MML Electrification: progress updates

[Bald Rick]

Would it help if Corby and Leicester trains split/join at Kettering?

To a certain extent, as it would then be 6tph. Doesn’t solve the problems at Leicester though, and Market Harboro’ would see a severe extension of journey times.

 

[A0wen]

8tph isn’t doable:

1) not enough fast line capacity south of Bedford
2) not enough capacity at Wigston, nor at Leicester itself.
3) the ‘stoppers’ will take 16 - 20 minutes longer between St P and Leicester than a fast. Essentially this means there would have to be compromises on stopping patterns and/or journey times for stations south of Leicester.

That's fair enough - as I said, I didn't know whether 8tph was 'do-able' - the capacity south of Bedford is probably the killer, though the capacity through Leicester doesn't help.

What about turning Corby over to Thameslink extending 2 Bedford services an hour ? Then diverting the 2 EMT "Corby's" to Leicester covering the stops and running the Sheffield and Nottinghams as fast to Leicester? That would mean 6tph out of St P - 2 x Leicester stoppers, 2 x Nottingham and 2 x Sheffield.

It would mean Kettering & Wellingborough would get 4 tph to London, Corby 2, Market Harborough 2. The Market Harborough journey times would be slightly longer than the fast they have today, but that's just a return to the position pre-Corby IIRC where it was served by the stoppers in any case.

Wouldn't increase the demand for paths south of Bedford, might still have a problem at Leicester though?

 

[edwin_m]

I suspect the Corby has to be sepraate from the Thameslink service, firstly to provide enough commuter capacity and secondly because the Class 700 interior isn't really suitable for that length of journey (and the Thameslink core relies on all trains being metro-style to give short dwell times). So the basic pattern will probably be similar to today's but with two Corby trains per hour and the existing semi-fasts making fewer stops south of Kettering. This could remain broadly unchanged until 2032, possibly with incremental acceleration, but after then the London-Sheffield passengers will transfer to HS2 so there is no need for a Sheffield fast service on MML. The semi-fast services could then link the intermediate stations with Sheffield and/or Toton.

 

[iced_blue]

Currently Bedford - Brighton is 2h30m on a 700 running Corby - Three Bridges would be slightly shorter.

Plus the 700s would have a larger capacity for commuters.

 

[londonmidland]

Heading from Leicester to London, I’m happy to report that there has been a short stretch of OHLE that has been erected between Wellingborough and Bedford, on the slow lines.

I’m no expert in this area but it’s this sort that’s been put up, spanning across two tracks.

 

[Bald Rick]

Heading from Leicester to London, I’m happy to report that there has been a short stretch of OHLE that has been erected between Wellingborough and Bedford, on the slow lines.

I’m no expert in this area but it’s this sort that’s been put up, spanning across two tracks.

Twin Track cantilever (TTC)

 

[Bald Rick]

That's fair enough - as I said, I didn't know whether 8tph was 'do-able' - the capacity south of Bedford is probably the killer, though the capacity through Leicester doesn't help.

What about turning Corby over to Thameslink extending 2 Bedford services an hour ? Then diverting the 2 EMT "Corby's" to Leicester covering the stops and running the Sheffield and Nottinghams as fast to Leicester? That would mean 6tph out of St P - 2 x Leicester stoppers, 2 x Nottingham and 2 x Sheffield.

It would mean Kettering & Wellingborough would get 4 tph to London, Corby 2, Market Harborough 2. The Market Harborough journey times would be slightly longer than the fast they have today, but that's just a return to the position pre-Corby IIRC where it was served by the stoppers in any case.

Wouldn't increase the demand for paths south of Bedford, might still have a problem at Leicester though?

That would lead to quite an extension of journey times to Corby; at least 12-15 mins. Also would need more class 700s. The fasts would still have to be flighted in pairs 4 mins apart to give the following stopper time to get to Leicester in front of the next Fast, which means that although Leicester would have 4tph, it would effectively be half hourly.

Finally, I wouldn’t fancy trying to mesh the Thameslink timetable onto a fast, fast, slow flight out of St P high level. Can’t see how it can work personally.

Edit: just to note that some of the finest timetable planners in the land have been working on how you mesh 6tph out of St Pancras with Thameslink for years. If the answer was obvious or easy, it would have been found!

 

[A0wen]

That would lead to quite an extension of journey times to Corby; at least 12-15 mins. Also would need more class 700s. The fasts would still have to be flighted in pairs 4 mins apart to give the following stopper time to get to Leicester in front of the next Fast, which means that although Leicester would have 4tph, it would effectively be half hourly.

Finally, I wouldn’t fancy trying to mesh the Thameslink timetable onto a fast, fast, slow flight out of St P high level. Can’t see how it can work personally.

Edit: just to note that some of the finest timetable planners in the land have been working on how you mesh 6tph out of St Pancras with Thameslink for years. If the answer was obvious or easy, it would have been found!

