Missed tap-in at Farringdon after arriving via ThamesLink with a paper ticket

[nileshtr]

• I have been in London & UK for almost 6 months. Wanted to make a day trip to Brighton which would be my first trip out of London.
• I booked online ticket of London Bridge to Brighton via Thameslink website.
• In the morning, took the tube from Harrow-on-the-Hill to Finchley road, then changed to Jubilee to reach London bridge. Tap-in & tap-out with contactless card as normal.
• Collected my paper tickets from the ticket machine at the London Bridge station.
• Reached Brighton without any troubles, and had a really good day at the beach.
• While returning from Brighton to London in the evening train, realized that it would be more convenient for me to get down at Farringdon station, because I could then directly take the Metropolitan line to Harrow-on-the-Hill.
• At Farringdon station, found that there was direct access (no barricades or card tap-in required) between the Thameslink platform and London Underground platform (Metropolitan line). I was puzzled at this, because this would mean I would be tapping out at Harrow but without a tap-in.
• I assumed the system would at worst charge me the fair for zone-1 to my exit zone which would make no difference.
• At Harrow, I was able to tap out with my contactless debit card and exit.
• At home, I checked my online TFL account and noticed that the entry said "Unknown to Harrow-on-the-Hill" (as expected). The warning message is: "At the moment we have no record of where you touched in/out for at least one of your journeys today. Please check your journey & payment history again tomorrow."
• I googled for this problem and then discovered that Farringdon apparently has a standalone card reader for people arriving via NR with paper tickets. Too bad that I did not spot this or realize such a thing existed.
• I am now worried about being accused of fare evasion and being forced to pay the penalty.

Did I do something wrong? Will I be charged the maximum fare or a penalty for the missing tap-in? I have the paper tickets as proof, so, in either case (maximum fare or penalty), can I appeal and explain this story to wave the excess charges?

 

[MikeWh]

Did I do something wrong? Will I be charged the maximum fare or a penalty for the missing tap-in? I have the paper tickets as proof, so, in either case (maximum fare or penalty), can I appeal and explain this story to wave the excess charges?

Yes you did, but you won't be prosecuted. You might be able to complete the missing touch tomorrow online. This will cause a refund between the maximum fare and the single from Farringdon to Harrow. For future reference there are validators at various points between the s/b Thameslink platform and the w/b tube platform. If the system won't let you resolve the missing touch then gve the helpline a call and they should be able to deal with it.

Potentially more worrying is which ticket you held for the Brighton trip. Was it London Thameslink to Brighton or London Terminals to Brigton? Both are valid at London Bridge but only the Thameslink one is valid at Farringdon. There's no need to worry about it now though.

 

[nileshtr]

Thanks @MikeWh. Will try completing the missing touch tomorrow.

I had booked a return ticket for the Brighton trip and it said "London Terminals", but while returning from Brighton, I was told that it's valid for all trains. So I took the one that was an hour earlier than what I had originally booked. The one I returned by, was going to stop at Farringdon which created this entire situation.

 

[MikeWh]

OK. London Terminals is valid to (deep breath) Victoria, Waterloo, Vauxhall, Charing Cross, Waterloo East, London Bridge, Cannon Street, Blackfriars and City Thameslink.
London Thameslink is valid to London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon and St Pancras International.

Both tickets are valid on any trains as far as City Thameslink (including Southern to London Bridge).

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks @MikeWh. Will try completing the missing touch tomorrow.

I had booked a return ticket for the Brighton trip and it said "London Terminals", but while returning from Brighton, I was told that it's valid for all trains. So I took the one that was an hour earlier than what I had originally booked. The one I returned by, was going to stop at Farringdon which created this entire situation.

You should be more concerned that you travelled without a valid ticket, then. A ticket to London Terminals is not valid beyond City Thameslink in the northbound direction. It is a very minor mistake but one which can end up with your being Penalty Fared, or worse, threatened with prosecution. Careful!

