MML Electrification should be a higher priority - just get it done

[GRALISTAIR]

Well I don’t want to be political but the fact the MML is not fully electrified including Leicester, Loughborough, Derby, Nottingham, Chesterfield and Sheffield in a climate crisis as well is an absolute embarrassment and disgrace. Just get it done.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Well I don’t want to be political but the fact the MML is not fully electrified including Leicester, Loughborough, Derby, Nottingham, Chesterfield and Sheffield in a climate crisis as well is an absolute embarrassment and disgrace. Just get it done.

This 100%

 

[Class360/1]

Well I don’t want to be political but the fact the MML is not fully electrified including Leicester, Loughborough, Derby, Nottingham, Chesterfield and Sheffield in a climate crisis as well is an absolute embarrassment and disgrace. Just get it done.

Well said

 

[Verulamius]

Q115 during Grant Shapps questioning by the Commons Transport select committee.

Gavin Newlands: You say in the plan that there has been a huge acceleration of electrification. In the last 10 years there has been 4% of track electrified in England and about 9% in Scotland. The main question is: when will we hear the announcement of the next electrification programme as part of your new rolling programme?

Grant Shapps: We were having this conversation before. It is an ongoing programme of electrification and we are always announcing sections of track. Most recently, some of the money I announced for TRU-plus would be for electrification. The midland main line is due for large sections of electrification. It is very much an ongoing process.

I do not have the exact figure in front of me. I seem to recall that in the 13 years before 2010 something like 67 miles were electrified. In our short period, we have done 1,150 miles—700 miles alone in the last three years, I think. Again, I will check those figures are correct for the record and write to the Committee.

https://committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/2777/html/

 

[vic-rijrode]

Well I don’t want to be political but the fact the MML is not fully electrified including Leicester, Loughborough, Derby, Nottingham, Chesterfield and Sheffield in a climate crisis as well is an absolute embarrassment and disgrace. Just get it done.

Yes, indeed. But I would go further and say that in the third decade of the 21st Century the fact that in England none of these:

Manchester to Leeds (both routes)
Derby to Bristol
Manchester to Sheffield
Bristol to Plymouth
Cardiff to Swansea
Sheffield to Leeds and Doncaster
Doncaster to Hull
Leeds to Hull
Leeds to Bradford (via Pudsey)
Bradford to Halifax and on to the Calder Valley
Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury
Birmingham to Leicester
Newcastle to Middlesbrough (via Sunderland)
and perhaps Marylebone to Birmingham

have been electrified (or in most cases are anywhere near to being electrified) is the real "absolute embarassment and disgrace".

 

[Class360/1]

Yes, indeed. But I would go further and say that in the third decade of the 21st Century the fact that in England none of these:

Manchester to Leeds (both routes)
Derby to Bristol
Manchester to Sheffield
Bristol to Plymouth
Cardiff to Swansea
Sheffield to Leeds and Doncaster
Doncaster to Hull
Leeds to Hull
Leeds to Bradford (via Pudsey)
Bradford to Halifax and on to the Calder Valley
Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury
Birmingham to Leicester
Newcastle to Middlesbrough (via Sunderland)
and perhaps Marylebone to Birmingham

have been electrified (or in most cases are anywhere near to being electrified) is the real "absolute embarassment and disgrace".

Those will need electrifying by 2050 or we will fail our target of zero emissions

 

[vic-rijrode]

Those will need electrifying by 2050 or we will fail our target of zero emissions

Some would say that they should have been electrified by 1950! But we've had this argument before over coal versus oil versus electricity generation etc. immediately after the war when as a country we had no money.

Of course what with corrupt Ministers of Transport, railway loathing PMs, penny-pinching Treasury moguls, we were lucky to get any electrification carried out - lucky I suppose that we have any railways left to electrify.

 

[Killingworth]

Yes, indeed. But I would go further and say that in the third decade of the 21st Century the fact that in England none of these:

Manchester to Leeds (both routes)
Derby to Bristol
Manchester to Sheffield
Bristol to Plymouth
Cardiff to Swansea
Sheffield to Leeds and Doncaster
Doncaster to Hull
Leeds to Hull
Leeds to Bradford (via Pudsey)
Bradford to Halifax and on to the Calder Valley
Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury
Birmingham to Leicester
Newcastle to Middlesbrough (via Sunderland)
and perhaps Marylebone to Birmingham

have been electrified (or in most cases are anywhere near to being electrified) is the real "absolute embarassment and disgrace".

To which could be added a few more;

Bristol Parkway to Temple Meads
Cardiff to Swansea
Northallerton to Middlesbrough
Newcastle to Carlisle

And to think the old North Eastern was planning mainline electrification over 100 years ago.

