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Modern driving aids and their impact on driving standards

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Lewisham2221

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Sat nav, cruise control, speed limiters, reversing sensors, lane departure warning/assist, automatic emergency braking, automatic headlights and wipers etc etc. As much as they are convenient, and no doubt prevent  some accidents, I can't help but feel that some road users have become over reliant on such features, to the point that their standard of driving is significantly worse. Thoughts?
 
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dangie

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Personally, but unfortunately I’ll be long gone when they appear, I can’t wait for totally automatic driverless vehicle’s. Just input your destination and the vehicle will take you there. I’ve driven for over 50 years but never actually enjoyed it. For me driving is simply a way from getting A to B.
 

MattA7

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I’ve heard it can be a problem for new drivers who learn in their instructors car which is often a new fairy high spec car with those features however when the driver passes their test they buys a older second hand car that doesn’t have such features they struggle.

Anti stall technology in some modern manual cars is a particular problem for new drivers.
 

birchesgreen

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I’ve heard it can be a problem for new drivers who learn in their instructors car which is often a new fairy high spec car with those features however when the driver passes their test they buys a older second hand car that doesn’t have such features they struggle.

Anti stall technology in some modern manual cars is a particular problem for new drivers.
Thats quite normal isn't it? After passing my test in a (then) pretty much brand new Clio i then bought a car with manual choke and non-powered steering which literally weighed a ton.
 

JohnMcL7

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I can't really see how any of the features you've listed significantly worsen people's driving as they're small conveniences that don't make that much difference, if we were talking about autonomous driving systems where you could sit back and let the car drive most of the time I could see your point but we're nowhere near that point. In particular I think features like automatic braking systems are a great feature and there's no way people are using that instead of braking themselves as when that feature triggers it's a very forceful one.

There was plenty of bad driving before these technologies existed so anything that can be done to improve that through technology is welcome. I have a blind side detection system on my car which is one of the most useful features it has, it doesn't stop me doing my lifesaver checks but it's another pair of eyes keeping a look out for me all the time.

Lane departure systems are one I'm not sold on though as any car I've driven with the system I've just found it an annoyance.
 

Islineclear3_1

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For me, rear parking sensors are a real help, especially when parking in narrow streets in London. Other than that, I rarely use cruise control on the motorway, lane assist and automatic wipers are more of a hindrance really. And I certainly would not want to have a speed limiter - I can judge and manage my own speed thanks. I think some technology offers too many distractions
 

DelW

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I can't really see how any of the features you've listed significantly worsen people's driving as they're small conveniences that don't make that much difference, if we were talking about autonomous driving systems where you could sit back and let the car drive most of the time I could see your point but we're nowhere near that point.
Coming soon to a motorway near you:
Ford is bringing advanced driver assistance (ADAS) to Great Britain via the 2023 Mustang Mach-E. The newest iteration of its BlueCruise ADAS has regulatory approval from the Department for Transport (DfT) for SAE Level 2 autonomy. That means the car can pilot itself and the driver can take their hands off, but they must continue supervising the car’s progress.
Personally, I think reducing the "workload" on the driver can have a negative impact, each successive reduction in driver input needed worsens the problem of drowsiness, particularly on motorways. I suspect there will be cases using the technology described above where the driver, despite apparently watching the road, has effectively zoned-out and will be too slow to retake control if a dangerous situation develops. Serious accidents have occurred in such situations in the US, though not apparently using Ford's system.

I don't now find drowsiness while driving a problem, but when I was working, a combination of less sleep and driving a high mileage meant I encountered it regularly. The recommended cure is to park up and have a nap, but I found it just as effective to pull off a motorway onto parallel smaller roads (where possible). The extra driving inputs needed to drive along these cleared the brain fog just as well.

I'll be interested to see how the Ford trial goes, but I wouldn't want either to use this half-way-house technology myself, or be anywhere near anyone who is.
 

trebor79

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TBH I find a lot of these systems are nothing but a nuisance. I turn off the lane departure warning system immediately that I switch the car on, or as soon as it starts tugging at the wheel, bleeping at me or vibrating the wheel if I forget. Unfortunately it switches itself back on every time the car is switched on.
Adaptive cruise control is useful and works well. The rest of it can get in the sea.
 

