More dangerous lineside behaviour around Flying Scotsman

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by DanDaDriver, 23 Dec 2018.

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  1. Mintona

    Mintona Established Member

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    It would be a shame to see it banned. I last saw it about 12 years ago in the NRM being repaired. But today I passed it whilst it was stopped at Didcot Parkway, and it was really nice to see it out working again. There were people everywhere but nobody that I saw was in any position of danger.
     
  2. Mathew S

    Mathew S Established Member

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    My honest opinion? I think it is what it is. Truly horrific though I am aware they are, it's just not possible, without taking disproportionate measures, to prevent fatalities on the railway. I'm not saying that all involved should stop trying to keep incidents as few and far between as is reasonably practicable. But, the key word there is 'reasonably'. To me, I don't think that there is anything more than is already being done that can reasonably be done.

    I really, truly feel for those staff who have to deal with the aftermath of the incident which will seemingly inevitably happen because of this moronic behaviour; but I don't think any responsibility at all for that incident now rests with the railway. I genuinely think we've reached a point where nothing more should be done, and if a stupid person chooses to ignore all the warnings they are given, that's entirely their own fault.

    I also want to bring up the purely economic argument. Human lives have a value, of course they do, but that value is not unlimited. At what point does the cost of measures being taken to save lives become too high to justify? It's a question that comes into play in this case, as well as with level crossings, etc. There are numerous ways (yet more additional staffing, policing, barriers/fences, etc.) that the railway could be made safer to operate, but for the number of lives that might be saved, I just don't think it is appropriate to spend the sums of money that would be required.
     
  3. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

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    Have we heard of any trespassing incidents surrounding the steam services into and out of Waterloo this summer so far? No. Do people trespass when they see the Black 5s over Glenfinnan? No. Flying Scotsman is the issue and as sad as it is, she may have to be pulled from the mainline if people won't stop trespassing.

    -Peter

    EDIT: Both of the above are cases of mainline steam (in regular use). Maybe another way to try and keep Scotsman going on the mainline is to run it on a small line somewhere with no times published every day for a few weeks? Pie in the sky idea, though.
     
  4. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Established Member

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    Is the woman in the red coat at the foreground of the picture with a kid?!
     
  5. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

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    Looks like it. But, really, considering what some people get up to, I'm not surprised.
    It always seems to be Joe public who go to these events, trespass with kids, and then ask "Why can't I do it? It's a public highway!", which it is and isn't; it's railway property. Trespassing on railway property is a crime and they should all be charged £1000. The mum £2000 maybe for endangering the child's life as well. Imagine if a fast train had gone through and the child hadn't moved out of the way.

    -Peter
     
  6. bobbyrail

    bobbyrail Member

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    1) Economic value to who? I very much doubt that the Scotsman visiting is pumping much value into towns and villages along its route, most are there to see the loco not buy ice creams, Burgers, and other local wares. Network Rail probably provide these routes at a loss when the normal delays are involved because of trespass and that's not even thinking about the policing cost to BTP.
    2) That positive image will only last until someone is killed, when this happens the main stream media will be full of headlines like, "Train that should have been scraped 50 years ago kills young dad" & "Questions asked about why old steam train did not have modern brakes", many more examples could be used.
    3) You say that in your view NR, BTP and the operators have done everything that could be expected of them and i agree, so what can they do now apart from end steam from NR metals?

    As an aside any fatality that does occur with a steam loco on the network will also create a very negative image for heritage railways running steam.
     
  7. pieguyrob

    pieguyrob Member

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    I presume it was scotsman I saw at Didcot, about an hour and a half ago. I passed it on an IET.
     
  8. Adsy125

    Adsy125 Member

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    Instead of the proposals of an outright ban, if it is absolutely necessary could it just be allowed after dark. As well as is areas where trespass hasn’t occurred, for example (correct me if I’m wrong) Scotland and the South West?
     
  9. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

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    Was it a larger steam engine in dark green? If so, it was Scotsman. If it was smaller, it was "Clun Castle".


    -Peter
     
  10. 3141

    3141 Established Member

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    I wouldn't have called your post "silly", but on an average day just under five people die on the roads in the UK and sixteen die as a result of an accident in the home - so what else would you propose to ban?

    I expect the driver would sound the horn, and perhaps apply the brakes.
     
  11. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    Of course, but trains don't stop that fast. It's absolutely insane that people were leaning beyond the edge of the platform to hold their cameras. Plus the horn could make them fall (not that the driver could possibly not use it as a result of this risk).
     
  12. pieguyrob

    pieguyrob Member

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    60103 and 7065 respectively? I don't have my steam engines number book to hand.
     
  13. SilentGrade

    SilentGrade Member

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    Yes and while he’s at it why doesn’t he just steer out of the way :rolleyes:

    If the person doesn’t move then what?
     