 

[Aictos]

Yes, indeed. But I would go further and say that in the third decade of the 21st Century the fact that in England none of these:

Manchester to Leeds (both routes)
Derby to Bristol
Manchester to Sheffield
Bristol to Plymouth
Cardiff to Swansea
Sheffield to Leeds and Doncaster
Doncaster to Hull
Leeds to Hull
Leeds to Bradford (via Pudsey)
Bradford to Halifax and on to the Calder Valley
Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury
Birmingham to Leicester
Newcastle to Middlesbrough (via Sunderland)
and perhaps Marylebone to Birmingham

have been electrified (or in most cases are anywhere near to being electrified) is the real "absolute embarassment and disgrace".

You need to add Ipswich to Peterborough via Ely, Peterborough to Birmingham via Leicester as well for both freight between Felixstowe and the West Midlands which has the added benefit of converting the Birmingham to Leicester/Stansted services to EMUs.

 

[HST43257]

Tell you what, how about we group all GB routes into categories?

Category 1: Electrify ASAP
Category 2: Higher priorities but don't forget
Category 3: Electrify eventually, no real rush
Category 4: Don't Electrify

I'll send my ideas for these later

 

[The Ham]

Tell you what, how about we group all GB routes into categories?

Category 1: Electrify ASAP
Category 2: Higher priorities but don't forget
Category 3: Electrify eventually, no real rush
Category 4: Don't Electrify

I'll send my ideas for these later

20 years ago that would have been a good list, however in reality the list should be:

1 should have already been done
2 do as soon as the above have been done
3 do in the next 30 years
4 probably worth doing within 20 years of the above so to not need to have DMU's, unless you can run BEMU's.

In theory there's the potential for "not bother" however they are likely to be few number.

 

[jfowkes]

The Traction Decarbonisation Network Strategy goes into a lot of detail about routes and traction modes, though maybe less on priorities for wiring.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Well I don’t want to be political but the fact the MML is not fully electrified including Leicester, Loughborough, Derby, Nottingham, Chesterfield and Sheffield in a climate crisis as well is an absolute embarrassment and disgrace. Just get it done.

As a very regular user of the MML I can sort of share your frustration. Nevertheless it might be even more embarrassing and disgraceful for the rail industry to wire Leicester, Trent and Sheffield in their current forms and then rip a lot of it down again for station re-modelling, Dore/Sheaf Valley re-modelling, HS2b or whatever and have to go back to the Treasury for more money to do it again (whilst the bi-modes diesel are fired up again during diversions or isolations).

Doing the MML on its own isn't very useful for freight and there are aren't really any local or regional services that could use it either (without a lot more investment in bi-modes or chopping up various through services into short shuttles such as Leicester-Nottingham).

Areas like Filton Bank-Bristol Temple Meads or Edinburgh-Tweedbank would seem to be much more appropriate next steps in terms of being 'ready'.

There is no need for anyone to be 'political'. This is surely about engineering efficiency.

 

[Nottingham59]

Though I live in Nottingham, I feel there are much better priorities than electrifying the MML all the way, and especially not before the future of the HS2 Eastern leg is determined.

If the Eastern leg is built, or even an HS2 stump from Coleshill to East Midlands Parkway, then all of the long-distance traffic from Sheffield and most from Nottingham will go that way. I can't see there would be demand for more than one express service from Derby and one from Nottingham per hour to London. (Though I would see a case for electrifying from Market Harborough to Leicester, and running a 2tph 360-type EMU service from London to Leicester, interleaved with the 2tph service to Corby. Such a service could use the Eastern-most platform at Leicester, avoiding conflicts with Peterborough-Leicester-Nuneaton traffic. Ideally you would build three/four tracks between Wigston and Leicester, and a fifth electrified platform at Leicester to keep EMU operations entirely separate.)

And if the HS2 Eastern leg is not built at all, the MML still only carries 4tph through Market Harborough; and only 4tph from Derby to Sheffield plus freight. Which really wouldn't justify the cost of electrifying what is mostly a 4-track railway. IMHO, far better to electrify suburban lines in big cities with lots of station calls and at least 6tph on each track.

 

[Purple Orange]

. IMHO, far better to electrify suburban lines in big cities with lots of station calls and at least 6tph on each track.

What lines would you suggest? Trans Pennine routes would fit this, as would the CLC, but in the case of the latter, the MML would still need electrifying too. You then need to consider that XC also use the MML.