More info on this not-particularly-intuitive situation here: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-london.aspx

 

[Western Sunset]

You should be more concerned that you travelled without a valid ticket, then. A ticket to London Terminals is not valid beyond City Thameslink in the northbound direction. It is a very minor mistake but one which can end up with your being Penalty Fared, or worse, threatened with prosecution. Careful!

More info on this not-particularly-intuitive situation here: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-london.aspx

Yet the map on the website mentioned shows that coming from the south one can travel as far as St Pancras (as well as Farringdon). Or am I misreading it?

 

[MikeWh]

Or am I misreading it?

Yes. The station blobs are either green for terminals, red for thameslink or half red half green if both are valid.

 

[talltim]

.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It’s a stupid name as some of the terminals are not terminals.

Bring back London BR

 

[Western Sunset]

Yes. The station blobs are either green for terminals, red for thameslink or half red half green if both are valid.

Thanks Mike.
To be honest, I couldn't differentiate between the dots. Seems like it's making a trap for the unwary...

 

[Haywain]

Bring back London BR

I can remember it being London (SR) from the south.

 

[yorkie]

I had booked a return ticket for the Brighton trip and it said "London Terminals", but while returning from Brighton, I was told that it's valid for all trains.

You were told by GTR staff at Brighton that a London Terminals ticket from there is valid to Farringdon?

Out of interest, what was the price you paid and what was the route printed on the ticket?

 

[dastocks]

A quick check suggests that London Terminals, Farringdon, or London Thameslink to Brighton day returns for travel this weekend are all the same price (£13.70). There aren't any trains to/from Victoria this weekend so Thameslink is effectively the only show in town for travel to/from Brighton.

In the other direction I always make sure I buy a ticket to Farringdon (usually I'm going to the Barbican) because it doesn't cost any more and I might forget to bail-out at City Thameslink!

 

[island]

You did not have a valid ticket from when you left City Thameslink, but it’s too late for that to be picked up on. As others mention, you will be able to resolve the missing touch via the TfL website or phone line, most probably from tomorrow.

 

[Wallsendmag]

All trains is very different to any destination

 

[pelli]

Potentially more worrying is which ticket you held for the Brighton trip. Was it London Thameslink to Brighton or London Terminals to Brigton? Both are valid at London Bridge but only the Thameslink one is valid at Farringdon.

You should be more concerned that you travelled without a valid ticket, then. A ticket to London Terminals is not valid beyond City Thameslink in the northbound direction.

Well spotted, that's very important to point out to help avoid future accidental ticketless travel! But for what happened here, given that the OP travelled a significant distance (Farringdon to Harrow-on-the-Hill) without a valid ticket, I don't think it makes it significantly *more* of a problem that they were also ticketless on the short hop between City Thameslink and Farringdon

When calling the TfL helpline, if the OP states that their contactless journey started at City Thameslink instead of at Farringdon (which have the same fares to Harrow-On-The-Hill anyway), then their entire journey will be officially covered. (But it doesn't really matter if they state Farringdon as nobody is going to scrutinise and cross-reference their past travel and ticket records to prosecute them retrospectively.)

By the way, when processing the refund, does the TfL helpline adjust the journey history record to reflect the journey stated by the passenger, or do they just calculate the refund due and insert a manual balance adjustment while leaving the incomplete journey unchanged in the records? My impression from another recent thread was that the latter happened, as the charge for the corrected journeys did not contribute to daily capping, but apparently procedure was not correctly followed in that case.

 

[miklcct]

Thanks Mike.
To be honest, I couldn't differentiate between the dots. Seems like it's making a trap for the unwary...

The OP is lucky that he wasn't get caught ticketless travel between City Thameslink and Farringdon, and Farringdon to Harrow-on-the-Hill.

This case again shows how complicated the ticketing system here is, and how many tourists are likely to be trapped.

