Milton Keynes Liverpool Off Peak

[Wirral]

Looking at Travelling out from Milton Keynes on a Friday afternoon, ticket is off peak eg 4.40. Looking at the trains back from Liverpool Lime Street on a Monday the 5.27 is peak. However the same train stops at Rugby that is off peak. Spoke to virgin and got no sense at 10 pence a minute call charge. Can I use the off peak return to Rugby that is still off peak. I will then buy a single to complete the journey.

The question is on Virgin trains to the North West, if you travel off peak out and most of the journey is off peak back can you get off the train early at the last off peak station. The problem I see is that the 5.27 that goes to Milton Keynes that I will have the return portion for will be peak whilst travelling to Rugby wont.

Given the train times and other commitments I could travel from Rugby and get a return to Rugby but that is not practicle in this situation.

 

[GPR]

Interesting one.
Look forward to the replies.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The Milton Keynes Central-Liverpool Stns Off Peak Return 'Rte Any Permitted' (£58.00) is restriction code 9I (Outward not valid on trains timed to depart between 0430 and 0950 inclusive. Return not valid on trains timed to arrive between 0639 and 1047 inclusive). The restriction applies to the ticket, so it would not be valid to stop short at Rugby on that service.

 

[crosscity]

I can't answer your actual question, but would think the answer is 'No'.

However if you buy
1) A Milton Keynes-Rugby Off-Peak Day Single (£11.10) for Fri and
2) A Rugby-Liv LSt Off Peak return (£44.70) starting Fri and
3) A Rugby-Milton Keynes Anytime Day Single (£12.60) for Mon.
(Total 68.40) You can almost do it!
You can buy all the tickets before you go.


You would have to catch the 16:25 from MKC and change at Stafford (it calls at Rugby) and arrive in Liverpool at 19:22 which means leaving a little earlier and arriving a little later. You would be able to return on the 5:27 as planned.

Compare the price with the MKC-Liverpool Off-peak return of £58.00.

Hope this helps

 

[Wirral]

Very useful replies, thank you for your assistance.

 

[John @ home]

on Virgin trains to the North West, if you travel off peak out and most of the journey is off peak back can you get off the train early at the last off peak station.

It depends on the precise wording of the ticket restriction. For a £58 Off-Peak Return Milton Keynes C - Liverpool L St, the restriction is 9I and the part if that relevant to Milton Keynes is:

These restrictions apply MONDAY to FRIDAY. By any train on other days.

OUTWARD TRAVEL: You may travel on any train that is scheduled to depart MILTON KEYNES CENTRAL before 0430 and at or after 0951.

RETURN TRAVEL: You may travel on any train that is scheduled to arrive MILTON KEYNES CENTRAL before 0639 or at or after 1048.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_9I.pdf

The 1640 from Milton Keynes is permitted with an Off-Peak Return, but the 0527 from Liverpool is not because it is due to arrive Milton Keynes at 0712. The wording of the restriction means that you cannot travel Mon - Fri on the 0527 from Liverpool for any part of that train's journey.

You are right to point out that the £44.70 Off-Peak Return Rugby - Liverpool L St, has minimal restriction 2T:

OUTWARD TRAVEL: By any train except those timed to depart Mondays-Fridays before 0415.

RETURN TRAVEL: By any train except those timed to depart Mondays-Fridays before 0415.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_2T.pdf

But this ticket cannot be combined with a Rugby - Milton Keynes Single or Return ticket on a service which does not call at Rugby and, although the 0527 calls at Rugby the 1640 does not.

If it really is essential that you use these two trains, and you don't want to pay the Milton Keynes C - Liverpool L St Anytime Return price of £197, two suggestions are:

• if you're planning any other significant travel on that route within 7 days, buy a £199.30 Milton Keynes C - Liverpool L St 7-day Season Ticket. This is valid for unlimited travel over a wide range of routes in the Midlands, Merseyside and Greater Manchester.
• if not, buy a £61.40 Milton Keynes C - Rugby 7-day Season Ticket and a £44.70 Off-Peak Return Rugby - Liverpool L St, a total of £106.10. Unlike a combination of Single or Return tickets, one Season Ticket may be combined with one or more other tickets on a train which does not call at a station where you change from one ticket to another. See NRCoC Condition 19.

EDIT You may be interested to know that the £58 Wolverton - Liverpool Off-Peak Return, which also has restriction 9I, is in effect valid by any train which avoids doubling back through Milton Keynes C. Search for "Wolverton - Liverpool avoiding Milton Keynes". It allows, for example,

Friday: 1733 Wolverton - 1817 Rugby 1823 - Liverpool L St 1952.
Monday: 0527 Liverpool L St - 0652 Rugby 0712 - Wolverton 0751.

