MML Electrification - what hope of further routes being added going forward?

[duffield]

Sheffield via Retford and Nottingham via Grantham to London? I personally can't see diversions via Mansfield but stranger things have happened.

I can also see big issues for XC when (if) Clay Cross-Chesterfield is shut, although that section is also 4-track so there's more chance of keeping something open for longer there.

When Trent to Nottingham is shut, I can see extra services or doubled up units running from Nottingham to Grantham to connect with LNER services, which would maybe have extra Grantham stops, but I'd think actual through services from Nottingham to Kings Cross are unlikely (though not necessarily impossible) with the ECML being pretty congested at the southern end.

Sheffield via Retford might actually be already operating by the time the relevant section of the MML is shut for electrification since there's an open access operator application in progress for this route, even if that's not approved it shows there might be possible paths.

 

[edwin_m]

When Trent to Nottingham is shut, I can see extra services or doubled up units running from Nottingham to Grantham to connect with LNER services, which would maybe have extra Grantham stops, but I'd think actual through services from Nottingham to Kings Cross are unlikely (though not necessarily impossible) with the ECML being pretty congested at the southern end.

Sheffield via Retford might actually be already operating by the time the relevant section of the MML is shut for electrification since there's an open access operator application in progress for this route, even if that's not approved it shows there might be possible paths.

I tend to agree. I think it was mentioned somewhere here that EMR added extra units to some Nottingham-Grantham services during a recent blockade of their London trains.

It's a bit different the other way round, where they are apparently looking to run some LNER trains into St Pancras during ECML closures. In principle these could replace shorter EMR trains in the same paths, with EMR using the displaced units to strengthen their remaining services.

 

[Technologist]

Fast chargers at stations implies a heavy current demand so it might be better to string up some knitting for a few dozen miles to smooth out the demand - yeah going round in circles !. Possibility is if the fast charger at West Ealing can be scaled up for a ten coach train without knocking the local areas domestic power too hard. But then how quickly will it be ready for the next ten coach train.

If we are running long trains frequently enough it suggests we need proper electrification.

Batteries are edging down to similar cost per kg to bulk materials and battery lifetimes are still heading steadily upwards. The charger would likely have a battery in it so it just places a constant demand on the grid.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Batteries are edging down to similar cost per kg to bulk materials and battery lifetimes are still heading steadily upwards. The charger would likely have a battery in it so it just places a constant demand on the grid.

I agree but there is a limit IF the amount of electricity being used for traction charging is a significant part of the local areas usage.

West Ealing / Greenford is a not very frequent 2 car service. Scale that up to frequent 9 or 10 car intercity trains and your talking about ten times more electricity needed if the frequency is the same (one train in each direction). Or more if the frequency is greater.

I can imagine the line side battery system for the 230 is steadily replenishing itself ALL the time the train is away. Could the local power supply cope with ten times that (or more) ?.

 

[Nottingham59]

I can imagine the line side battery system for the 230 is steadily replenishing itself ALL the time the train is away. Could the local power supply cope with ten times that (or more) ?.

A 132kV circuit can carry around 70MW of power. That's enough to recharge 35 BEMUs simultaneously, assuming 500kWh batteries taking 15 minutes to recharge.

It's the phase imbalance that is the limiting factor with traditional grid feeders, not the capacity of local power supplies.

 

[Meerkat]

Wouldnt Exeter need to be a proper OHLE island so it can cover the stabling in the depot? Be nice to have OHLE up the hill to Central

 

[Peter Sarf]

A 132kV circuit can carry around 70MW of power. That's enough to recharge 35 BEMUs simultaneously, assuming 500kWh batteries taking 15 minutes to recharge.

It's the phase imbalance that is the limiting factor with traditional grid feeders, not the capacity of local power supplies.

Surely that is a proper grid feed. As in from the national grid.

I was thinking about cases where the power supply would have to be from a more local and lower voltage circuit like that used at West Ealing / Greenford.

 

[Nottingham59]

Surely that is a proper grid feed. As in from the national grid.

