Missed connection due to delay - no refund for new ticket

[Robski_]

On the 4th of September, I was travelling from Manchester Piccadilly to Stevenage via London. I had an advance ticket for the 18:35 from Manchester to Euston, and another advance for the 21:33 from Kings Cross to Stevenage (operated by LNER, scheduled to arrive 21:54) - this is a recognised itinerary by National Rail. The 18:35 was delayed leaving Manchester as it broke down on its inbound working. It continued to lose time and arrived into Euston at 21:33, 49 minutes behind schedule and bang on the same time as my connection was leaving.

I proceeded to walk to Kings Cross to speak with someone from LNER to re-route me, as the 21:33 was the last LNER train from Kings Cross to Stevenage. I arrived at the station at 21:45 to find the LNER ticket office locked shut - it is advertised to close at 22:00 on the LNER website. The only staff present on the concourse were one staff member from Govia Thameslink Railway and two Fusion People rent-a-thugs. The GTR staff member immediately denied any assistance after seeing that the ticket is an LNER advance, stating that it's a different company and that I had to buy a new ticket. I wasn't particularly happy about this, so I managed to get to platform 0 where the 22:00 to Newcastle was leaving from. There was an LNER dispatcher there who, to his credit, did get me to the GTR station supervisor.

The GTR station supervisor offered an alternative route in the form of the 22:27 from Kings Cross to Cambridge (arriving into Stevenage at 23:08). I advised him that there was a train leaving St Pancras at 22:16 to Peterborough which would get me there much quicker, arriving into Stevenage at 22:43, and that the 22:27 would incur a delay of over 60 minutes as it is a stopping train (It ended up running late as well). The supervisor said he "did not have the authority" to re-route me via St Pancras and that I'd need to buy a new ticket and claim a refund.

At this point, all I wanted to do was get home. So I paid £11.55 for a new ticket (nearly twice what I paid for the LNER advance) to travel from St Pancras to Stevenage.

Fast forward to today, and Govia Thameslink Railway have refused to refund me £11.55 as they seem to have a different interpretation of Article 15 of the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulations 2010 (PROR). My understanding and application of it in this case is that because waiting for the next LNER service would incur a delay of 521 minutes, which is more than 60 minutes, I should have been re-routed at the earliest possible opportunity - This, in my opinion, is by using the 22:16 from St Pancras. Govia Thameslink Railway claim that their offer of travelling on the 22:27 was reasonable (despite the fact that taking it would delay me by over 60 minutes) and deny any claim made by the station supervisor that I'd get my money back.

I have since responded to them asking again to refund me, but I am not optimistic - I have also now added on a £120 administration fee, which I doubt I'll get but it's worth a shot.

I have also complained to LNER about the failure to staff Kings Cross according to the advertised times but have not received a response yet.

What are my options should GTR refuse again? I know operators are extremely reluctant to abide by PROR, but the way I was treated by the GTR staff was awful and so I want to get my money back.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem you may have here is that you had a non contiguous split - your rights when you split across London in that way are at best rather unclear, which is why Trainsplit traditionally wouldn't sell a split of this nature (though I believe it now will if you explicitly ask for it, and it does give a warning about this).

What you could do, though, is use that to your advantage and claim Delay Repay on the Avanti ticket alone - does that cover your losses? That is probably the lowest friction option available to you even if you may be able to get it treated as a single journey with considerably more faffing and debate.

You aren't going to get £120 admin fee out of them and this will just make you look silly.

 

[island]

I would agree with Bletchleyite – as there was a "gap" in the middle not covered by any ticket, you had two separate journeys and there was no re-routing obligation. Even if you were entitled to be rerouted, which you were not, your claim would need to go to LNER, who you were due to travel with, rather than GTR.

You have a claim with Avanti for DelayRepay. The cheapest Avanti advance from Manchester to Euston – I infer that you have a Railcard from the amount you say you paid for your replacement ticket – would give you £9.25 DelayRepay at 50%, and I suspect you'll likely be getting more than that given Avanti's very low allocation on the cheapest price tiers. Edit to add: I subsequently noted that the ticket held was standard premium, which means the payout will be at least £17.50.

Your request for a £120 "admin fee" will generate a laugh for whoever reads your letter, but nothing else.

 

[Haywain]

Fast forward to today, and Govia Thameslink Railway have refused to refund me £11.55 as they seem to have a different interpretation of Article 15 of the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulations 2010 (PROR). My understanding and application of it in this case is that because waiting for the next LNER service would incur a delay of 521 minutes, which is more than 60 minutes, I should have been re-routed at the earliest possible opportunity - This, in my opinion, is by using the 22:16 from St Pancras. Govia Thameslink Railway claim that their offer of travelling on the 22:27 was reasonable (despite the fact that taking it would delay me by over 60 minutes) and deny any claim made by the station supervisor that I'd get my money back.