Broucek

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Semi-selfdriving is the worst of all worlds... Either I can switch off and read the newspaper or I need to be in primary control. The idea that I need to be "ready to step in" is madness
 

Ted633

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One for me is cars that have a small light within the wing mirror that comes on when a vehicle is along side you. All it really achieves is people stop looking in their mirrors and rely on the light!
 

Lucan

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Reversing cameras have come about because it is so difficult to see to the rear otherwise with modern styling. I have always had estate cars and older ones were almost like a greenhouse at the back. Now we have narrow windows like on a battle tank, and, to make things worse, the fashion is bodywork that significantly slopes up to the rear.

Semi-selfdriving is the worst of all worlds... Either I can switch off and read the newspaper or I need to be in primary control.
Semi self driving requires you to make two assessments (such as when to start braking) all the time instead of one :-

1) Deciding what you would do if you were driving yourself
2) Deciding if the self-driving has departed enough from (1) to intervene

In practice, plenty of SD car owners simply abdicate responsibility and go to sleep, watch movies, or even sit in the rear seat. The internet is full of such cases. SD should be good for 100% or not fitted at all.
 
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Triddle

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As somebody who cycles a lot, I live in fear of those lane guidance systems. All it takes is a mark on the road, redundant road markings (eg where building work is going on) and a less than attentive driver (checking phone, anyone?) and that person on the bike you were overtaking is spam.
 

trebor79

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As somebody who cycles a lot, I live in fear of those lane guidance systems. All it takes is a mark on the road, redundant road markings (eg where building work is going on) and a less than attentive driver (checking phone, anyone?) and that person on the bike you were overtaking is spam.
The lane guidance in my car wants to drive the car waaay over to the left hand side. I never use it. It's a pointless feature as it turns off after a while if you don't keep your hands on the wheel, so I might as well steer it mysle.f
 

dangie

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Reversing cameras have come about because it is so difficult to see to the rear otherwise with modern styling.…
Whatever the reason I don’t know but I’m glad our Ford Kuga has a reversing camera. Fifty plus years of driving and it’s by far the worst car I’ve had for reversing. Maybe my lack of old age flexibility has much to do with it as I can’t spin my head around like I used to. The rear side and rear windows are so tinted that in all but the brightest days it’s like looking through welding glass. The wing mirrors seem to have a shape profile that I can adjust them for either driving or reversing but not both at the same time.

Having said this, it’s a lovely car to drive. Better still because of its height easy to get in & out of :lol:
 

Bletchleyite

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Five or six years ago I met, through work, the CEO of a reasonably large car company. He was strongly of that view.

If it's billed as self-driving then yes, it should be good enough for there not to be a licensed driver in the car at all, as you can be sure it'll be used that way.

The tech can however bring a lot of valuable driver safety aids like automatic braking, adaptive cruise control, lane departure warning etc, but these should probably come with driver vigilance features to ensure the driver *is* still in control.
 

Broucek

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The tech can however bring a lot of valuable driver safety aids like automatic braking, adaptive cruise control, lane departure warning etc, but these should probably come with driver vigilance features to ensure the driver *is* still in control.
Yes, agreed. I did once get woken up by my car when I'd started to doze and strayed from my motorway lane. I was VERY grateful (and stopped at the next safe place having opened all the windows until then)
 

Dave W

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Is this sentiment not true of any car feature down the years though?

I learned in a Corsa, absolutely bombproof clutch that I could have pulled away in third with and had an extremely forgiving biting point... Compared to my first car which wanted out of first gear virtually as the wheels started rolling and would offer me out for a scrap if I looked at the clutch pedal funny. I spent most of my first 3 months stalled at traffic lights panicking whilst the Mercs and BMWs in rear sounded their displeasure :lol:

I suspect x decades ago people were bemoaning how much worse drivers who had the benefit of power steering were. C'est la vie.
 

Bletchleyite

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Is this sentiment not true of any car feature down the years though?

I learned in a Corsa, absolutely bombproof clutch that I could have pulled away in third with and had an extremely forgiving biting point... Compared to my first car which wanted out of first gear virtually as the wheels started rolling and would offer me out for a scrap if I looked at the clutch pedal funny. I spent most of my first 3 months stalled at traffic lights panicking whilst the Mercs and BMWs in rear sounded their displeasure :lol:

I suspect x decades ago people were bemoaning how much worse drivers who had the benefit of power steering were. C'est la vie.

The key difference with any of these features is that the driver is still fully in control of and fully responsible for the vehicle.

