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Modal shift in the suburbs?

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Bletchleyite

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Some places they need to buy and demolish buildings to create an offstreet car park for residents and/or local shops etc, to clear the road for buses.
The downside is the reduction in housing (unless its urban enough to build flats above or there are redundant shop/business units
Also buying a suburban house so a bus road can be knocked through into single entry/exit housing estates. Depending on the location that might not even involve unpopular compulsory purchase, just buying the next one in a row that comes up for sale.
It will of course be expensive, but if you compare to the cost of building railways etc it looks like chickenfeed.

I was thinking the same. That would be achievable in Northern cities but probably not London due to the disparate costs of property.

You could as you say avoid losing housing units by redeveloping 4 terraced properties into a car park the size of 2 properties and a block of 4-5 flats on the other 2. This is also a way of providing EV charging locally.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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Some places they need to buy and demolish buildings to create an offstreet car park for residents and/or local shops etc, to clear the road for buses.
The downside is the reduction in housing (unless its urban enough to build flats above or there are redundant shop/business units
Also buying a suburban house so a bus road can be knocked through into single entry/exit housing estates. Depending on the location that might not even involve unpopular compulsory purchase, just buying the next one in a row that comes up for sale.
It will of course be expensive, but if you compare to the cost of building railways etc it looks like chickenfeed.
The question is who are "they"? If you're talking about local authorities, they've got very little money as it is.

Part of the issue is that funding has to be provided, and effectively ringfenced/managed (see Bristol metrobus) for bus priority, and to be brave enough to put in and enforce measures. However, when looking at buying land for car parks, it is massively expensive. Here's another Bristol example:

  • The bus lane into Bath on the A4 doesn't extend to Arnos Vale because of parking outside townhouses that are now converted to flats. It is a known pinchpoint where buses get stuck (I know)
  • There is a layby that was, I think, a former petrol station on the right. There was something similar on the other side of the road - now with a load of flats shoehorned onto the site and you'd think something similar may happen on the other.
  • How much is that site going to cost... and how many of the 50 or so cars will be accommodated?
Can you imagine the furore as well.... ps there are plans for the A4 between Bristol and Bath and the locals are already creating holy hell because of the impact on car congestion just to benefit a few buses - their sentiments NOT mine

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RT4038

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Often bus routes are historic and don't get reviewed. This can be an issue where places expanding on (say) one side but all the buses are focused on the historic centre of the population, but this can be quite a long way from where now a lot of people live.

It's not uncommon for buses to be extended from one area to a new build, however this can make the roites very slow to get anywhere. It also can mean that consideration isn't given to serving new locations.
However, the people are still living in the historic centre of the population, so don't wan't to see their (financially staggering) bus service being reduced, and there is no money (either commercially or subsidy) to run comparable services 'where now a lot of people live' .

There's also a need to have public transport officers with a better understanding of bus use and be willing to accept that whilst changing routes might not be popular there could be a good case for doing so - especially if the centre of the population has shifted significantly and/or there's a new key hub location (such as a supermarket).
Being unpopular (with existing users) and a good case for changing routes sits fairly uncomfortably. Upset and lose your existing customer base for the possibility of a new one is not usually a phrase associated with successful commercial operations, or the pleasure of local councillors having to deal with the flak from voters.
Car club cars tend to have to be returned to the same point and are charged on how long they are out of the space, so chances are using it for work isn't going to be cost effective.

Where they work is where people "need" a car for a limited time period a few times a week.

For example, a second car is justified because there's no other option to travel to (say) you child's swimming lessons and it's quite nice not to have to walk, cycle or use public transport to do the rest of your travel (even though you could).

Clearly car clubs aren't going to work for everyone, but they often do work for enough people that they in average mean that there's about 15 fewer cars owned for each one provided. That may not sound like a lot, but that's 10 (it's not as high as 14 as the car club side is dedicated so it's "full" even when it's not there) fewer cars fighting for parking space. Which in locations where it's all on street parking can be quite significant.

I suspect that there's some deliberate messing from those who benefit from high car ownership (fuel companies, car brands, etc.) that the goal of lower car use is that no one should be able to use a car. Also there's a lot of people who either believe this or at least can't see that other people may live different lives to them by asking questions about (say) car clubs where the answer would be that the thing being talked about isn't a viable option. As if because they example isn't a viable option then it isn't a viable option for anyone and we should all drive all the time.

First, that would be impossible. What's needed is a reduction in car use. A figure of 10% would be if significant benefit to a lot of people.
I think car clubs are a pretty niche activity, unlikely to become mainstream and only likely to fit a minority of people's circumstances. Not to say that they don't have their uses.

However I should think the barrier to expanding the concept of car clubs is if can you afford a car, or two cars, or more (depending on size of family), why wouldn't you? Yes, if you are (a) particularly enthusiastic on moral grounds, and/or (b) a public transport enthusiast, and/or (c) don't see a car as an extension of your persona and don't care much what other people think, and/or (d) have parking difficulties at home, and/or (e) would rather spend the money on something else, and/or (f) can't afford to own car/s, and (g) do not need a car each to get to work, then I can understand trading the inconvenience of not having a car each. And inconvenience it definitely is.

I live in a medium sized town in the shires. My wife and I (no children) have only had one car for the last 23 years. I fall in (b), (c) (e) and (g) categories. I have been within walking distance from work, or working from home, for all those years, and 25 min walk from the main bus stops and a fairly major railway station. [for 10 of them I was entitled to a fully expensed company car, but chose to take the cash alternative and use public transport instead].

For this to work I have had to have a pretty comprehensive knowledge of public transport routes and timetables. We both have had to have friends prepared to go out of their way to give us lifts (and reciprocated when circumstances allow). We have both had to schedule journeys in for when the car has been available, at severe inconvenience on occasions, none on others and a lot of some . Sometimes we've used taxis, and certainly walked quite some distance (healthy no doubt, but not always appreciated at the time, especially in bad weather or when carrying items). I've spent lots more of my time travelling by public transport than if a car had been available for the same journey. Some activities have been altered, curtailed or simply not done. But it has been an enjoyable time. Using a car club for any of this sounds like a faff too, but if available I might well have made occasional use?

One car and children would have been much, much more difficult. Having no car, or having to rely on a car club/ public transport/ taxis /car hire for everything would have been so restricting and miserable.

Only one car on the front drive (space for two cars), and the only car in the street to go in the garage at night.

If it wasn't for (b) and almost certainly (g) would I have put ourselves through all of this? No - we'd have foregone the (quantity and quality) of the alternative expenditure I expect.
 
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The Ham

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As always, a lot from @RT4038 in his getting to the nub of things. Not least, the issues with housing development, government house building targets, the economics of house building, and the fact that section 106 funding isn't some cash cow that local authorities can milk in order to support bus services. Not least because many smaller developments simply don't have the economic case to do much more than put up a couple of raise curbs and a shelter, and because s106 funding may often have to pay for other facilities, such as a new (or funds to expand an existing) school or health centre. Where there are larger developments, there is more scope to have features to promote bus use though private car use is still the dominant transport mode.

As @RT4038 has said, local authorities are expected to reflect the needs of the population, and as there are many more car drivers than public transport users, policy will inevitably be skewed.

@The Ham has volunteered some comments; I'm not a member of a car club nor had any exposure to using one so I'll gloss over that area but I few other comments that I think are worth covering off...

Public transport officers aren't stupid. They have a remit to provide socially necessary services outside the commercially viable ones so that invariably means looking at existing transport flows as they are demonstrably necessary. That said, I can think of several instances where such services have been extended when a supermarket has opened etc but these officers are dealing with tight budgets; they can barely support the existing services and whilst some diversions/extensions are possible, that can only be done if it doesn't result in an on-cost.