I was thinking about cases where the power supply would have to be from a more local and lower voltage circuit like that used at West Ealing / Greenford.

ah, OK. There's 33kV substations next to the railway at both West Ealing (Longfield Ave) and at Greenford (Oldfield Lane North). And a single 33kV circuit can carry 5 to 20MW. So the local grid might need upgrading, depending on how heavily loaded the current network is.

 

[Zomboid]

Greenford is a solution that might be applicable for branches of that nature - such as the other Thames valley branches. It'll be no use at all for large or continuous loads.

The voltage of the circuit doesn't in itself tell you the power rating though, since you need to know the rated current. For example a standard 3 phase 33kV circuit breaker used in distribution applications is good for 1250A, which is 41MVA, but the cables will be something else depending on the material, cross section area and how they're laid, and then there's the other components to consider.

 

[tram21]

Greenford is a solution that might be applicable for branches of that nature - such as the other Thames valley branches. It'll be no use at all for large or continuous loads.

It'd work well at Matlock, if a BEMU was on wires then run on Battery up the branch. I don't know the range of BEMUs- it may be that they can complete the branch without any charging up!

 

[InTheEastMids]

Bringing the conversation back to what should be the next extension to the MML programme, and I'm going to be a bit controversial and say Nothing - at least for a bit.
By 2030 the 810s are only using diesel for diversions, the 170s should still have a decade left in them and if other schemes are being progressed in Southern and Scotland, there should be enough Turbostars available to retire the 158s (e.g. from Southern or Scotrail).

So rather than focusing on the next bit of MMLE too closely, I really want to see the rate of conversion of route km to zero-emission operation to significantly increase. I think in particular there's huge amounts of work in GWR land and Chiltern because of rolling stock issues, HS2 and EWR will further stress the supply chain. If 170s and 220/1 are going to last until 2040 then XC, Hope, Erewash and rural Lincolnshire do not feel as urgent.

 

[Zomboid]

Bringing the conversation back to what should be the next extension to the MML programme, and I'm going to be a bit controversial and say Nothing - at least for a bit.

Where are you assuming it finishes in saying that?

My view would be that it should form a properly joined up system and continue past Sheffield to the Leeds - Doncaster line, where local and XC trains will be able to benefit, and the 810s will be able to run as pure electrics for all their usual operations.

After that then yes, Didcot to Bletchley would seem ripe for wiring (and actually ought not to be a sequential thing, Didcot to Oxford should be tackled as soon as the Oxford station project is in a sufficiently advanced state to make it possible).

 

[duffield]

It'd work well at Matlock, if a BEMU was on wires then run on Battery up the branch. I don't know the range of BEMUs- it may be that they can complete the branch without any charging up!

If the MML is wired to Ambergate Junction it's only a 14 mile round trip to Matlock off the wires, battery trains were good for 50 miles a few years back.

 

[zwk500]

Where are you assuming it finishes in saying that?

As currently announced MML Electrification only goes to Sheffield station.

My view would be that it should form a properly joined up system and continue past Sheffield to the Leeds - Doncaster line, where local and XC trains will be able to benefit, and the 810s will be able to run as pure electrics for all their usual operations.

XC can't benefit until they have Bi-Mode stock, but local trains are worth benefitting regardless and both the route to Moorthorpe/South Kirkby junction and Doncaster should be done.

After that then yes, Didcot to Bletchley would seem ripe for wiring (and actually ought not to be a sequential thing, Didcot to Oxford should be tackled as soon as the Oxford station project is in a sufficiently advanced state to make it possible).

Didcot to Oxford is an obvious follow-on, but Oxford-Bletchley is not quite so simple until the higher frequencies to Bedford are running. My next electrification project would be Birmingham Snow Hill lines or Bristol suburban but that's a different thread.

If the MML is wired to Ambergate Junction it's only a 14 mile round trip to Matlock off the wires, battery trains were good for 50 miles a few years back.

Indeed, wire into Ambergate station itself and then have a top-up charger at Matlock if you really need it (I suspect you don't).