I don't for a second doubt the complexities of this timetabling - and I'm sure it's taxed various people over the years.

Only one question I would ask - does the reinstatement of the 4 track north of Bedford help at all? i.e. could a fast 'pass' a slow between Bedford and Kettering and the slow then run in it's 'wake' to Leicester without being caught by the next fast?

 

[edwin_m]

Currently Bedford - Brighton is 2h30m on a 700 running Corby - Three Bridges would be slightly shorter.

Plus the 700s would have a larger capacity for commuters.

Few people travel all the way from Bedford to Brighton, and if they do they have the choice of changing into a more comfortable Southern unit for some of the journey as well as a more comfortable Corby unit for the northern part if that service is provided as I suggested.

I suggested that the Corby trains would be additional to the 700s, not instead of, so they would increase capacity.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't for a second doubt the complexities of this timetabling - and I'm sure it's taxed various people over the years.

Only one question I would ask - does the reinstatement of the 4 track north of Bedford help at all? i.e. could a fast 'pass' a slow between Bedford and Kettering and the slow then run in it's 'wake' to Leicester without being caught by the next fast?

Yes it would help, so long as the freights don’t get in the way too much.

 

[Skymonster]

Yes it would help, so long as the freights don’t get in the way too much.

About time all freight was moved to overnight to stop it clogging up the network while passenger trains are running.

 

[Bald Rick]

About time all freight was moved to overnight to stop it clogging up the network while passenger trains are running.

That would kill the Railfreight industry; being able to use their assets for 6hours a day is not an efficient use of resources.

One train I saw this morning on the MML comes from Scotland, and was going to Thurrock. It takes 12hrs. What time do you suggest it runs?

 

[Roast Veg]

Not strictly electrification related, but at Leicester on Sunday the new speed indicator signs read 40mph on the up line out of platform 3, and 15mph heading the wrong way (up) out of platform 2. Temporary speed restriction on platform 3 so no real changes to services yet, I also didn't have a look at platform 4.

 

[Domh245]

Twin Track cantilever (TTC)

And the series 2 Bonomi design part of master series rather than the series 1 F&F design. Presumably that stretch is sub 100mph?

 

[londonmidland]

Not strictly electrification related, but at Leicester on Sunday the new speed indicator signs read 40mph on the up line out of platform 3, and 15mph heading the wrong way (up) out of platform 2. Temporary speed restriction on platform 3 so no real changes to services yet, I also didn't have a look at platform 4.

Platform 3 up line has a 25mph TSR board (it’s been up for about a week or two so I’m not sure when the 40mph limit will come into affect?)

 

[Roast Veg]

I suppose it could happen at any time - NR have a history of keeping TSRs on for extended periods.

Additionally I noticed that at the other end of the platforms the barrow crossing is newly marked as "not to be used", despite passenger prevention signs having been in place for years. Are UKRL/DBC staff still able to use it or has it been closed as part of these works?

 

[londonmidland]

I suppose it could happen at any time - NR have a history of keeping TSRs on for extended periods.

Additionally I noticed that at the other end of the platforms the barrow crossing is newly marked as "not to be used", despite passenger prevention signs having been in place for years. Are UKRL/DBC staff still able to use it or has it been closed as part of these works?

As far as I’m aware, the notice is only for EMT staff not to use, as previously they would use it to transfer wheelchair users across platforms if the lift was out of order.

All other staff can use it.

 

[Roast Veg]

Ah that makes sense - I've previously observed DBC drivers change over on platform 2 and use it to access the site, as well as UKRL staff use the car park gate and cross all the way over so it would seem pretty inconvenient if it were out of use entirely!

 

[InTheEastMids]

And the series 2 Bonomi design part of master series rather than the series 1 F&F design. Presumably that stretch is sub 100mph?

Currently traveling into St Pancras, so at the risk of over simplifying, here's what I think it's going on:

Glendon to Kettering: 4 tracking complete and in use, no sign of any electrification works
Kettering to Wellingborough: extensive 4th track laid except where there is existing infrastructure to be moved.
A lot of ground clearance with of Kettering station, presumably this is for the train care facility.
Wellingborough to Wymington: intensive work on 4 tracking, including the bridge over the Nene, the slow line is clearly closed this weekend.
Wymington to Sharnbrook junction: intermittent sections of new track, less activity today
South of Sharnbrook junction: I counted over 20 masts up over the slow lines, mostly look like they are TTCs as in the photo up thread.