I'm give you a real world example where the thinking from the officers wasn't that good.

There was a sure being built and a further sure proposed further out, the suggestion was to extend the bus to the first site to the second site (few shares facilities so little need to travel between the two), both sites had over 500 homes (so quite sizable).

The proposal put forwards by the developers team, took a bus route from the other side of town and extended that to the hospital and then along the main road to the second site.

When the second option was put to the bus company they loved it. Why? The extra journey time from the day side of town only required one extra bus compared to the basic extension, but connected an existing service to the hospital as well as the new site to it.

Only then did the officers decide that it was a good idea (in fact they claimed that they thought it was a good idea all along).

As far as I can recall, there have been three local referenda on the subject of local tax raising (or at least spring to mind). Bristol in 2001 asked if people wanted a council tax freeze (and cut services), a modest increase to maintain services, or a larger increase to improve services. People voted for the cuts! In Croydon (about the same time), you had a similar one where there were 2%, 3.5% or 5% council tax increases to maintain or improve services. Again, the lowest figure won. Then you had the Manchester congestion charge.

Now that's 20 years ago and we've seen local government spending gutted in the last 14 years. However, do I think that people will vote (especially in the current economic climate) for tax and spend? Absolutely not, and if we did, there are crises in social care and other infrastructure that are much more pressing and electorally sensitive.

As I've said, because there's too much focus on low cost, rather than good value. If you could buy 2 acres of farm land (£20,000) and a £2,000 rent every year over a 70 year period or would cost £160,000. That's far cheaper than buying a house (and you'll have a lot more land).

No one dies or because there's lots of implications of living in a tent which are very hard to put a price on (for example preparing a meal on a gas stove rather than in a kitchen) but have a value.

If we keep cutting taxes, there will come a point where things will become hard for people.

I'm not saying that we should tax and spend (at least not in the way many would typically think), as racking up a large deficit isn't great either. Spending money to keep the workforce healthy (so trying to limit waiting times on the NHS), able to move about (so they can access better paid jobs), well trained (so they have the potential to work in good jobs), where companies are encouraged to invest in people as well as equipment (so that those who miss oit in further education can still do well, but there's an advantage to not having low paid staff unless it's a sector where there's no option but to be staff heavy - as whilst the population is getting much bigger the working age population is hardy getting bigger).

This is the nub of it. I've mentioned it before but Copenhagen did an exercise in removing 1% of roadside parking spaces by stealth.

Imagine doing that on a major arterial road from the centre to the suburbs? A road with good public transport but the challenge will be the enforcement and those claiming it's undermining their business, their right to park outside their house, etc.

With the claims of the foil hatters about restriction of liberties, low traffic neighbourhoods etc, you can imagine the outrage...

I have a question, if I have a shop with 2 hours parking restrictions outside it, except for permit holders, what is better:

- me and my other shop keepers parking in half (10 out of 20 spaces) of the spaces near the shop by using our permits
- leaving all 20 spaces vacant for our customers to use

The problem is, in business terms the latter is the better, as over an 8 hour day (assuming that each space is used for an average of 2 hours at a time) it's the difference between 40 customers for those shops and 80 customers for those shops.

Obviously, that's a very simple way of looking at it (in that there'll be shops which do need to have work based vehicles, however there'll be plenty which don't).

That's a beautiful theory but people don't act like that. I see plenty of people who go to the gym who would never walk or cycle. I used to use the gym in Longwell Green in Bristol, and I had to laugh at the majority of people who would enter and then use the escalator to go up to the gym, rather than the stairs!

Indeed, it does however highlight the fact that too many don't see simple things as being good for them. Almost "I can only get fit by using an exercise machine, but if I climb the stairs that's of no benefit to my health at all."

It's why some are keen to highlight that it's not unreasonable to cycle for 40 minutes a day every work day may actually be as good for you as going to the gym for 2.5 hours a week, but by the time you add in your driving to get to and from work and the gym you'll actually spend more time exercising and travelling than just traveling by cycle.

Here's an example that I've posted before but now updated and it shows it even better than before. A38 Gloucester Road is an urban clearway so no parking/loading before 1000 and after 1600, so no problem? However, imagine if there was a bus lane down the left hand side.... OR

View attachment 150383

...even if you removed these two spaces so the bus had a clear run to the major junction ahead? It's not about the big things - LTNs and grandiose schemes but even just little moves may have a bigger return

View attachment 150382

Indeed, however there's not the funding for those simple things, LTN's attract government grants to be installed which is why they get done.

Some places they need to buy and demolish buildings to create an offstreet car park for residents and/or local shops etc, to clear the road for buses.
The downside is the reduction in housing (unless its urban enough to build flats above or there are redundant shop/business units
Also buying a suburban house so a bus road can be knocked through into single entry/exit housing estates. Depending on the location that might not even involve unpopular compulsory purchase, just buying the next one in a row that comes up for sale.
It will of course be expensive, but if you compare to the cost of building railways etc it looks like chickenfeed.

That's the American way of doing things, the net result is town centres which are low density and are no longer the destinations they once were.

Shops work well when there's enough of them in a small enough area that people can walk between two major shops and have the chance to pop into shops between the two. They don't work where you have to drive between the two main shops as people won't visit the others (not that they'll exist at they'll be a car park).

However, the people are still living in the historic centre of the population, so don't wan't to see their (financially staggering) bus service being reduced, and there is no money (either commercially or subsidy) to run comparable services 'where now a lot of people live' .

Again I'll give an example, pre 1980 where I live was a about 2,500, however during the 80's it grew to be about 6,000 people, by expanding eastwards. The original population mostly fitted into an area between the current Western edge and the shopping area. The buses only run to the shopping area. Since then the population has grown significantly (now nearly 10,000 and yet the buses are still only running within about 300m of nearly all the original houses, yet the newer (i.e. built during the 89's and beyond) estates (which were most served of a new road of a suitable size for buses to run along) are often over 500m from the bus stops including a new supermarket (which is surrounded by houses) which is about 900m from the nearest bus stop (to illustrate how central it is there's about 600m of housing beyond it, leaving that houses on this edge of the settlement are 1.5km from the nearest bus stop).

Being unpopular (with existing users) and a good case for changing routes sits fairly uncomfortably. Upset and lose your existing customer base for the possibility of a new one is not usually a phrase associated with successful commercial operations, or the pleasure of local councillors having to deal with the flak from voters.

Taking the above location, you could divert the bus to serve the new supermarket by adding 5 minutes of driving time (so probably about 8 minutes of bus timetable) it would add the potential of about 8 new stops all quite some distance from the existing stops.

A lot would be people going to/from the settlement, the rest would be making journeys of over 30 minutes (once it's gone beyond the next village it's a very rural bus route until it gets to a smallish sized town and then again very rural until it reaches another smallish town, it's most used to get between those more major places with limited travel through them - the reality is it's what should be several shorter routes serving those towns but it's just that it's easier to join them up than find somewhere to turn around).

As such fairly few from the either side make it beyond this settlement, and if they were upset by it, there's a good chance that they would be more than replaced by those going to the new supermarket or by people able to more easily access the buses.

I think car clubs are a pretty niche activity, unlikely to become mainstream and only likely to fit a minority of people's circumstances. Not to say that they don't have their uses.

However I should think the barrier to expanding the concept of car clubs is if can you afford a car, or two cars, or more (depending on size of family), why wouldn't you? Yes, if you are (a) particularly enthusiastic on moral grounds, and/or (b) a public transport enthusiast, and/or (c) don't see a car as an extension of your persona and don't care much what other people think, and/or (d) have parking difficulties at home, and/or (e) would rather spend the money on something else, and/or (f) can't afford to own car/s, and (g) do not need a car each to get to work, then I can understand trading the inconvenience of not having a car each. And inconvenience it definitely is.