1. At some stations the long-distance National Rail station and Underground station are separate but at others they are within the same gate, or even the same platform. As the OP have never left London before, and he left it using London Bridge, the fact that they are separate gave an impression that the Underground and long-distance National Rail are separate networks with separate ticketing system.

In fact, what the OP should take note is that, there are ticketing systems on the railways with overlapping validity
- "TfL paper tickets" valid on Underground and DLR only, which virtually no one uses now
- "National Rail paper tickets" which are valid on both local and long-distance National Rail services, but on Underground and DLR unless specified on the ticket, or on a limited set of interavailable services (including the Thameslink core)
- "Oyster and contactless" which are valid across DLR, Underground and National Rail but can only be used within the specified area (zones 1 - 9 plus a few extra)

2. The name "London Terminals" is misleading. There aren't intrinsic differences between City Thameslink and Farringdon - both en-route in the Thameslink core, but the ticket is only valid to the former but not the latter. Also the case between Queenstown Road (Battersea) and Vauxhall as well where none of them are terminals, but Vauxhall is a London Terminal station.

3. It is possible to buy a single / return ticket with origin "Harrow on the Hill" to destination "Brighton". Such ticket will be issued as an Underground zones 1-6 to Brighton, which the OP can use on the Metropolitan line to Farringdon and transfer to Brighton on the same ticket, or to Victoria / London Bridge / any other interchange station with trains to Brighton. However, it may be cheaper or more expensive than switching tickets at the interchange station depending on the route and the ticket combination.

 

[nileshtr]

Update:

I was charged the maximum fare of 6£ on the next day but I was able to add the missing tap-in (Farringdon) and got a refund of £2.60 almost immediately.

My Thameslink ticket not being valid beyond City Thameslink is a complete surprise. Thanks for the tip, Mike and others.

You were told by GTR staff at Brighton that a London Terminals ticket from there is valid to Farringdon?

Out of interest, what was the price you paid and what was the route printed on the ticket?

I paid 27£ of the return trip from London Bridge to Brighton for 3 people. This was marked as "Super Off-Peak Day Return (GroupSave)".

The tickets I collected from the ticket machine said "From London Terminals to Brighton" and "From Brighton to London Terminals".

GTR Staff didn't say that the ticket was valid till Farringdon, only that I could board any Thameslink train. I took the one destined for Bedford and after boarding, realized that Farringdon would be more convenient.

 

[Watershed]

I paid 27£ of the return trip from London Bridge to Brighton for 3 people. This was marked as "Super Off-Peak Day Return (GroupSave)".

The tickets I collected from the ticket machine said "From London Terminals to Brighton" and "From Brighton to London Terminals".

GTR Staff didn't say that the ticket was valid till Farringdon, only that I could board any Thameslink train. I took the one destined for Bedford and after boarding, realized that Farringdon would be more convenient.

Ah, in that case you would have been sold this fare (×3). An identically priced fare is also available from London Thameslink, with a printed restriction of "Not Underground" rather than "Thameslink only"; the latter fare would have covered you as far north as St Pancras.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Out of curiosity, what became of the other two people? Left the train at London Bridge I suppose.

 

[methethpropbut]

Out of curiosity, what became of the other two people? Left the train at London Bridge I suppose.

Wouldn't that be yet another infringement? Since Groupsave requires the entire group to travel together at all times, and evidently that was not the case between London Bridge and Farringdon..

 

[boiledbeans2]

By the way, when processing the refund, does the TfL helpline adjust the journey history record to reflect the journey stated by the passenger, or do they just calculate the refund due and insert a manual balance adjustment while leaving the incomplete journey unchanged in the records? My impression from another recent thread was that the latter happened, as the charge for the corrected journeys did not contribute to daily capping, but apparently procedure was not correctly followed in that case.

Latter. I have had maximum journey times exceeded a few times recently.

The person asked for my journey details, calculated the correct fare, then checked daily capping. Then made a refund of the right amount without amending the original journey details.