A more comprehensive answer may be available from @Watershed but I don't see how GTR or LNER bore any responsibility under PRO. Rerouting is the responsibility of the party who cause the delay, which was Avanti but as you had separate and non-contiguous tickets it isn't clear that even they needed to do anything. What GTR did need to do was get you home according to the terms of the NRCoT, which they offered to do - although them seeing St Pancras as on a separate route is slightly odd.

 

[Robski_]

Looks like I am going to have to concede then. I do admit that my admin fee comment was a bit cheeky (more "in the heat of the moment"), but I find it very annoying that despite holding a valid itinerary I am not entitled to either get a refund on my original LNER fare or get a refund on the new ticket, despite this being promised by the station supervisor, for the comical reason of me choosing to walk between Euston and Kings Cross instead of using the tube. I'm surprised that the NRE database does not list a "WALK" transfer between Euston and Kings Cross - I assumed it did because they are on the same road!

 

[skyhigh]

I find it very annoying that despite holding a valid itinerary

Did you buy both tickets in the same transaction with an itinerary supplied by the retailer?

 

[Robski_]

Did you buy both tickets in the same transaction with an itinerary supplied by the retailer?

The itinerary was supplied by National Rail. The tickets were bought separately as I travelled in Standard Premium and no retailer would offer Std Premium MAN->LON, Std LON->SVG. The point was the route (and the connection) was officially recognised - but now I know it isn't possible to walk from Euston to Kings Cross.

 

[Southern Beau]

Looks like I am going to have to concede then. I do admit that my admin fee comment was a bit cheeky (more "in the heat of the moment"), but I find it very annoying that despite holding a valid itinerary I am not entitled to either get a refund on my original LNER fare or get a refund on the new ticket, despite this being promised by the station supervisor, for the comical reason of me choosing to walk between Euston and Kings Cross instead of using the tube. I'm surprised that the NRE database does not list a "WALK" transfer between Euston and Kings Cross - I assumed it did because they are on the same road!

During an exchange with TPE and Avanti where neither party would accept responsibility for my disruption/refund (over a 6 week period), I did send an email to both orgs saying any further email from me to chase them would be charged at £xx.

Surprisingly no further emails were need as both companies made contact and satisfied my requests within days!

No idea of the “admin cost” helped, but I got nowhere for 6 weeks and then sudden progress!

 

[AlterEgo]

The itinerary was supplied by National Rail. The tickets were bought separately as I travelled in Standard Premium and no retailer would offer Std Premium MAN->LON, Std LON->SVG. The point was the route (and the connection) was officially recognised - but now I know it isn't possible to walk from Euston to Kings Cross.

And, to be certain, neither of your tickets included Zone 1?

 

[Watershed]

I'm afraid when you assume... well, I won't finish the sentence!

It's certainly a harsh position but legally speaking I concur with others in that, having an unticketed break in your journey, there is every argument to say they were separate journeys and thus neither Avanti, GTR nor LNER had any obligation to assist you.

The most pragmatic thing to do would have been to either buy one of your tickets to/from London Underground Zone 1, or to change your LNER Advance to a walkup ticket before your booked departure. The latter is possible fee-free (paying just the fare difference) if you use the right retailer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The most pragmatic thing to do would have been to either buy one of your tickets to/from London Underground Zone 1, or to change your LNER Advance to a walkup ticket before your booked departure. The latter is possible fee-free (paying just the fare difference) if you use the right retailer.

Though officially the latter doesn't remove the TOC restriction. However some retailers do "refund and replace" which would remove it. I don't know if the ones doing that are the same as the ones who don't charge the admin fee for it!

 

[Starmill]

Though officially the latter doesn't remove the TOC restriction. However some retailers do "refund and replace" which would remove it. I don't know if the ones doing that are the same as the ones who don't charge the admin fee for it!

There is at least one, because trainline sites do that, one of which is CrossCountry who will allow the free amendment.

The itinerary was supplied by National Rail. The tickets were bought separately as I travelled in Standard Premium and no retailer would offer Std Premium MAN->LON, Std LON->SVG. The point was the route (and the connection) was officially recognised - but now I know it isn't possible to walk from Euston to Kings Cross.

It would have been useful if you could have asked this question before making initial contact, as you would have been advised then that you had a valid claim against Avanti West Coast. Was your arrival at Stevenage delayed over an hour against the booked time in the end? Even if not, half of your Standard Premium advance plus the London to Stevenage advance would have been a sensible amount.