I live in a medium sized town in the shires. My wife and I (no children) have only had one car for the last 23 years. I fall in (b), (c) (e) and (g) categories. I have been within walking distance from work, or working from home, for all those years, and 25 min walk from the main bus stops and a fairly major railway station. [for 10 of them I was entitled to a fully expensed company car, but chose to take the cash alternative and use public transport instead].

For this to work I have had to have a pretty comprehensive knowledge of public transport routes and timetables. We both have had to have friends prepared to go out of their way to give us lifts (and reciprocated when circumstances allow). We have both had to schedule journeys in for when the car has been available, at severe inconvenience on occasions, none on others and a lot of some . Sometimes we've used taxis, and certainly walked quite some distance (healthy no doubt, but not always appreciated at the time, especially in bad weather or when carrying items). I've spent lots more of my time travelling by public transport than if a car had been available for the same journey. Some activities have been altered, curtailed or simply not done. But it has been an enjoyable time. Using a car club for any of this sounds like a faff too, but if available I might well have made occasional use?

One car and children would have been much, much more difficult. Having no car, or having to rely on a car club/ public transport/ taxis /car hire for everything would have been so restricting and miserable.

Until last year we only had one car (and three kids), mostly it's fine, you just have to plan a bit more. There's been fairly few times where we couldn't do everything needed because of a lack of a second car. That's in a rural (just, as it's got a population of only a little less than 10,000) location. Having said that, there's just about enough to mean that you can get around day to day without a car (two supermarkets, a selection of shops, pubs, churches, dentists, a doctor's surgery, the local schools fairly central - other than the secondary school but that's so far away it's in the next village so there's free school buses for all - and so on; no library but a second hand book club which sells books at 20p each, so cheaper than driving to the nearest library), I've worked so I've travelled out by train and I've worked so I've walked to work.and I've worked so I've cycled to the next village over.

The rain we've currently got two cars, we inherited one and it's too small to be out main car but is fuel efficient enough the extra costs of keeping it aren't too bad overall.

I'd be tempted to get rid of it if we could get a more reasonably cheap to run main car, as we still mostly only ever use one car at a time. We definitely would if there was a car club vehicle. We know of others who would too.

Only one car on the front drive (space for two cars), and the only car in the street to go in the garage at night.

If it wasn't for (b) and almost certainly (g) would I have put ourselves through all of this? No - we'd have foregone the (quantity and quality) of the alternative expenditure I expect.

I would say that I suspect that part of the reason that many do have two cars is they don't fully understand the cost of their car ownership. The average is cost (including purchase costs) is £3,500 per year and it's unlikely that many are less than £2,000 per year without doing very limited milage. However as it's £500 here, £3 there (and again, and again, and again) £140 for this £125 for that, £30 a week for fuel plus £120 a month to buy, then as the money doesn't just all go out in one lump people don't notice just how much does go out.

If you're doing 12,000 miles a year the 30p per mile isn't bad value, if you're doing 4,500 miles a year 55p per mile isn't so great value (I've reduced the petrol/diesel cost for the lower mileage, but most other costs would be broadly the same, depreciation would be a little slower, but even then a lot would be just because it's a year older).

A return to Manchester from London would be £230 at 55p per mile Vs £126 at 30p per mile.
 
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RT4038

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I'm give you a real world example where the thinking from the officers wasn't that good.

There was a sure being built and a further sure proposed further out, the suggestion was to extend the bus to the first site to the second site (few shares facilities so little need to travel between the two), both sites had over 500 homes (so quite sizable).

The proposal put forwards by the developers team, took a bus route from the other side of town and extended that to the hospital and then along the main road to the second site.

When the second option was put to the bus company they loved it. Why? The extra journey time from the day side of town only required one extra bus compared to the basic extension, but connected an existing service to the hospital as well as the new site to it.

Only then did the officers decide that it was a good idea (in fact they claimed that they thought it was a good idea all along).
I don't think it is some competition to show who is cleverer than who. There is no licence on brains, and the best ideas are those to be adopted, whoever thought of them. I don't think @TheGrandWazoo is implying that officials always have the best ideas either. I do note that you say the scheme adopted 'only required one extra bus' compared to the basic extension (current cost about £180k per annum) - well done for whoever got that funded and I hope that the additional business will cover it when the funding dries up.



If we keep cutting taxes, there will come a point where things will become hard for people.
We've got to this point already ( funding crises with Adult and Child social care, special education needs, potholes, railways etc etc ) and there doesn't seem to much appetite for tax increases to fund them. Bus services are well down the list of priority.

I have a question, if I have a shop with 2 hours parking restrictions outside it, except for permit holders, what is better:

- me and my other shop keepers parking in half (10 out of 20 spaces) of the spaces near the shop by using our permits
- leaving all 20 spaces vacant for our customers to use

The problem is, in business terms the latter is the better, as over an 8 hour day (assuming that each space is used for an average of 2 hours at a time) it's the difference between 40 customers for those shops and 80 customers for those shops.

Obviously, that's a very simple way of looking at it (in that there'll be shops which do need to have work based vehicles, however there'll be plenty which don't).
I don't have any idea of what this has got to do with the point being made by @TheGrandWazoo ?? Businesses and residents do not take kindly to losing parking outside their premises for, inter alia, bus lanes. It does not take a genius to work out why, and it has nothing to do with your question.

Again I'll give an example, pre 1980 where I live was a about 2,500, however during the 80's it grew to be about 6,000 people, by expanding eastwards. The original population mostly fitted into an area between the current Western edge and the shopping area. The buses only run to the shopping area. Since then the population has grown significantly (now nearly 10,000 and yet the buses are still only running within about 300m of nearly all the original houses, yet the newer (i.e. built during the 89's and beyond) estates (which were most served of a new road of a suitable size for buses to run along) are often over 500m from the bus stops including a new supermarket (which is surrounded by houses) which is about 900m from the nearest bus stop (to illustrate how central it is there's about 600m of housing beyond it, leaving that houses on this edge of the settlement are 1.5km from the nearest bus stop).



Taking the above location, you could divert the bus to serve the new supermarket by adding 5 minutes of driving time (so probably about 8 minutes of bus timetable) it would add the potential of about 8 new stops all quite some distance from the existing stops.

A lot would be people going to/from the settlement, the rest would be making journeys of over 30 minutes (once it's gone beyond the next village it's a very rural bus route until it gets to a smallish sized town and then again very rural until it reaches another smallish town, it's most used to get between those more major places with limited travel through them - the reality is it's what should be several shorter routes serving those towns but it's just that it's easier to join them up than find somewhere to turn around).

As such fairly few from the either side make it beyond this settlement, and if they were upset by it, there's a good chance that they would be more than replaced by those going to the new supermarket or by people able to more easily access the buses.
I understand your point, (and I don't know your part of the world very well), but someone is going to have to fund that extra 8 minutes per bus trip, which I expect is going to take 'only one extra vehicle' costing £180k per annum. So on top of the passenger (and thereby revenue) loss caused by by the diversion, the additional passengers are going to have to make up for this cost as well. Probably quite a leap of faith, which is why it hasn't been done. (and possibly the threat to reliability caused by Saturday congestion around the supermarket?).

Until last year we only had one car (and three kids), mostly it's fine, you just have to plan a bit more. There's been fairly few times where we couldn't do everything needed because of a lack of a second car. That's in a rural (just, as it's got a population of only a little less than 10,000) location. Having said that, there's just about enough to mean that you can get around day to day without a car (two supermarkets, a selection of shops, pubs, churches, dentists, a doctor's surgery, the local schools fairly central - other than the secondary school but that's so far away it's in the next village so there's free school buses for all - and so on; no library but a second hand book club which sells books at 20p each, so cheaper than driving to the nearest library), I've worked so I've travelled out by train and I've worked so I've walked to work.and I've worked so I've cycled to the next village over.