Self-driving implies they can let go of the wheel and fiddle with their phone. Thus it needs to be good enough so that actually is safe*, because even with enforcement stepped right up you're not going to catch everyone who does that.

It'll get there, but it's not there now - nowhere near.

* Safe of course is relative, but as a bare minimum it needs to be as safe as an average driver.
 

matchmaker

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My views. Adaptive cruise control - very useful and I use it a lot. Rear parking sensors - depends on the car. My car - a Skoda Superb - is long and the view behind when reversing isn't great, especially when you have arthritis in the neck. Don't see the point of it in a short car like an Aygo. Front parking sensors - I could manage fine without them. Automatic wipers - totally crap! Adaptive headlights which turn with the steering - could manage fine without them.
 

Flange Squeal

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I like to think I'm not yet old enough to be classed as a boring old fart who is just set in their ways and resistant to technological progress, but if I get a hire car that has some modern gadgets I always look to see if they can be turned off.

Daytime running lights (DRLs) are a bugbear of mine - how often do you see cars at night running around with the DRLs illuminated, with no other lights on. The driver presumably unaware because the DRLs on normal daytime mode are bright enough to light the road ahead so they seemingly don't notice they don't have any lights on. With DRLs often brighter when in normal day mode, they can be pretty blinding at night! Some even relatively modern Suzukis and Dacia cars I've driven have DRLs which is fine, but the dash is only backlit when you turn the dipped beams on yourself. This reduces the risk of driving around with only DRLs on the front and nothing on the back at night as you can't see your instruments, so when you get in the car at night you don't forget to put your lights on.

On the subject of lights, the ones that seem to move around over bumps and look like people are flashing - what's that all about? Is this an automatic replacement for the old manual adjustment system that you used to move your beam up and down depending on how much weight you had in the car or when pulling a trailer etc? I once had a friend call me up after picking their car up from the garage as their headlights wouldn't switch on. Turns out during the service the switch had obviously got moved off from automatic lights...

Things like lane departure warning etc, as already mentioned. I get the principle of why they exist but in practice have found them sometimes having the potential to cause issues, such as the example above regarding overtaking vulnerable road users and it tries to guide you back in when you cross the line. Makes you use your indicators a lot more though, as that seems to overrule the system on ones I've tried, but sometimes if nothing is around you might not always think to use them for a quick overtake.

The light that appears in the mirror if something is in your blind spot... I've often wondered if a better system would've been the other way round so that it was on when there ISN'T anything in your blind spot? Currently if the system itself fails, or just fails to pick something up, then people see no light and may just move out thinking it's clear. A light on at all times, only going out when there is something there, would see people looking for the light and only moving out blindly if it was lit. Therefore if the system fails (or fails to pick something up) then no light is shown, and people will hopefully assume that means something is there and hopefully perform a good old fashioned blind spot check. I must confess I've not had a car with them, just seen it on other people's when one of us is overtaking/next to the other and on a hire car I once drove only briefly and in daylight hours, so I don't have first hand experience of how big/bright these lights are from a driver's perspective.

Satnavs are another big one for me. Now I do use one sometimes, mainly when driving abroad, and when used properly I believe are a good invention. I think I've read that these days you have to use one in your driving test, during which time people's training has hopefully seen them taught to use them for guidance in conjunction with getting into the habit of still doing blind spot checks etc. People who passed before this was added, which group I fall into myself, I fear has a subgroup within it whereby they blindly react to what the Satnav tells them. It say get in the right hand lane, so they move across without even checking their mirrors or blind spot (sometimes without any indication or only indicating after beginning to move over), nearly taking you out! I say this because so many times this manoeuvre has been pulled on me, you then see through the rear window that they do indeed have a satnav going, and in many cases where not integrated into the dash it's mounted right in the middle of the windscreen in what seems to be a place where it must surely block some of their view? Rather than say on top of the dash or in the bottom right hand side of the windscreen more out of the way. The user-fitted phone mount in my neighbour's car looks to be almost right in front of their face!