 

[miklcct]

What you could do, though, is use that to your advantage and claim Delay Repay on the Avanti ticket alone - does that cover your losses? That is probably the lowest friction option available to you even if you may be able to get it treated as a single journey with considerably more faffing and debate.

If the Avanti ticket was an Advance the Delay Repay compensation might only be a fraction of £11.55, as the delay was only 30-59 minutes.

 

[island]

If the Avanti ticket was an Advance the Delay Repay compensation might only be a fraction of £11.55, as the delay was only 30-59 minutes.

The OP said they had a standard premium advance from Manchester to Euston. The cheapest such ticket is £34.95 with a Railcard and as such the Delay Repay claim will be at least £17.50.

 

[Robski_]

And, to be certain, neither of your tickets included Zone 1?

Nope.

The most pragmatic thing to do would have been to either buy one of your tickets to/from London Underground Zone 1, or to change your LNER Advance to a walkup ticket before your booked departure. The latter is possible fee-free (paying just the fare difference) if you use the right retailer.

It was booked direct via LNER. WiFi on the Avanti train was also very poor, so changing the ticket would not have been possible (I also didn't expect to miss the connection - when leaving Manchester we were expected into Euston only 25 minutes late). I now know that a Zone 1 to Stevenage ticket would have covered the 800 metre gap.

It would have been useful if you could have asked this question before making initial contact, as you would have been advised then that you had a valid claim against Avanti West Coast. Was your arrival at Stevenage delayed over an hour against the booked time in the end? Even if not, half of your Standard Premium advance plus the London to Stevenage advance would have been a sensible amount.

Using the new ticket, I arrived 48 minutes late (planned 21:54, actual 22:42 (1 min early)). Had I taken the route offered by the KGX supervisor, I would have arrived 83 minutes late and possibly had my car locked in the station car park due to overnight roadworks. Avanti have already paid out automatically for the Manchester to London leg, and because of the way the tickets were booked - the ticket to London was bought from Avanti by a friend I was travelling with (I paid them, before anyone asks!), and I booked my ticket via LNER from London as I was travelling alone from there - it was seen as too difficult to combine the tickets in the claim. This is also why the tickets were not bought together. The Avanti DR does cover my losses though, so I guess that's one upside.

The next questions aren't strictly related to my case, and are quite unlikely, but got me thinking:

1. If someone had bought two advance tickets from Luton Airport to Stevenage via London (EMR to St Pancras, LNER to Stevenage), what would happen there? Officially, the transfer from St Pancras to Kings Cross is on foot, so you can't hold a ticket for that leg, so if the EMR train ran late would there be no re-routing obligation? Or does the recognition of the transfer between the two being on foot mean that re-routing is protected?
2. The connection between Charing Cross and Blackfriars is a fixed link listed as "TRANSFER" with no preferred mode. If I had an open ticket to Blackfriars and an advance from Charing Cross (e.g. Peterborough to Ashford Intl.), how would that work if the train to Blackfriars is sufficiently delayed to miss the connection? Walking is allowed as the transfer does not specify a mode, so a ticket may not be needed - but one can be bought. It is possible to generate such an itinerary - albeit very difficult! You need to set the journey planner to go via Charing Cross and avoid Kings Cross.

 

[father_jack]

Would the OP have been helped if they had added "Zone U1" to the Manchester to Euston ticket ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would the OP have been helped if they had added "Zone U1" to the Manchester to Euston ticket ?

The staff may not have acted any differently (I suspect they probably wouldn't have), but the OP would clearly have a journey made up of multiple contiguous tickets and thus found it easier to have the situation regularised later.

On the other hand, Delay Repay applies to the journey rather than the individual ticket (you can often get away with claiming it by ticket, but if you purchase an itinerary on something like Trainsplit then that probably looks a bit suspicious), so the OP may not actually have got as much money back because cross London itineraries tend to have a very large amount of padding.

 

[Starmill]

so the OP may not actually have got as much money back because cross London itineraries tend to have a very large amount of padding.

The OP states their journey plan took account of all of the relevant interchange time, so that wouldn't have affected the outcome of this case.

The staff may not have acted any differently (I suspect they probably wouldn't have), but the OP would clearly have a journey made up of multiple contiguous tickets and thus found it easier to have the situation regularised later.

I agree with this. The OP would have been able to claim compensation far more readily in respect of the combined value of their first and second tickets. They could still try to pursue this but I wouldn't rate their chances of success if so, and they sensibly point out above that it would be very difficult. Furthermore, if they'd spoke to Avanti West Coast staff at London Euston, or by phone or social media, and they then declined to arrange either for the OP to be carried by Thameslink, or provided some other alternative, they would have also had a relevant claim against Avanti West Coast for the price of the additional ticket to get them home.