The rain we've currently got two cars, we inherited one and it's too small to be out main car but is fuel efficient enough the extra costs of keeping it aren't too bad overall.

I'd be tempted to get rid of it if we could get a more reasonably cheap to run main car, as we still mostly only ever use one car at a time. We definitely would if there was a car club vehicle. We know of others who would too.
Yes - you are showing that you have particular circumstances, and interest, to cope with one car too (like myself). In my post #63 you probably fall into categories (a), (b) (c) and (g). But lots and lots of people simply don't.

I would say that I suspect that part of the reason that many do have two cats is they don't fully understand the cost of their car ownership. The average is cost (including purchase costs) is £3,500 per year and it's unlikely that many are less than £2,000 per year without doing very limited milage. However as it's £500 here, £3 there (and again, and again, and again) £140 for this £125 for that, £30 a week for fuel plus £120 a month to buy, then as the money doesn't just all go out in one lump people don't notice just how much does go out.

If you're doing 12,000 miles a year the 30p per mile isn't bad value, if you're doing 4,500 miles a year 55p per mile isn't so great value (I've reduced the petrol/diesel cost for the lower mileage, but most other costs would be broadly the same, depreciation would be a little slower, but even then a lot would be just because it's a year older).

A return to Manchester from London would be £230 at 55p per mile Vs £126 at 30p per mile.

We do have two cats, but they don't cost anything like these amounts! I know you spend a lot of effort providing these comparison figures, but I don't think they are particularly relevant at all. Few are going to give up the convenience of their car - you discount the sheer inconvenience and effort of public transport use, bicycle riding, reduction in social activity* etc. - for the cost of running the extra car(s) because they can afford it and prioritise the convenience (and kudos) over spending on something else or saving for a stormy day perhaps. *Perhaps they do subconsciously put a price of £25,000 per year on these factors, so this overwhelms the other financial costs? Yes, some people don't consider this factor, but not enough demand for anything but skeleton public transport services......
 
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Bletchleyite

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"Marston Vale mafia"
We do have two cats, but they don't cost anything like these amounts! I know you spend a lot of effort providing these comparison figures, but I don't think they are particularly relevant at all. Few are going to give up the convenience of their car - you discount the sheer inconvenience and effort of public transport use, bicycle riding, reduction in social activity etc. - for the cost of running the extra car(s) because they can afford it and prioritise the convenience (and kudos) over spending on something else or saving for a stormy day perhaps. Yes, some people do, but not enough demand for anything but skeleton public transport services......

It's also false to think of all costs of car ownership as a per-mile one. This makes sense when designing a reimbursement rate for business expenses, but doesn't in any other context. Instead most people think of the cost of using a car to be fuel and parking, with other stuff just paid as and when it comes up. A better model is that you consider that the monthly payment, servicing*, insurance** etc to be a membership fee of the convenience of owning a car. That just leaves fuel, parking and a tiny amount of tyre wear and brake wear*** as the variables.

Thus what the bus competes with is basically fuel and parking.

* Most cars are 12 months/20K miles now. Some are even 24 months/20K miles. For the former it's just an annual cost for most as most people don't do anywhere near 20K miles per year.
** Mileage does need to be declared but makes far less difference than one would think. I had to up mine recently and the admin fee dwarfed the extra couple of quid on the premium.
*** Unless you drive aggressively of course.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I have a question, if I have a shop with 2 hours parking restrictions outside it, except for permit holders, what is better:

- me and my other shop keepers parking in half (10 out of 20 spaces) of the spaces near the shop by using our permits
- leaving all 20 spaces vacant for our customers to use

The problem is, in business terms the latter is the better, as over an 8 hour day (assuming that each space is used for an average of 2 hours at a time) it's the difference between 40 customers for those shops and 80 customers for those shops.

Obviously, that's a very simple way of looking at it (in that there'll be shops which do need to have work based vehicles, however there'll be plenty which don't).
I'm not really certain what you're getting at. I'm suggesting that the way forward is to incrementally reduce the number of spaces altogether though I note @RT4038's comments - folks have an expectation (almost a right) that they can park outside their house.
Indeed, however there's not the funding for those simple things, LTN's attract government grants to be installed which is why they get done.
Funding is always the issue. There is, of course, bountiful funds for Demand Responsive Transport but let's not go down that rabbit hole ;)

The Bus Service Improvement Plans can and do have funding for bus priority. Lowly old Somerset (that is nearly bankrupt like many councils) gets funding and so Taunton will get a further 2.5miles of bus lanes, whilst Bridgwater gets about 0.5 mile plus some traffic light prioritisations. West of England Combined Authority (WECA) has £35m in its BSIP funding and more through City Region Sustainable Transport (CRSTS) funding, and their plan shows how poor things are. Bath and North East Somerset has nearly 200k inhabitants, concentrated in Bath city, Keynsham, and Midsomer Norton/Radstock. There is 2.36 miles of bus lane currently in the county.

As for funding for LTNs, well the Uxbridge byelection was the catalyst behind this government stopping funding for them. That's the thing - councils have little money, what they have is spent on statutory duties (like education) and the only other thing they get is ringfenced (hypothecated) funds. However, I'm not certain that spending millions to buy houses in order to create small residents car parks is the best way forwards.

EDIT: I might add that I'm in favour of bus priority as capital spending gives us benefits now, next year and the next decade or more. Spending money on more buses that will be forever stuck in worse traffic simply isn't the answer.
 
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RT4038

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It's also false to think of all costs of car ownership as a per-mile one. This makes sense when designing a reimbursement rate for business expenses, but doesn't in any other context. Instead most people think of the cost of using a car to be fuel and parking, with other stuff just paid as and when it comes up. A better model is that you consider that the monthly payment, servicing*, insurance** etc to be a membership fee of the convenience of owning a car. That just leaves fuel, parking and a tiny amount of tyre wear and brake wear*** as the variables.

Thus what the bus competes with is basically fuel and parking.

* Most cars are 12 months/20K miles now. Some are even 24 months/20K miles. For the former it's just an annual cost for most as most people don't do anywhere near 20K miles per year.
** Mileage does need to be declared but makes far less difference than one would think. I had to up mine recently and the admin fee dwarfed the extra couple of quid on the premium.
*** Unless you drive aggressively of course.
Quite agree.

We generally don't strive to run our lives the most economically as possible - we could hand wash our clothes and bedding during our spare time, but we don't. We subconsciously put a value to that effort and inconvenience and loss of leisure time at an amount higher than the cost of the machine and the dryer. Likewise with a car versus the alternative lifestyle without. Of course, if we can't afford washing machines and/or cars then we have to put up with that standard of living as there is no other choice.

The bus not only competes with fuel and parking, but also the inconvenience factor, which is occasionally mitigated, in some places, by such things as car parking difficulties.
 

The Ham

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I'm not really certain what you're getting at. I'm suggesting that the way forward is to incrementally reduce the number of spaces altogether though I note @RT4038's comments - folks have an expectation (almost a right) that they can park outside their house.

The point in war making was that often shop keepers complain about the loss of parking when it's being put upon them by councils, however when it's them causing the loss of parking for their customers (and therefore potentially harming their business) they don't necessarily see it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Quite agree.

We generally don't strive to run our lives the most economically as possible - we could hand wash our clothes and bedding during our spare time, but we don't. We subconsciously put a value to that effort and inconvenience and loss of leisure time at an amount higher than the cost of the machine and the dryer. Likewise with a car versus the alternative lifestyle without. Of course, if we can't afford washing machines and/or cars then we have to put up with that standard of living as there is no other choice.

