem, large amounts of milk was needed to fill them and there was always a possibility that one churn might be infected with TB, still a major problem in the 1920's I believe. And it was sometime (I think) around then that milk was starting to be pasteurised on a large scale.

Regarding churns, I've looked through my 1956 freight WTT and there's no mention of any milk trains specifically around East Lancs. Going back either further to 1905, again no mention of milk in the WTT, however that only covers my old loop line which ran through dairy farm land. The two towns on it would have plenty of local milk available.

The same goes for all the photos of the East Lancs stations (1955-1965), no milk churns are to be seen, although milk deliveries are done early in the morning and they might have already been taken away.

 

[Gloster]

With milk wagons came a problem, large amounts of milk was needed to fill them and there was always a possibility that one churn might be infected with TB, still a major problem in the 1920's I believe. And it was sometime (I think) around then that milk was starting to be pasteurised on a large scale.

Regarding churns, I've looked through my 1956 freight WTT and there's no mention of any milk trains specifically around East Lancs. Going back either further to 1905, again no mention of milk in the WTT, however that only covers my old loop line which ran through dairy farm land. The two towns on it would have plenty of local milk available.

The same goes for all the photos of the East Lancs stations (1955-1965), no milk churns are to be seen, although milk deliveries are done early in the morning and they might have already been taken away.

On a line like the East Lancs loop there was probably never enough milk traffic to make it worth running trains specifically or primarily for milk: churns would have been carried in the normal passenger or parcels trains, in either an ordinary van or a special milk van. By the creation of British Railways milk trains largely consisted of bulk long-distance workings from creameries, which collected the milk from farmers and carried out a few tests, to bottling-plants in the major cities, mostly London. Any remaining use of churns was in a few locations where road access was difficult to a farm and the railway was a better choice, but this was rare.

Have a look at ‘The Daily Round’ on .player.bfi.org.uk, which gives a good idea of how milk traffic functioned in the 1950s, even though it has the trunk haul by road. A fascinating little film.

 

[Merle Haggard]

There was a big rail served dairy at Uttoxeter which, from memory, received/sent tanks that were attached to passenger trains including from the ex G.N. lines - just to make the point it wasn't limited to trunk main lines.

 

[6Gman]

Possibly the first time my interest in railways links up with my interest in cattle farming!

Bulk milk originated (not unreasonably) in areas which were particularly suitable for dairy farming but did not have a large nearby market for that milk.

So the big flows were from areas such as Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Shropshire, Cumbria and the like and largely to London.

So to take East Lancashire (mentioned above) it's not a particularly strong dairying industry and what it did produce would be easily sold to the nearby industrial towns.

Uttoxeter is an interesting one and I wonder whether the tanks were loaded inward or outward?

EDIT: I think it may have been inward as references found online suggest it was a creamery i.e. it converted liquid milk into butter, cream and condensed milk.

 

[Andy873]

On a line like the East Lancs loop there was probably never enough milk traffic to make it worth running trains specifically or primarily for milk

So to take East Lancashire (mentioned above) it's not a particularly strong dairying industry and what it did produce would be easily sold to the nearby industrial towns.

Yes, that was probably the situation there, I was simply looking at all the old photos to hand to see if I could spot a churn together with a date for that particular photo.

Have a look at ‘The Daily Round’ on .player.bfi.org.uk

Thanks, a very interesting watch.

Bulk milk originated (not unreasonably) in areas which were particularly suitable for dairy farming but did not have a large nearby market for that milk.

So the big flows were from areas such as Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Shropshire, Cumbria and the like and largely to London.

That makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Rescars]

Going back to the 1860s, Express Dairies was established as the as the Express County Milk Supply Co and so named because all its milk was conveyed (it claimed) by express trains (mainly GWR) from rural dairy farms to its bottling plant in west London. Rather healthier than trying to keep cattle in the city in less than ideal conditions, which had been the only option previously. A fine example of how the railways changed the way we live. Presumably all the milk was conveyed in churns back then. In what sort of vehicles I wonder. Does anyone know what a broad gauge milk van looked like?

 

[Gloster]

Going back to the 1860s, Express Dairies was established as the as the Express County Milk Supply Co and so named because all its milk was conveyed (it claimed) by express trains (mainly GWR) from rural dairy farms to its bottling plant in west London. Rather healthier than trying to keep cattle in the city in less than ideal conditions, which had been the only option previously. A fine example of how the railways changed the way we live. Presumably all the milk was conveyed in churns back then. In what sort of vehicles I wonder. Does anyone know what a broad gauge milk van looked like?

I believe that milk was carried in well-ventilated vehicles, probably originally open ones. to allow the passage of the air to slow the souring of the milk. Once it became a requirement to have the milk better protected (this may have been as far back as the 1870s) the churns were carried in vans. The earlest ones seem to mostly have had outside-framed bodies with what looks like every other plank of the sides missing. Later on they had full lower sides, but louvres along the upper half or third of the sides: Siphon G vans to this design lasted until the 1980s in other traffic. (This is rather a GWR orientated piece.)

There is information of LMS traffic on .steve-banks.org .

 

[Rescars]

I believe that milk was carried in well-ventilated vehicles, probably originally open ones. to allow the passage of the air to slow the souring of the milk. Once it became a requirement to have the milk better protected (this may have been as far back as the 1870s) the churns were carried in vans. The earlest ones seem to mostly have had outside-framed bodies with what looks like every other plank of the sides missing. Later on they had full lower sides, but louvres along the upper half or third of the sides: Siphon G vans to this design lasted until the 1980s in other traffic. (This is rather a GWR orientated piece.)