2nd EDIT Even better, East Coast will sell you a £58 Wolverton - Liverpool Off-Peak Return with reservations for the Friday 1640 Milton Keynes C - Liverpool L St and Monday 0527 Liverpool L St - Rugby. If you use this ticket Milton Keynes C - Liverpool L St - Rugby and also buy the £12.60 Rugby-Milton Keynes Single suggested by crosscity in post #4, you'll be able to travel on the trains you proposed for £70.60. You don't need to start from Wolverton, but I would print and carry a copy of the journey itinerary in case you're challenged.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Another alternative (and you may need to pluck up some courage for this one) if you are not rushed for time, is to get the 0643 from the Merseyrail platform at Lime Street to Chester and then the 0735 to Rugby. Neither of these trains call at Milton Keynes between 0639 and 1047. The down side would be that you wouldn't get to Rugby until 0846. You would need a new ticket to get to Milton Keynes from there though, or wait for a train that gets there after 1047.

 

[maniacmartin]

Just to reiterate the advice above, my interpretation is that the restriction code applies to the ticket not the part of the ticket being used, so if it refers to trains "scheduled to arrive at Milton Keynes" then you cannot use this on a train scheduled to arrive at Milton Keynes at the specified times, even if you aren't travelling as far as Milton Keynes on that ticket.

 

[John @ home]

my interpretation is that the restriction code applies to the ticket not the part of the ticket being used, so if it refers to trains "scheduled to arrive at Milton Keynes" then you cannot use this on a train scheduled to arrive at Milton Keynes at the specified times

The interpretation used by the East Coast site (and presumably by the other WebTIS sites) seems to be that the restriction applies to the journey. Presumably, that is why it is content to offer a Wolverton - Liverpool SVR together with a reservation on 0527 Liverpool L St - Rugby 0712 and an itinerary for travel via Northampton.

If, instead, you ask for "Wolverton - Liverpool via Milton Keynes", the 0527 train is still offered with the £197 SOR but not with the £58 SVR. The itinerary provided using the 0527 with the £58 ticket does not go to or via any of the stations listed in restriction 9I. East Coast interprets 9I to mean that the ticket is unrestricted by that route (via Northampton).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm not yet aware of a journey planner that deals with stopping or starting short (nevermind BoJ), so, for the purposes of journey planners, the use of the words 'journey' and 'ticket' are interchangeable, imo, with regards to the restrictions.

 

[John @ home]

I'm not yet aware of a journey planner that deals with stopping or starting short

What is there to deal with regarding stopping or starting short in this instance? If

• the full Wolverton - Milton Keynes - Rugby - Liverpool and Liverpool - Rugby - Northampton - Wolverton journey is allowed by the valid travel itinerary at the point of sale, and
• Restriction 9I makes clear that break of journey is allowed on either or both legs of the journey, allowing Wolverton - Milton Keynes - Rugby - Liverpool and Liverpool - Rugby - (break)

then NRCoC Condition 16 tells the passenger that "you may ... end your journey ... before the destination shown on the ticket".

 

[hairyhandedfool]

What I mean is, if you had a Liverpool-Milton Keynes ticket but wanted to stop short at Rugby, then putting in Liverpool-Rugby in the journey planner may not give the correct information because it will assume the ticket is to Rugby.

 

[John @ home]

if you had a Liverpool-Milton Keynes ticket but wanted to stop short at Rugby, then putting in Liverpool-Rugby in the journey planner may not give the correct information because it will assume the ticket is to Rugby.

Agreed. You need to enter Liverpool - Milton Keynes via Rugby and then search for suitable journey opportunities.

Or perhaps be a little more creative ...

 

[Wirral]

all very useful, going to be a busy weekend.

Have just tried Wolverton Liverpool Lime street on east coast website and avoid milton keynes and can not see the £58 option. Will try again tonight.

 

[John @ home]

Have just tried Wolverton Liverpool Lime street on east coast website and avoid milton keynes and can not see the £58 option.

Don't enter "avoid Milton Keynes". The itinerary I suggest does that in one direction only.

I'll post the detailed itinerary overnight - not easy to re-create on this mobile, I'm afraid.

 

[crosscity]

2nd EDIT Even better, East Coast will sell you a £58 Wolverton - Liverpool Off-Peak Return with reservations for the Friday 1640 Milton Keynes C - Liverpool L St and Monday 0527 Liverpool L St - Rugby. If you use this ticket Milton Keynes C - Liverpool L St - Rugby and also buy the £12.60 Rugby-Milton Keynes Single suggested by crosscity in post #4, you'll be able to travel on the trains you proposed for £70.60. You don't need to start from Wolverton, but I would print and carry a copy of the journey itinerary in case you're challenged.

I am also interested in how John @ home has done this. I have tried both the East Coast and London Midland websites (they appear to use the same booking engine). On both the outward is as he says, via Milton Keynes, but the first train on the return for the £58 ticket is 9:13 off Liverpool.