The bus not only competes with fuel and parking, but also the inconvenience factor, which is occasionally mitigated, in some places, by such things as car parking difficulties.

The thing is often the time savings are tiny.

For example we used to live near someone who would drive their kids to school and then drive home. Due to the congestion at the school we could see them getting into the car, for then to overtake us, only for us to get to the school gate at about the same time as them (sometimes a little quicker, sometimes a little slower).

Likewise my last job, it would take me an hour by train door to door. Off peak out was 30 minutes to drive, peak it was an hour door to door. Only I could do stuff on the train (including personal admin), so actually it wasn't all lost time unlike going by car.

Rarely were delays by train an issue, but mostly as there was 2 routes I could use for half the way. On a busy road day it would be much worse.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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The point in war making was that often shop keepers complain about the loss of parking when it's being put upon them by councils, however when it's them causing the loss of parking for their customers (and therefore potentially harming their business) they don't necessarily see it.
Ahh right. It does depend on specific conditions; the one I highlighted had a 1 hour limit 1000-1600 so unlikely that the proprietor will park all day
The thing is often the time savings are tiny.

For example we used to live near someone who would drive their kids to school and then drive home. Due to the congestion at the school we could see them getting into the car, for then to overtake us, only for us to get to the school gate at about the same time as them (sometimes a little quicker, sometimes a little slower).

Likewise my last job, it would take me an hour by train door to door. Off peak out was 30 minutes to drive, peak it was an hour door to door. Only I could do stuff on the train (including personal admin), so actually it wasn't all lost time unlike going by car.
It's often the perception of time and convenience, and some will never do anything than get the SUV out!

What needs to be done is to reduce that time penalty of travelling by bus. Bus priority is one, and by limiting car parking, you're also making that more of a time consuming search.
Especially if they have been able to do so until now!
Exactly!
 

Meerkat

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The question is who are "they"? If you're talking about local authorities, they've got very little money as it is.
Package it up for a funding application. I can think of somewhere where a handful of knock throughs would mean buses (including P&R) could go at residential speeds and still be significantly quicker than the route along the main road, whereas currently the P&R means leaving the comfort of your car to sit in a bus in the same traffic jam.
That's the American way of doing things, the net result is town centres which are low density and are no longer the destinations they once were.
Nothing like America - how many houses/shop units do you need to lose to replace the street parking outside a row, and it’s only on relevant bus routes? if It’s a bus route then it’s an opportunity to buy more property than you need and build flats to increase the density of potential passengers.
Or you can do a steady reduction in parking permits, eg announce that in two years it drops to one per house then two years later it’s none, and permit rights lapse when property is sold.
 

RT4038

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Or you can do a steady reduction in parking permits, eg announce that in two years it drops to one per house then two years later it’s none, and permit rights lapse when property is sold.
This would be very unpopular (and probably not implementable) as it would be reducing the value of the properties, without appropriate compensation.
 

The Ham

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Nothing like America - how many houses/shop units do you need to lose to replace the street parking outside a row, and it’s only on relevant bus routes? if It’s a bus route then it’s an opportunity to buy more property than you need and build flats to increase the density of potential passengers.
Or you can do a steady reduction in parking permits, eg announce that in two years it drops to one per house then two years later it’s none, and permit rights lapse when property is sold.

It's not uncommon for house (with back gardens adjoining each other) be in a block with 50m from any given point to the next comparable point on the next block over (say center of one road to the centre of the next road over).

If you're in a rush with semi detached houses, there's a fair chance you could get 3 cars parked across the frontage of two houses (circa 18m), however if it's a terrace house then it's more likely that you can only fit one car per house (circa 6m).

How may cars are you trying to fit in? 2 per house? For the semis you could probably for in a courtyard of parking for 8 spaces for every pair of semis removed, as you've already got 1.5 spaces per house for a street with 100 houses you'd need to get rid of 6 pairs of horses (total 88 homes left)

Repeat the prices for Terrence housing and it's likely that it's 150 houses, however now to get to 2 spaces you need to double the parking that you already have (although as soon as you demolish a house it reduces the demand), so to get the same parking courts with 100 spaces in you'd need to demolish about 40 houses (total about 110 homes left).

Whilst the smaller homes would be cheaper to buy up, the total number of homes left once you've done this isn't that different, even though you've got much smaller houses left, which probably couldn't justify the extra cost in buying up the houses for demolition.

40 homes at £100,000 would be a cost of £36,365 per house remaining. If you assume a 36 year pay back period, that's an extra £1,000 per year plus any interest on the loan.

Conversely for the semis the cost to buy 12 houses at £200,000 would work out at £27,280 per remaining home.

Whilst the total cost of house plus two spaces is less for the terraced housing, the extra cost to provide the extra space for the semi detached hinges would be about £9,000 less.

If you start building flats with two spaces per flat you run out of parking before you've built too many flats, even if the whole of the ground floor was parking and noise to tail parking along the road you'd max out at about 260 flats
 

RT4038

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The thing is often the time savings are tiny.

For example we used to live near someone who would drive their kids to school and then drive home. Due to the congestion at the school we could see them getting into the car, for then to overtake us, only for us to get to the school gate at about the same time as them (sometimes a little quicker, sometimes a little slower).

Likewise my last job, it would take me an hour by train door to door. Off peak out was 30 minutes to drive, peak it was an hour door to door. Only I could do stuff on the train (including personal admin), so actually it wasn't all lost time unlike going by car.

Rarely were delays by train an issue, but mostly as there was 2 routes I could use for half the way. On a busy road day it would be much worse.
Where I live it is a 25 min walk to the railway station or 25 min walk to the main bus stops [there is a local bus service (08h00-18h00) to the main bus stop, but this runs at a 72-90 minute interval, so the connectional waiting time is invariably longer than the walking time]. Almost any journey (probably save for trips of over 80 miles, which are relatively rare) is faster by car. The car also permits infinitely variable departure times and usually numerous alternative routes on tap, whereas by public transport this has be planned and executed with some precision.

Nowadays I normally work from home, but when I go to the office about 15 miles away, by public transport this involves either (a) a 25 min walk to the station, a 10 minute train journey (one station) , a wait of up to 20 minutes, then a 15 minute journey (two stations), then a 30 minute walk or waiting up to 20 minutes for a bus trip of about eight minutes and a five minute walk [total 1h40]; or (b) a 25 min walk to the main bus stop, a 50 minute bus journey and then changing (waiting up to 20 minutes) for a 12 minute bus journey and then a 5 minute walk [total 1h52 ]. The car journey takes 35-40 minutes [up to an hour in peak traffic, but I adjust my time of departure to avoid this, so rarely experience it]. Never is the car journey delayed for as long as the public transport journey has been sometimes. Intimate knowledge of the public transport timetables, and of the real time operations websites, is necessary to get the best possible experience and journey times, which the average person does not normally possess.

Aside from long distance trips, unless there are particular local circumstances (such as your short school run, and localised congestion at the school, or in heavy urban settings), or in the case of the stars lining up (live next to a railway station, and work next to another on a direct line or with quick connections), or if parking at either or both ends is difficult, it is just about always quicker and more convenient to go by car. So if you can afford one, why wouldn't you? Which of the two work journeys, yours or mine, is the closer to the typical work journey by the majority of the population the provinces, outside of those working centrally in the major cities?
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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Where I live it is a 25 min walk to the railway station or 25 min walk to the main bus stops [there is a local bus service (08h00-18h00) to the main bus stop, but this runs at a 72-90 minute interval, so the connectional waiting time is invariably longer than the walking time]. Almost any journey (probably save for trips of over 80 miles, which are relatively rare) is faster by car. The car also permits infinitely variable departure times and usually numerous alternative routes on tap, whereas by public transport this has be planned and executed with some precision.