There is information of LMS traffic on .steve-banks.org .

Many thanks for this info. I didn't know that Siphon vans had such a long lineage.

 

[30907]

Back to BR days, the 1960 Carriage Workings for West of Salisbury have more references to Milk Vans than to Milk Tanks - that is probably a generic term, but it does suggest churn traffic might not have disappeared.

 

[6Gman]

Back to BR days, the 1960 Carriage Workings for West of Salisbury have more references to Milk Vans than to Milk Tanks - that is probably a generic term, but it does suggest churn traffic might not have disappeared.

Collection from farms would I suspect have been largely by churn in 1960. The switch to bulk tanks came I think from the mid-60s to the mid/late 70s.

 

[Gloster]

Back to BR days, the 1960 Carriage Workings for West of Salisbury have more references to Milk Vans than to Milk Tanks - that is probably a generic term, but it does suggest churn traffic might not have disappeared.

Collection from farms would I suspect have been largely by churn in 1960. The switch to bulk tanks came I think from the mid-60s to the mid/late 70s.

There was a Yeovil-Gravesend churn train until 1956: it may have been a victim of the 1955 strike. Churns were forwarded from Stewart’s Lane to the Kent Coast until the mid-1960s (I wonder if this was seasonal).

(Source: Gould, as above.)

Collection of milk in churns from farms ended on 1977 or 1978 (according to source).

 

[randyrippley]

There was a Yeovil-Gravesend churn train until 1956: it may have been a victim of the 1955 strike. Churns were forwarded from Stewart’s Lane to the Kent Coast until the mid-1960s (I wonder if this was seasonal).

Do you know from where in Yeovil? Aplin & Barrett (later United Dairies/Unigate aka St Ivel) had a creamery to the west of Yeovil on Bunford Lane (near Westlands airfield). Very close to the Yeovil-Taunton line, on which there were also two other dairies

I suspect what was the death knell for much milk rail transport was the growth of Wincanton Transport, which was United Dairies own road haulage company

 

[Gloster]

Do you know from where in Yeovil? Aplin & Barrett (later United Dairies/Unigate aka St Ivel) had a creamery to the west of Yeovil on Bunford Lane (near Westlands airfield). Very close to the Yeovil-Taunton line, on which there were also two other dairies

No idea, but Cooke and Pryer’s Track Layout Diagrams do not show any suitable siding in Yeovil. So either the vans were brought in from outlying locations such as Sparkford, Thorney & Kingsbury or Yetminster, or they were loaded in the stations: the latter wouldn’t be a problem as it was churns that could be brought in by road. I believe that Thorney & Kingsbury never handled tanks, but had an odd Sunday milk working to Yeovil.

 

[Karhedron]

I am currently writing a book about milk traffic on the railways and I can shed light on some of these questions. I don't claim that everything is definitive, one of the things I have discovered in my research is that milk traffic was rather poorly documented at the time and many records have subsequently been scattered as companies like Express Dairies and Unigate have been taken over, amalgamated and gone through the usual corporate restructuring.

Churn traffic declined steadily after the introduction of milk tanks in the late 1920s. Tanks were much less labour intensive to handle than churns and much more hygienic too. However churn traffic took a long time to die out as tanks could only be built so fast and creameries and depots at both ends needed to be updated or replaced to handle tanks. Churn traffic survived well in the BR days but started to drop off quickly after the ASLEF strike in 1955. Milk in churns spoiled faster than tanks and dairies were becoming less enthusiastic about outsourcing their transportation to the railways. In 1963, the Milk Marketing board and BR signed the "Western Agreement" which concentrated milk traffic into London on 3 main routes: South Wales, Cornwall (WR) and North Devon (SR). Within the next few years, milk traffic on the MR and ER was wound up and residual churn traffic also ended around this time (although there was very little left by this point). The last use of churns on the railways I have been able to find was in 1966 when cream was transported in churns in the Guard's compartments of EMUs from CWS Stewart's Lane to the Kent Coast resorts on the Isle of Thanet (apparently for making cream cakes).

East Lancashire was not prime dairy country as far as I know and I have not been able to find any records of rail-served dairies in the area. Any churn traffic would likely have been local and ad-hoc.

According to my notes, Thorney & Kingsbury did handle tank traffic as well as churns. In Nestle days, it used to dispatch up to 6 tanks of milk per day to London as well as churn traffic to the Medway (although I am not quite sure what for, some people have speculated it was to do with the Navy at Chatham but I have never found a definite answer). Thorney & Kingsbury was sold by Nestle to the MMB in 1961 who quickly switched it from rail to road transport.

 

[randyrippley]

FWIW I came across an online map this week which indicated the rail link to the Aplin & Barrett Bunford Lane creamery was actually closed in 1937. Up to 1935 the building had actually been a flax works, so I suspect it never received milk by rail.
The main Aplin & Barrett plant was on Newton Road, Yeovil - and closed by Unigate in 1976. It was adjacent to Yeovil Town station, but that seemed to be more related to distributing it's cheeses and potted meats by rail rather than milk. Certainly it would have been able to receive churns from the nearby goods yard, but there was no direct rail access for milk tanks. After the station closed, the rationale for the factory location would have disappeared.
So all you can take from this is locally road tank transport of milk was probably in use by 1937.