  14. Mathew S

    Mathew S Established Member

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    Nothing. That's what I'm saying. There is nothing more that can be done, nor should it be. If I were Network Rail I'd be publically saying, "there is nothing more we can do, you have been warned, trespass on railway property and if you die, you die."
     
  15. 6Gman

    6Gman Established Member

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    One of the photographs I have seen shows two people with a pushchair standing over a platform yellow line as FS approaches. The child is at more risk than the adults. But is not "choosing to behave with immense stupidity". Additionally, the victim I'm more concerned is the guy who has to scrape the trespasser's remains from train and p way ...
     
  16. SN1 19-5

    SN1 19-5 Member

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    I have to agree with the above. I have been on this planet 57 years. Riding on trains (on and off) for about 44 of them years.

    Getting into scrapes/laughs etc at all points. Stations, sheds, lineside, works etc. I never got harmed way back in the day. Never got in trouble either! I wonder why!

    How come people are dying today?.......
     
  17. 6Gman

    6Gman Established Member

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    To whom?
     
  18. O L Leigh

    O L Leigh Established Member

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    But that is not a defensible position. All it takes is for a savvy lawyer to point at the inadequacies of the boundary fencing to show that Nitwit Rail isn’t doing all that it can. Therefore they are likely to carry at least some of the responsibility for any deaths that may occur.
     
  19. Mathew S

    Mathew S Established Member

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    How much would it cost to fence off the whole network? If it's more than NR would have to pay in compensation/settlement to the deceased's family etc., and potentially to any affected staff or passengers, then there's only one decision, and it ain't the fencing. As I said above, human lives do of course have an intrinsic value, that value is not unlimited.
     
  20. reddragon

    reddragon Member

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    Trains were slower, noisier & less frequent basically!

    Also people today live in virtual reality, don't get exposed to danger by playing out all day so cannot see the dangers.
     
  21. O L Leigh

    O L Leigh Established Member

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    And that’s great “back in the day”. But the world has moved on since then and society is far more litigious than it once was. Therefore all sorts of companies are taking actions to protect themselves from potentially damaging legal claims.
     
  22. Mathew S

    Mathew S Established Member

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    The national railway museum for a start. I doubt the publicity does any harm to the bank accounts of heritage railways and/or other relevant attractions either.
     
  23. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    If they want to get themselves killed by such gross stupidity, I call Darwin. The ones I am concerned about are the drivers and those who have to clean the mess up.

    Needs a big purge to arrest and charge a load of them, though.
     
  24. Mathew S

    Mathew S Established Member

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    Then the parent (assuming they are) should be prosecuted, and not just for trespass. If the child had been killed, then a prosecution for manslaughter would have been in order as well, I would suggest. That's what the law is there for.
     
  25. O L Leigh

    O L Leigh Established Member

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    I doubt that you will find that attitude would wash in a court of law. The potential damage to reputation as well as any financial penalties would quickly mount up against Nitwit Rail; hence why I say that such a position is indefensible.
     
  26. Mathew S

    Mathew S Established Member

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    Bluntly, I disagree. My reading of Health and Safety law is that you take all reasonable steps. Network Rail have done just that. I find it difficult if not impossible to see how a reasonable court could rule otherwise.
     
  27. CentralTrainer

    CentralTrainer Member

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    Nice zealotic straw man you’ve built there...
     
  28. 6Gman

    6Gman Established Member

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    But the vast majority is fenced. Then idiots ignore it.
     
  29. 6Gman

    6Gman Established Member

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    The NRM chose to spend a huge amount to restore it to mainline condition. They didn't need to. Do people respond to seeing FS by saying "let's visit the Llangollen Railway" (or wherever) ? I don't know but I doubt it's significant.
     
  30. O L Leigh

    O L Leigh Established Member

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    I’m happy for you to disagree, but I’ve heard too many tales of reasonable courts making unreasonable rulings. I don’t disagree that high fences around the entire network seems disproportionate, but, when faced with an individual case involving a fatality where a person accessed the line at a weak point, I don’t believe that any reasonable court would would agree that Nitwit Rail had done all that was reasonably practicable.

    You have to understand that there is a world of difference between Health & Safety law which outlines the responsibilities of an individual, an organisation or an employer, and incident investigation. What we’re talking about here is the latter rather than the former, and in this instance ALL factors, whether causal or contributory, will be taken into consideration and lessons drawn from them. It doesn’t matter how much money Nitwit Rail spend on putting up high fences elsewhere if the point at which access is actually gained is weak. That being so, how could Nitwit Rail possibly say it’s taken all reasonable steps to safeguard that person and prevent them from being killed?
     
    Last edited: 15 Jun 2019
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