Nowadays I normally work from home, but when I go to the office about 15 miles away, by public transport this involves either (a) a 25 min walk to the station, a 10 minute train journey (one station) , a wait of up to 20 minutes, then a 15 minute journey (two stations), then a 30 minute walk or waiting up to 20 minutes for a bus trip of about eight minutes and a five minute walk [total 1h40]; or (b) a 25 min walk to the main bus stop, a 50 minute bus journey and then changing (waiting up to 20 minutes) for a 12 minute bus journey and then a 5 minute walk [total 1h52 ]. The car journey takes 35-40 minutes [up to an hour in peak traffic, but I adjust my time of departure to avoid this, so rarely experience it]. Never is the car journey delayed for as long as the public transport journey has been sometimes. Intimate knowledge of the public transport timetables, and of the real time operations websites, is necessary to get the best possible experience and journey times, which the average person does not normally possess.

Aside from long distance trips, unless there are particular local circumstances (such as your short school run, and localised congestion at the school, or in heavy urban settings), or in the case of the stars lining up (live next to a railway station, and work next to another on a direct line or with quick connections), or if parking at either or both ends is difficult, it is just about always quicker and more convenient to go by car. So if you can afford one, why wouldn't you? Which of the two work journeys, yours or mine, is the closer to the typical work journey by the majority of the population the provinces, outside of those working centrally in the major cities?
Even most journeys over 80 miles are quicker by car - seldom do you have the convenience at either end of the route that you mention on your final para (and with which I agree). I remember probably this time 2016(?) and trying to be pious and full of good new years intentions. I had a journey from just south of Bath to the Ricoh Arena in Coventry (as it was called then) and decided I'd try it by public transport. That's probably a three hour journey by car - the train was about 2.5 hours with two changes but factor in the bus to Bath, walking across Cov city centre and a bus to the Arena, it was nearer 4. So I lost 3 hours of my day, and whilst I was perhaps able to do some work on the train from Bristol to Brum, it simply didn't make sense.

You are, of course, correct in saying having a car gives you flexibility to work wherever and whenever and it will always be much more attractive than the bus on that account. People won't give up their cars, and for most journeys, the time and faffing just isn't worth it when we're all time poor.

IMHO, what you need is to focus on those key major flows that public transport is really good at moving. What are those journeys that CAN be replaced by bus rather than car with a minimal time/financial penalty. In short, get from the suburbs into town centres; there may be the odd really major peripheral traffic objective like a major shopping centre or a hospital but town centres are usually it. Then try to make the bus faster, ensuring it isn't simply stuck in the same traffic. Then make parking more of a hassle - remove some of the supply (sell a car park for development or, better still, get reduce or remove roadside parking) so parking becomes costlier and more sparse. Oh, and buses need to be frequent enough for turn up and travel so you can forget lovely provincial towns like Stratford upon Avon but in Northampton... you still might have a chance.
 

Meerkat

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This would be very unpopular (and probably not implementable) as it would be reducing the value of the properties, without appropriate compensation.
Why should you be compensated - the road is public property, not owned by residents and they have no right to expect parking. The principle is already established by changes in yellow lines and charging for permits without compensation.
 

The Ham

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This would be very unpopular (and probably not implementable) as it would be reducing the value of the properties, without appropriate compensation.

Houses without off street parking are already reduced in value compared to those with it, for the simple reason that the highest authority could bring about a change in the road layout without actually having to take on board any consultation comments (they tend to because of politics, but they don't have to).
 

RT4038

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Why should you be compensated - the road is public property, not owned by residents and they have no right to expect parking. The principle is already established by changes in yellow lines and charging for permits without compensation.
I thought that the proposal was for bus lanes to replace on street parking and 'all traffic' lanes, which would require consultation and public support. There are plenty of examples of bus lanes proposed which have never happened, and bus lanes introduced and fairly shortly afterwards reversed, due to public opposition. So do you want the proposal to have any chance of success, bearing in mind the minority interest that bus passengers are? If so, you'll need to buy off [compensate] the opposition, in some way or another

As I understand it, yellow lines and parking permit schemes are also subject to consultation and frequently fall or are modified as a result of the public input. As I understand it, the charge for parking permits is to pay for the enforcement to ensure residents parking are prioritised (and therefore it is in their interests), rather than blanket no parking bans in front of houses that currently have that facility, even if it is not a technical 'right'.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Houses without off street parking are already reduced in value compared to those with it, for the simple reason that the highest authority could bring about a change in the road layout without actually having to take on board any consultation comments (they tend to because of politics, but they don't have to).
for the simple reason that the parking is not guaranteed ( from being used by other road users), and the parked vehicle more likely to incur damage. Don't think the highest authority actions has that much to do with it, because in a democracy the politics will usually have some mitigating effect (as you point out).

However, having no on street parking in the vicinity will reduce the value even further, and possibly that of properties in surrounding streets with on street parking, as this will put their parking spaces under increased pressure.

It is always easy to propose solutions which only have adverse effects on other people.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

IMHO, what you need is to focus on those key major flows that public transport is really good at moving. What are those journeys that CAN be replaced by bus rather than car with a minimal time/financial penalty. In short, get from the suburbs into town centres; there may be the odd really major peripheral traffic objective like a major shopping centre or a hospital but town centres are usually it. Then try to make the bus faster, ensuring it isn't simply stuck in the same traffic. Then make parking more of a hassle - remove some of the supply (sell a car park for development or, better still, get reduce or remove roadside parking) so parking becomes costlier and more sparse. Oh, and buses need to be frequent enough for turn up and travel so you can forget lovely provincial towns like Stratford upon Avon but in Northampton... you still might have a chance.
Whilst I agree with your principle, I am not sure that there is political will (not just politicians but the population, both residential and business, at large too) and there is a danger that all the effort spent on lobbying for the unattainable will be wasted. Insufficient attention is being paid to just making what we have got to work properly and be anything but the barest minimum for those who have to use it. Why would any non-believers convert when the current offer is often so grim? (and this grimness is not just due to 'congestion')

I think that removing city/town centre parking capacity will just exacerbate the moving of business/retail capacity to suburban/ green field retail and office parks, rather than much inducing people to ride buses from the suburbs. The howl from these businesses will be great, and it will be brave and rhino skinned politicians to do much of it. However, I'm not sure what is happening in towns around you, but there may be a silver lining - my town [and those around] are gradually converting many of the business premises and Victorian houses in and around the centre to lower cost flats, apartments and houses of multiple occupation. Even the Shopping Centre is being halved in size and converted into flats. The residents of these high density properties are more likely to be public transport users and because of legacy bus networks actually have pretty comprehensive services to places they may wish to go to. With the remaining shops and businesses this should help in 'two-way' flows of passengers on the bus routes (individual town geography and demographics applying of course)

As for the new suburbs, I think these are currently and in the foreseeable future lost to anything but a minimum public transport offer. The aspirations of the bulk of residents is not bus travel and it is not worth expending too much effort on trying to convince the unconvinceable, when so many of their journeys will be a major inconvenience without using a car. Yes, they need some semblance of service at (depending on the size of development) one hub bus stop easily (quickly) accessible by buses and reasonably accessible by the residents. Many of the examples of @markymark2000 are replicated across the country and are caused mainly by the car culture of the majority of the population - I think he underestimates the quantity of people submerged in it and their aspirations (nice house and nice car) which pervades much of society nowadays. Pro bus people (as opposed to neutral 'I've got to use them') are considered quirky and are to be smiled at rather than taken any notice of, at virtually all levels. Of course, it is quite possible that this lack of bus provision will bite some years down the line when circumstances change, but who knows where technology and culture will have got to by then?
 