 

[Zomboid]

XC can't benefit until they have Bi-Mode stock, but local trains are worth benefitting regardless and both the route to Moorthorpe/South Kirkby junction and Doncaster should be done

No, but my crystal ball indicates that XC is very likely to get some form of bi-modes whenever they do move on from the voyagers.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

My view would be that it should form a properly joined up system and continue past Sheffield to the Leeds - Doncaster line, where local and XC trains will be able to benefit, and the 810s will be able to run as pure electrics for all their usual operations.

You could do Sheffield to Leeds progressively. The first phase being part of the Hallam line from Leeds through Stourton terminal to Castlefield and then back round to Wakefield Kirkgate including the link from Turners Lane Jnc to Hare Park Jnc. This route has been identified by the freight sector as quite a useful link to electrify and is not especially long or complex. Next continue round the short way from Kirkgate to link up with TRUP electrification at Ravensthorpe. That route is used by Grand Central who are acquiring bimodes, as are the freight sector. Then you'd progress downwards on the Moorthorpe and/or Barnsley lines to Sheffield.

After that then yes, Didcot to Bletchley would seem ripe for wiring (and actually ought not to be a sequential thing, Didcot to Oxford should be tackled as soon as the Oxford station project is in a sufficiently advanced state to make it possible).

Probably some of the most essential electrification that we should be doing far more immediately than what i was saying earlier is Didcot to Oxford, Bristol Parkway to Bristol Temple Meads, Cardiff to Swansea and Chippenham to Bristol through Bath. The designs already exist including some kind of complex negotiation with listed buildings through Bath. Also the GWR bimodes that were originally designed as EMUs are already showing accelerated signs of ageing. If you look at the timetable almost all Cardiff trains actually extend further to Swansea.

 

[WAO]

I agree that there's something to be said for Sheffield - Moorthorpe wiring. While the present stopping service is about hourly, the benefit would be double as half the total route is already wired. With reversal in the bays at Leeds the Sheffield trains could continue on to Skipton, stock permitting. There must be a case for some East Midlands trains continuing on to Leeds as there seems plently of XC passengers to go round. If the proposed Chesterfield/Hasland GSP/FS could feed the 28 or so miles to South Kirkby Junction, then there may be a chance.

WAO

 

[GraphitProjekt]

I think it's about 14 miles from Chesterfield to Sheffield. And a further 18 miles to South Kirkby Jnc. Supposing that Chesterfield is a dual supply FS like all the others on the line, that would be 32ish miles which seems a little steep. It may be viable if it's fully fitted with AT feeding, but realistically you'd want another FS somewhere. Given that the Barnsley route is perhaps the second most likely candidate for electrification it would make sense to put an FS at Meadowhall. There's also more than a couple of transmission grid options in Sheffield.

 

[Zomboid]

I think it's about 14 miles from Chesterfield to Sheffield. And a further 18 miles to South Kirkby Jnc. Supposing that Chesterfield is a dual supply FS like all the others on the line, that would be 32ish miles which seems a little steep. It may be viable if it's fully fitted with AT feeding, but realistically you'd want another FS somewhere. Given that the Barnsley route is perhaps the second most likely candidate for electrification it would make sense to put an FS at Meadowhall. There's also more than a couple of transmission grid options in Sheffield.

It's certainly not a problem for an AT supply to feed so far, and the ECML supply might be able to feed some distance south from South Kirkby as well. Depends on how much load there is really.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

It's certainly not a problem for an AT supply to feed so far, and the ECML supply might be able to feed some distance south from South Kirkby as well. Depends on how much load there is really.

Yeah AT could likely support that distance but the issue perhaps is for N-1 and N-2 feeding. I've never heard anyone discuss this, but there surely would be some restrictions for a classic system feeding an AT one as backup - though I suspect it's fine if you switch out all the -25kV equipment.
The Wakefield mainline is fed from Doncaster as far as South Kirkby Junction MPTSC (how convenient, perhaps they planned it that way in the 80s) after which it is supplied by a single supply FS at (East) Ardsley as far as Copeley Hill just before Leeds station. Ardsley i don't think is included in the ECML PSU and was listed as at max capacity in 2009. It's possible it was upgraded at some other time that i don't know about

 

[Zomboid]

N-1 would just use the second supply at Chesterfieldish supply, N-2 you reduce the load anyway.