My car is possibly due an upgrade, but I'm reluctant because it is very much a basic vehicle without many of these gadgets or gizmos. It has electric windows, integrated satnav/Bluetooth/Radio, and heated door mirrors... but that's about it! It does have cruise control too, but I've only really found it useful abroad where the roads are generally a bit less busy - not found it worthwhile over here. I guess that might change if I had the adaptive type though. I love it for its simplicity though. I sometimes fear too much tech disconnects people further and further from the actual driving itself, sort of de-skilling the task of drivers at a time where the driver is still ultimately needed to control the vehicle. Maybe too much too soon?
 

codek

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I think there's been a giant drop in driving quality since covid. Not sure why
 

Stewart2887

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So today, my year-old Golf threw a software wobbly, parking sensors and SOS inoperative. I'ts done this a dozen times before. Today, my local Oxford VW dealer rang me to offer assistance. I didn't buy it from them and have never been there, but have booked a service in June. Why now, and why no response before? Stopped the engine and restarted, all faults gone
 

Bletchleyite

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So today, my year-old Golf threw a software wobbly, parking sensors and SOS inoperative. I'ts done this a dozen times before. Today, my local Oxford VW dealer rang me to offer assistance. I didn't buy it from them and have never been there, but have booked a service in June. Why now, and why no response before? Stopped the engine and restarted, all faults gone

Depends on how their CRM system works. It's quite possible that booking a service at that dealership causes it to be set as your default dealership, and the car reported the issue back via your phone (or otherwise).
 

43096

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So today, my year-old Golf threw a software wobbly, parking sensors and SOS inoperative. I'ts done this a dozen times before. Today, my local Oxford VW dealer rang me to offer assistance. I didn't buy it from them and have never been there, but have booked a service in June. Why now, and why no response before? Stopped the engine and restarted, all faults gone
My three year old Golf had thrown wobblies over internet connections, SatNav and cruise control speed set at various times - never quite often enough to be a total pain until earlier this year. Took it in as it started doing it every trip and they had to complete re-flash the software as the software was fighting with itself! So far not had an issue since, but not done any really long trips.

For me, rear parking sensors are a real help, especially when parking in narrow streets in London. Other than that, I rarely use cruise control on the motorway, lane assist and automatic wipers are more of a hindrance really. And I certainly would not want to have a speed limiter - I can judge and manage my own speed thanks. I think some technology offers too many distractions
My current car is the first one I've had with cruise control, and it's adaptive cruise control and I think it is fantastic. Particularly useful on motorways where there's a 50 TSR in force or where they've been downgraded to "smart" status with cameras - just adjust the cruise control and it drops the speed and holds it there.
 
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trebor79

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If it's billed as self-driving then yes, it should be good enough for there not to be a licensed driver in the car at all, as you can be sure it'll be used that way.

The tech can however bring a lot of valuable driver safety aids like automatic braking, adaptive cruise control, lane departure warning etc, but these should probably come with driver vigilance features to ensure the driver *is* still in control.
Other than adaptive cruise control, all of these features are nothing but a nuisance for a competent driver. I turn them all off.
 

dangie

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Whenever a thread on motoring appears on any forum it generally attracts comments from those members who have an interest in cars and driving. Not necessarily ‘petrol heads’ but they like the experience of driving. Technology which takes away that driving skill is the work of the devil.

However I’d guess that for most motorists the car is simply a tool from getting A to B. Any driving aid which makes this easier and safer is to be welcomed. Just how many would swop their current car with all its modern features and comfort with one they had 50 years ago? Yes I know some will say ‘I would’ but in reality you probably wouldn’t.

This is progress. It happens……
 

hassaanhc

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On my 2016 Vauxhall Astra, the lane keep assist is only active above 37mph (70kph) and it works very well. The headlight switch has no "off" position, only auto, side lights, and on, which again works ok (it can sometimes be reluctant to switch off the headlights in bright sunlight, but that's a "right-side failure" I suppose). The auto wiper sensor isn't the best, but the auto bit can be switched off and that position on the stalk used as a conventional interval wipe, and of course there is still the option to switch the wipers off. However, it hasn't annoyed me enough to switch off the auto function.
 

Egg Centric

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On the subject of lights, the ones that seem to move around over bumps and look like people are flashing - what's that all about? Is this an automatic replacement for the old manual adjustment system that you used to move your beam up and down depending on how much weight you had in the car or when pulling a trailer etc? I once had a friend call me up after picking their car up from the garage as their headlights wouldn't switch on. Turns out during the service the switch had obviously got moved off from automatic lights...

It is indeed. Due to their brightness versus halogens, for type approval they need to be self levelling.

I assume this regulation stems from the Netherlands or some other flat place by non driving EU bureaucrats because it doesn't solve at all that they will blind you on hills!
 
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