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Dr Day

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Ireland are putting some serious money into bus infrastructure (albeit from a relatively low base), in parallel with land use policies to increase housing densities at least in new developments, with a view to driving modal shift. Anyone on here with a closer understanding of how successful this is, and how much opposition it is getting so far? Maybe @berneyarms ?

 

johncrossley

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However, I'm not sure what is happening in towns around you, but there may be a silver lining - my town [and those around] are gradually converting many of the business premises and Victorian houses in and around the centre to lower cost flats, apartments and houses of multiple occupation. Even the Shopping Centre is being halved in size and converted into flats. The residents of these high density properties are more likely to be public transport users and because of legacy bus networks actually have pretty comprehensive services to places they may wish to go to. With the remaining shops and businesses this should help in 'two-way' flows of passengers on the bus routes (individual town geography and demographics applying of course)

I mentioned this earlier, and this seems to be happening a lot in towns around the south-east where there is a strong demand for flats in town centres and makes central government housing targets easier to meet, because they don't have to build as much housing at the edge of towns where they face fierce opposition from NIMBYs.

Although no doubt some people may manage to see this from a glass half full perspective. If most of the places they want to go are within walking distance, then that is no good for buses either.

Contrary to popular understanding, the out of town business park is also in decline. Yes, they are convenient for drivers to get to, but in other respects they are undesirable, particularly if they want to attract younger staff without cars. There is nothing to do at lunchtime unless you are prepared to go for a drive. No Tesco Express or Pret within walking distance, unlike city centre offices.

The out of town business park is even in decline in America:

Suburban offices built between the 1960s and 1980s were already struggling before the pandemic, with their aging mechanical systems and the changing tastes of millennials (in the Wayne case, Toys “R” Us also went bankrupt). A younger generation wants more urban offices, real estate developers say, or at least suburban offices that feel more urban, with sidewalks and somewhere different to eat lunch every day. But now layer on remote work, “and this might finish it off,” Ms. Mozingo said.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Whilst I agree with your principle, I am not sure that there is political will (not just politicians but the population, both residential and business, at large too) and there is a danger that all the effort spent on lobbying for the unattainable will be wasted. Insufficient attention is being paid to just making what we have got to work properly and be anything but the barest minimum for those who have to use it. Why would any non-believers convert when the current offer is often so grim? (and this grimness is not just due to 'congestion')

I think that removing city/town centre parking capacity will just exacerbate the moving of business/retail capacity to suburban/ green field retail and office parks, rather than much inducing people to ride buses from the suburbs. The howl from these businesses will be great, and it will be brave and rhino skinned politicians to do much of it. However, I'm not sure what is happening in towns around you, but there may be a silver lining - my town [and those around] are gradually converting many of the business premises and Victorian houses in and around the centre to lower cost flats, apartments and houses of multiple occupation. Even the Shopping Centre is being halved in size and converted into flats. The residents of these high density properties are more likely to be public transport users and because of legacy bus networks actually have pretty comprehensive services to places they may wish to go to. With the remaining shops and businesses this should help in 'two-way' flows of passengers on the bus routes (individual town geography and demographics applying of course)

As for the new suburbs, I think these are currently and in the foreseeable future lost to anything but a minimum public transport offer. The aspirations of the bulk of residents is not bus travel and it is not worth expending too much effort on trying to convince the unconvinceable, when so many of their journeys will be a major inconvenience without using a car. Yes, they need some semblance of service at (depending on the size of development) one hub bus stop easily (quickly) accessible by buses and reasonably accessible by the residents. Many of the examples of @markymark2000 are replicated across the country and are caused mainly by the car culture of the majority of the population - I think he underestimates the quantity of people submerged in it and their aspirations (nice house and nice car) which pervades much of society nowadays. Pro bus people (as opposed to neutral 'I've got to use them') are considered quirky and are to be smiled at rather than taken any notice of, at virtually all levels. Of course, it is quite possible that this lack of bus provision will bite some years down the line when circumstances change, but who knows where technology and culture will have got to by then?
I do understand your caution and the political nature of all this. We've seen it with ULEZ, LTNs and plenty of other localised issues - the latest being York where blue badge holders are now being permitted to drive into the centre once again. Any modal shift in the burbs to the centre can only be done via a set of appropriate measures. Yes, the offering has to be a lot better than many places currently experience with some distinctly sub-standard operations and hence anything resembling punitive action cannot be undertaken until that is addressed. However, the rather naive view of some commentators (not you, I hasten to add) is that if you have a cheap, modern bus service (publicly owned, naturally) with a uniform network identity, then people will naturally discard their cars.... and you and I know that they won't.

We need to look at those places (sadly far too few) where there has been modal shift... Reading, Brighton, Nottingham, Bristol... They've managed to do harness good operators with effective bus priority. My nearest major settlement is Bath and that's seen a regression in bus priority. They are pursuing schemes with residents permit parking (much to the chagrin of local traders) yet even piecemeal moves that could assist buses haven't been progressed. If anything, I'm arguing against the big flagship schemes - they are too easy to raise protests against. For example, the Wells Road has parking for about 7/8 cars - no businesses, no residential. That could form part of a bus lane that would be a massive bonus for the P&R, Frome, Radstock and Odd Down/Fox Hill routes - that's about 14/15 buses per hour (and could be increased with bus priority). Needs First to also sign up - a two way commitment - by providing better vehicles than 12 year old e400s and older B9s.

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And yes, we are seeing a change to how our town and city centres are functioning with the repurposing of existing buildings for habitation rather than retail. More interestingly, I know of schemes where major educational institutions are being actively encouraged to move into former retail sites - the former Debenhams in Gloucester is going to be part of the university, and there's another I'm aware of - this will again help encourage city centre footfall and those businesses (convenience stores, coffee shops, etc) that will feed off that.
 

Ken H

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I do understand your caution and the political nature of all this. We've seen it with ULEZ, LTNs and plenty of other localised issues - the latest being York where blue badge holders are now being permitted to drive into the centre once again. Any modal shift in the burbs to the centre can only be done via a set of appropriate measures. Yes, the offering has to be a lot better than many places currently experience with some distinctly sub-standard operations and hence anything resembling punitive action cannot be undertaken until that is addressed. However, the rather naive view of some commentators (not you, I hasten to add) is that if you have a cheap, modern bus service (publicly owned, naturally) with a uniform network identity, then people will naturally discard their cars.... and you and I know that they won't.

We need to look at those places (sadly far too few) where there has been modal shift... Reading, Brighton, Nottingham, Bristol... They've managed to do harness good operators with effective bus priority. My nearest major settlement is Bath and that's seen a regression in bus priority. They are pursuing schemes with residents permit parking (much to the chagrin of local traders) yet even piecemeal moves that could assist buses haven't been progressed. If anything, I'm arguing against the big flagship schemes - they are too easy to raise protests against. For example, the Wells Road has parking for about 7/8 cars - no businesses, no residential. That could form part of a bus lane that would be a massive bonus for the P&R, Frome, Radstock and Odd Down/Fox Hill routes - that's about 14/15 buses per hour (and could be increased with bus priority). Needs First to also sign up - a two way commitment - by providing better vehicles than 12 year old e400s and older B9s.

View attachment 150794

And yes, we are seeing a change to how our town and city centres are functioning with the repurposing of existing buildings for habitation rather than retail. More interestingly, I know of schemes where major educational institutions are being actively encouraged to move into former retail sites - the former Debenhams in Gloucester is going to be part of the university, and there's another I'm aware of - this will again help encourage city centre footfall and those businesses (convenience stores, coffee shops, etc) that will feed off that.
We have to be careful because we could end up with 2 cities. We see that in Leeds with one community living in the centre and another in the suburbs. Since I was a kid in the 70's we have seen outer Leeds having built a cafe culture in Chapel Allerton, Street Lane, Oakwood, and odd cafes on parades of shops, as an alternative to going into the city to socialise. I wonder how much the city centre dwellers and the suburban dwellers meet or are they separate. Which would not be good for society
 

The Ham

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We have to be careful because we could end up with 2 cities. We see that in Leeds with one community living in the centre and another in the suburbs. Since I was a kid in the 70's we have seen outer Leeds having built a cafe culture in Chapel Allerton, Street Lane, Oakwood, and odd cafes on parades of shops, as an alternative to going into the city to socialise. I wonder how much the city centre dwellers and the suburban dwellers meet or are they separate. Which would not be good for society

I live in a place with a population of around 9,000, the next village over had a population of 4,500. Whilst many go to the nearest town, quite a lot don't.