 

[IKBrunel]

I don’t think there is a single right answer. Melksham is an example where the grid supply runs underground for a couple of miles between the relevant National Grid site and the railway installation at Thingley Junction. If an ‘along track supply’ is needed it can be run on normal looking OHLE stanchions, or in a ground level cable trunk, I expect it depends on clearance as mentioned in the previous post.

slightly slow reply, but since this is the electrification thread -
Certainly for public networks it's a cost vs safety decision. Overhead lines are significantly cheaper to install. (easier to auger a few poles in than digging a long trench to the required spec & going under/over all the other services. But underground used in urban areas where there's a higher risk of accidental contact from high vehicles etc etc. In a railway context if it's an overhead vs concrete trough decision, aren't cables in troughs a bit vulnerable to damage? trough lids always seem to be half missing from later alterations from what I've seen.

 

[Flying Phil]

Thanks for the summary "InTheEastMids"....nice that progress is being maintained but I think there is still a lot of work to do going through Wellingborough?

 

[edwin_m]

slightly slow reply, but since this is the electrification thread -
Certainly for public networks it's a cost vs safety decision. Overhead lines are significantly cheaper to install. (easier to auger a few poles in than digging a long trench to the required spec & going under/over all the other services. But underground used in urban areas where there's a higher risk of accidental contact from high vehicles etc etc. In a railway context if it's an overhead vs concrete trough decision, aren't cables in troughs a bit vulnerable to damage? trough lids always seem to be half missing from later alterations from what I've seen.

I think they may take a bit more care of troughs where they carry 25kV feeders. I think I read many years ago that there is more power lost on buried AC cables than overhead one (something to do with capacitance) and this may be one reason why the really high power ones tend to use DC.

It would be interesting to see the relative costs for the railway - for the cost of providing an "extension lead" to Market Harborough would they actually be able to provide actual OLE? Or are there service robustiness reasons (so power could still be fed to Corby and Wellingborough even if the OLE between Market Harborough and Glendon was under maintenance) why the extension lead was needed in the pre-Grayling scheme and OLE on its own wouldn't be acceptable?

 

[InTheEastMids]

Thanks for the summary "InTheEastMids"....nice that progress is being maintained but I think there is still a lot of work to do going through Wellingborough?

Yes - there is a 4th platform and Eastern access to add to Wellingborough station, with nothing done yet (although we do not know that this is essential to run the post 2020 timetable). I can only assume that they are waiting for the lead developer for Wellingborough East to put in the infrastructure - particularly the roads that will simplify access, and then enable them to crack on.

 

[Senex]

Does anyone know what the current state of work at the south end of Leicester is? The 40 planned on the up main has still not been implemented—there's still a 25 TSR in force—and as far as whatever is planned on the down is concerned, there's still a 20 TSR in force?
(Seen in the course of a very poor run from London yesterday with something like an 8-minute late arrival. Followed an aggregates train from Sharnbrook Summit to Kettering South Jn, and then a near-stand for signals at Market Harborough Jn.)

 

[Senex]

And another question. Does anyone who sees the WONs know the dates on which the Kettering - Corby doubling was (a) commissioned, and (b) brought into use? Thanks in advance if anyone can give this information.

 

[Hairy Bear]

Mon 26th of Feb if I remember correctly.
As for Leicester s jn, there's the old crossover still to take out, but there moving at there own sweet pace.

 

[Senex]

Mon 26th of Feb if I remember correctly.
As for Leicester s jn, there's the old crossover still to take out, but there moving at there own sweet pace.

Thanks for that!

 

[Dr Hoo]

Does anyone know what the current state of work at the south end of Leicester is? The 40 planned on the up main has still not been implemented—there's still a 25 TSR in force—and as far as whatever is planned on the down is concerned, there's still a 20 TSR in force?
(Seen in the course of a very poor run from London yesterday with something like an 8-minute late arrival. Followed an aggregates train from Sharnbrook Summit to Kettering South Jn, and then a near-stand for signals at Market Harborough Jn.)

There was a major points failure at Leicester with the new kit last Thursday (first really hot day of the year). The bidirectional slow line via Sharnbrook has been closed for weeks for bridge reconstruction so freights have to share the main line.
Not an easy time on the Midland Main Line at the moment.

 

[DPWH]

South of Bedford there are 4 lines, a pair of fasts and a pair of slows. But that means to cross over from the Down fast to the down slow (or vice-versa), a train has to pass over the up fast. And to go from the up fast to the up slow (or vice-versa) a train has to pass over the down slow. Is this a limit on capacity?

 

[edwin_m]

South of Bedford there are 4 lines, a pair of fasts and a pair of slows. But that means to cross over from the Down fast to the down slow (or vice-versa), a train has to pass over the up fast. And to go from the up fast to the up slow (or vice-versa) a train has to pass over the down slow. Is this a limit on capacity?

Yes. In principle the timetable can be set up so that trains in both directions make the crossing move simultaneously, so that conflict does not occur, but this may not be possible due to constraints elsewhere on the route and obviously it breaks down if one of the trains is a couple of minutes late. There has been talk of grade separation for some of these crossovers but it would be quite difficult to do.