 

[A S Leib]

To which could be added a few more;

Bristol Parkway to Temple Meads
Cardiff to Swansea
Northallerton to Middlesbrough
Newcastle to Carlisle

And to think the old North Eastern was planning mainline electrification over 100 years ago.

Do South Western have any other diesel services into Waterloo apart from the ones to Salisbury and beyond? If not, I'd add Basingstoke to Exeter (and, by the same token, the Uckfield branch and Marshlink line).

 

[HS2isgood]

Do South Western have any other diesel services into Waterloo apart from the ones to Salisbury and beyond? If not, I'd add Basingstoke to Exeter (and, by the same token, the Uckfield branch and Marshlink line).

West of Salisbury it's just one train per hour, it's not worth it IMO. If a line to Exeter should be electrified, it's the Great Western from Reading.

 

[37424]

Well I don’t want to be political but the fact the MML is not fully electrified including Leicester, Loughborough, Derby, Nottingham, Chesterfield and Sheffield in a climate crisis as well is an absolute embarrassment and disgrace. Just get it done.

I think it depends what's happening with HS2 Eastern Leg if it postponed/axed for the foreseeable future then yes it needs to be a high a priority but if Eastern leg goes ahead in any reasonable timescale I would give priority to other routes and concentrate only on the bits of MML that need to be done for HS2, especially having put significant investment into Bi-mode trains for the MML.

 

[Killingworth]

"Just get it done". I seem to recall that phrase in a recent political context. It was a fine sentiment, until the details of getting it done started to dawn.

Isn't that similar here? It's not at all simple. HS2 is just the start.

I have a Sheffield based orientation on this. Just to bring HS2 into Sheffield on a spur needs at least the tripling of the lines down the Sheaf valley from Dore. Restoring 4 tracks is no longer realistically viable due to encroachments on the old trackbed, although loops could help. That part needs doing for any electrification scheme. Just to get from Chesterfield may require Dronfield station to be moved south. There are a significant number of road overbridges that are likely to need rebuilding and Bradway Tunnel probably needs attention too.

Sheffield station badly needs remodelling, but for what and how? The current passenger bridge across the station is relatively new but needs rebuilding to offer a gated half for rail passengers and a second separate ungated path for non-rail users. The now disconnected south facing spur at the north end needs reconnecting to allow active use to stand terminating services awaiting a return south or west. Bay Platform 2C needs lengthening from 2 car at the south end. How capacity to the north can be increased from the station into and along the Don Valley is challenging.

I could go on with more details, but add one more. Rivers. The line from the south criss-crosses the River Sheaf on numerous bridges all the way down from Dore to Sheffield station. That is on a giant complex raft of stone and brick arches built over the site of old ponds, beside the neighbouring bus station in Pond Street and the swimming complex at Ponds Forge. The Sheaf continues beneath more arches below Park Square/Ponds Forge roundabout to the River Don. Here's a picture of the trap door between Platforms 2C and 5A from below.


The provision for storm water is massive, yet detritus is suspended quite high up on the stone and brickwork along the way, this picture taken in one of the three adjacent parallel tunnels after a long period of dry weather. There's a constant rumble of trains overhead. All part of the hidden infrastructure liabilities and costs of our railways.

 

[quantinghome]

All these are challenges for a major overhaul of Sheffield. But why should that stop electrification proceeding now, as soon as possible?

Consider what happened at Leeds - it was first electrified in 1988; electrification was then extended to the NW suburban lines by 1995, presumably requiring some reworking of the initial electrification. And then the whole of the western approaches were completely remodelled a few years later in the 'Leeds First' upgrade, requiring all the overhead equipment to be replaced after only 12 years' or so use.

Would it have been better to halt the ECML electrification until the remodelling of Leeds was completed, so as to avoid this re-work? No, because the benefits which electrification brought far outweighed the additional cost of replacing the knitting.

 

[Killingworth]

All these are challenges for a major overhaul of Sheffield. But why should that stop electrification proceeding now, as soon as possible?

Consider what happened at Leeds - it was first electrified in 1988; electrification was then extended to the NW suburban lines by 1995, presumably requiring some reworking of the initial electrification. And then the whole of the western approaches were completely remodelled a few years later in the 'Leeds First' upgrade, requiring all the overhead equipment to be replaced after only 12 years' or so use.

Would it have been better to halt the ECML electrification until the remodelling of Leeds was completed, so as to avoid this re-work? No, because the benefits which electrification brought far outweighed the additional cost of replacing the knitting.

Electrification is proceeding as quickly as possible, the problem is defining quick and possible! Killing off the HS2 alignment and station at Meadowhall hasn't helped the East side case at all, or MML electrification - but that's now history.