Arguably by dealing in a smaller number of people there's better social cohesion than if you tried to do the same in a larger location.

That's not to say that people shouldn't engage in the wider area (for instance people engage at Parish, District, County and national level).

Likewise, there's a fair chance that within a circle of friends that someone will know people in the other areas/larger area.

Taking a child as an example, is it better for a child to go to a school miles from their home as it's bigger or are they better off going to the local school where they are likely to be able to play with each other in the local parks and round each other's homes?

The answer isn't always clear cut, but generally parents would opt for the local school.

In the same way it's not unreasonable for people wish to use the cafe local to them to meet with people local to them and probably bump into other people local to them.

If they do to the city centre cafe, there could be good reasons to do so (meet a wider group of people, meet with people from other areas to learn from eachother, etc.), however they're less likely to bump into someone they know - so in the same way, I would suggest that, neither is bad for social cohesion they just have different impacts.
 

RT4038

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I mentioned this earlier, and this seems to be happening a lot in towns around the south-east where there is a strong demand for flats in town centres and makes central government housing targets easier to meet, because they don't have to build as much housing at the edge of towns where they face fierce opposition from NIMBYs.
The flats are being built in town centres because of demand (cheaper and convenient to some, rather than distant suburbs), coupled with availability of cheaper surplus retail and office space.

If most of the places they want to go are within walking distance, then that is no good for buses either.
I have lived within walking distance of my work for over 20 years, [ until recently when I have gone over mainly to working from home]. I would recommend either as being much less stressful and time wasting as commuting by public transport or by car. It is a bit of tail wagging the dog if a particular type of settlement is preferred in order to be 'good for buses' rather than walking. Of course lots of these town centre dwellers work in out of town business parks/retail centres/distribution parks etc and are creating plenty of bus travel, as well as more likely to make interurban trips by public transport because the legacy transport hubs, both road and rail, are close by.

Contrary to popular understanding, the out of town business park is also in decline. Yes, they are convenient for drivers to get to, but in other respects they are undesirable, particularly if they want to attract younger staff without cars. There is nothing to do at lunchtime unless you are prepared to go for a drive. No Tesco Express or Pret within walking distance, unlike city centre offices.
I do not think this is what is currently happening in my county of residence in 'the Shires'. Town centre office occupation is declining. Out of town business parks are showing little sign of decline yet, although there are now only few being applied for planning permission. Those that are tend to be much larger and often contain some kind of retail facilities as you mention, so there may well be some truth in your assertion and the promoters of business parks are adjusting to this. Have got one example of a modern small business park being completely demolished and replaced by affluent housing. However what is certainly not happening is any return to town centre offices. I suspect that WFH has more braking effect on out of town business parks than anything to do with attracting younger staff or public transport access.

Drive thru' burger and coffee places are expanding in number, and judging by the queues of vehicles are doing quite well. Definitely car culture!
 

Meerkat

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However what is certainly not happening is any return to town centre offices.
Still building new office buildings in my town. Older offices have been converted to prison blocks, sorry bedsits, sorry studio flats (some without windows to the bedrooms!).
The chap from the developers told me there is still big demand for brand new offices with all the environmental credentials (the block we are discussing will have a huge cycle store with a work bench and bike wash - they call it all a 'cycle spa'!).
 

RT4038

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Still building new office buildings in my town. Older offices have been converted to prison blocks, sorry bedsits, sorry studio flats (some without windows to the bedrooms!).
The chap from the developers told me there is still big demand for brand new offices with all the environmental credentials (the block we are discussing will have a huge cycle store with a work bench and bike wash - they call it all a 'cycle spa'!).
Is that being built in the traditional town centre though?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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We have to be careful because we could end up with 2 cities. We see that in Leeds with one community living in the centre and another in the suburbs. Since I was a kid in the 70's we have seen outer Leeds having built a cafe culture in Chapel Allerton, Street Lane, Oakwood, and odd cafes on parades of shops, as an alternative to going into the city to socialise. I wonder how much the city centre dwellers and the suburban dwellers meet or are they separate. Which would not be good for society
I don't think that is the reason per se.

The fact is that there have been many changes in terms of society since the 1970s, and it extends much further than that. Remember, we have a much more dispersed - an employer like Tetleys had 1000 employees. In some places, like Hunslet, you'd have major employers on the doorstep for many, or relatively easy to serve. That is much more fragmented though the city centre is still the main draw for both retail and work. Even the world of socialising has changed - we're drinking less than the peak years of the millennium. I don't know if there ever was this great social mixing - certainly on the big estates like Belle Isle or Seacroft, you'd have the scary locals pubs and not so many heading into town.

******

It's easy to pick out individual examples that we know but we need to look at the broad trends. We are seeing town centres contracting as retail units are vacated. In some instances, these are being repurposed. Some become residential, some educational, and some as offices. However, over the last 40 years, we've seen a marked general movement from city centre offices to peripheral business parks that are difficult to service by buses.

If the question is how you make bus travel relevant to the current car user, you have to accept that people won't simply give it up (and many never will). It's a case of focussing on the main journeys/traffic objectives, reducing the time differential between car and bus (and so reducing that convenience) and doing all that without alienating the car lobby.
 

Ken H

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I don't think that is the reason per se.

The fact is that there have been many changes in terms of society since the 1970s, and it extends much further than that. Remember, we have a much more dispersed - an employer like Tetleys had 1000 employees. In some places, like Hunslet, you'd have major employers on the doorstep for many, or relatively easy to serve. That is much more fragmented though the city centre is still the main draw for both retail and work. Even the world of socialising has changed - we're drinking less than the peak years of the millennium. I don't know if there ever was this great social mixing - certainly on the big estates like Belle Isle or Seacroft, you'd have the scary locals pubs and not so many heading into town.

******

It's easy to pick out individual examples that we know but we need to look at the broad trends. We are seeing town centres contracting as retail units are vacated. In some instances, these are being repurposed. Some become residential, some educational, and some as offices. However, over the last 40 years, we've seen a marked general movement from city centre offices to peripheral business parks that are difficult to service by buses.

If the question is how you make bus travel relevant to the current car user, you have to accept that people won't simply give it up (and many never will). It's a case of focussing on the main journeys/traffic objectives, reducing the time differential between car and bus (and so reducing that convenience) and doing all that without alienating the car lobby.

I grew up in Chapel Allerton (b 1956) in Leeds. A friend of my parents who lived a 200 yards away worked at Elida Gibbs (now Unilever) on Coal Rd, Seacroft. That is 5.2 miles car journey and Google Maps reckons 14 minutes.
By bus today it would take 38 minutes using the 9 ring road bus and include 23 minutes of walking. The 9's are not very frequent - never have been - and I would expect he had fixed start and end times at work back then, non of this new fangled flexitime.
So he drove...
His wife went to a choir once a week in Leeds (evenings). She could have got the bus there and back but he took his wife and my Mum. I think the choir was at Leeds Uni, and the bus home went from the bus station, so that would be 2 buses, or a longish walk at 21:30.
Thats nearly 60 years ago.
And he had a Ford Anglia with the sloping back window....
 
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