More rover issues

[tony_mac]

I was looking at some rover tickets, and noticed more problems with validity on train companies - in fact on nearly all the ones that I looked at. The validity text varies, but some of them do specifically say valid on all services but don't list all of the operators.

Anyway, here they are :-

The Freedom of Devon & Cornwall Rover

The Freedom of Devon & Cornwall Rover provides unlimited use of all National Rail services on the map in the validity section

That seems ok, but has Arriva Trains Wales, do they operate any services?


Freedom of North East

Only valid within the area shown on the map.

Does not have Grand Central, EMT (Doncaster Gainsborough) or Hull trains (Hull Selby)

Freedom of Scotland Travelpass

Valid on all scheduled services wholly within Scotland, including to and Carlisle and Berwick-Upon-Tweed.

Does not have XC (dundee aberdeen) or TPE (Lockerbie Glasgow)

Freedom of Severn and Solent

The Freedom of Severn & Solent Rover provides unlimited use of all National Rail services on the map in the validity section.

Does not have Southern (Southampton Portsmouth)

Freedom of the North West

Only valid within the area shown on the map
The Rover allows travel to Carlisle from Barrow, Dumfries, Lockerbie and Hexham.

Does not have Scotrail (Which I think would leave only 1 train per day from Dumfries - Carlisle)
Does not have NXEC (Leeds Skipton)

Freedom of Wales Flexi Pass

Valid on all mainline rail services in Wales

Does not have WSMR, does not have CrossCountry (Newport Cardiff)
Also has Northern, but I can't see any services.

Freedom of the South West

The Freedom of the South West rail rover provides unlimited use of all National Rail services on the map in the validity section.

Does not have London Midland (Gloucester Worcester) or Southern

I guess that the Nationalrail website is not something to rely on for rovers.

 

[yorkie]

I really wouldn't worry about the list of operators. They change all the time and NRES can't keep up!

What matters is that the NCoC states that you can use any companies' trains unless it is stated on the ticket (not on some website, or some top secret manual that we can't see).

The TOCs can give you more rights than in the NCoC but they can't give you less.

I fairly often use GC on a NE Rover, and their staff are all familiar with them and accept them (GC staff have stated so on this forum!), and they all know what they are as they used them when they were learning the route.

 

[glynn80]

The phrases on the FRPP seem to differ quite extensively from those on the National Rail website.

The Freedom of Devon & Cornwall Rover:

NR:
The Freedom of Devon & Cornwall Rover provides unlimited use of all National Rail services on the map in the validity section

FRPP:
-Only available within the area shown on the map below.

-Valid only on services of the following Operators: ...


Freedom of North East:

NR:
Only valid within the area shown on the map.

FRPP:
Only valid within the area shown on the map below.

Valid on the services of the following Operators: ...


Freedom of Scotland Travelpass:

NR:
Valid on all scheduled services wholly within Scotland, including to and Carlisle and Berwick-Upon-Tweed.

FRPP:
Valid for Standard class travel on the services of all rail operators on scheduled services in Scotland and services to/from Carlisle and Berwick upon Tweed.


Freedom of Severn and Solent:

NR:
The Freedom of Severn & Solent Rover provides unlimited use of all National Rail services on the map in the validity section.

FRPP:
-Only available within the area shown on the map below.

-Valid only on services of the following Operators: ...


Freedom of the North West

NR:
-Only valid within the area shown on the map

-The Rover allows travel to Carlisle from Barrow, Dumfries, Lockerbie and Hexham.

FRPP:
-Only valid within the area shown on the map below.

-Valid on the services of the following Operators: ...


Freedom of Wales Flexi Pass

NR:
Valid on all mainline rail services in Wales

FRPP:
Valid on all National Rail services in Wales bounded by Holyhead, Shotton, Chester, Crewe, Shrewsbury, Craven Arms, Hereford, Abergavenny, Newport plus most scheduled bus services.


Freedom of the South West

NR:
The Freedom of the South West rail rover provides unlimited use of all National Rail services on the map in the validity section.

FRPP:
-Only available within the area shown on the map below.

-Valid only on services of the following Operators: ...


The most likely explanation for the anomalies regarding TOCs not included on the validity lists, is just pure oversight on the part of NRES, similar to that of the EMT saga with the Coast & Peaks Rail Rover.

However I would reserve judgment on the Open Access operators who may not have participated in some of the above Rover schemes when they became associate members of ATOC.

It seemed as if NRES did reply fairly quickly when questioned about the EMT situation. Perhaps an email outlining the above anomalies would be the best option to resolve the issues.

 

[yorkie]

It's daft to list operators. Why would you do that? It wouldn't happen with a "normal" point to point ticket!

They should say it is valid by all TOCs except.... and then list all the TOCs that supposedly do not participate and, if they want to enforce it, they must put "NOT <insert TOC name here>"* on the ticket. If they do not do that it is not enforceable.

In reality there are very few prohibitions anyway. Even WSMR and GC officially accept rovers, and I don't think Hull Trains have ever denied the use of a rover that I'm aware of (Max will correct me if that's wrong!). They also accept PRIV discounted tickets, despite ATOC constantly saying that they do not.

* For example, "NOT GATWICK EXP" is the only "not" TOC-specific route I can think of that is currently in use, but if Virgin ever wanted to enforce a restriction against West Mids Day Rangers, they could get them to say "NOT VIRGIN TRAINS".

 

[glynn80]

What matters is that the NCoC states that you can use any companies' trains unless it is stated on the ticket (not on some website, or some top secret manual that we can't see).

They should say it is valid by all TOCs except.... and then list all the TOCs that supposedly do not participate and, if they want to enforce it, they must put "NOT <insert TOC name here>"* on the ticket. If they do not do that it is not enforceable.

It has already been explained that Condition 10 of the NRCoC is only related to "tickets valid only in trains of particular train companies". I'm pretty sure it is not to be used in relation to tickets that are "inter-available" between TOCs.

If I can use the original text that is quoted within the pre 2006 edition of the NRCoC, so as to try to gauge what exact message the scripters of the document wished to convey:

10. Trains which you can travel on

Some tickets are only valid for the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. This is shown clearly on the tickets. If you have bought such a ticket you may not use it on any other Train Company's trains.

The above is pretty clear in stating that the TOC, which the ticket is valid on, will be printed on the ticket, rather than the the TOCs which the ticket is not valid on. It is obviously to be used in relation to Advance fares and the like rather than "Any Permitted" or Rover fares.

I do agree that the Condition 10 wording within the current NRCoC is difficult to interpret but the only sensible suggestion is the one I have stated above.

As you would no doubt agree, listing all the TOCs, tickets are not valid on, could get quite extensive on various tickets and would just be a "daft" suggestion (similar to that of your assertion, listing TOCs which the ticket is valid on, is also "daft").

 

[yorkie]

It has already been explained that Condition 10 of the NRCoC is only related to "tickets valid only in trains of particular train companies". I'm pretty sure it is not to be used in relation to tickets that are "inter-available" between TOCs.

eh?!?!

We've been through this before, but I am going to post it again:

B. VALIDITY OF TICKETSi
10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibittravel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket. If you travel in a train with a ticket that is not valid, the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If you are unable to use a ticket or any part of it, you may be able to claim a refund under Condition 26 or Condition 36.

That's pretty clear. There can be a restriction e.g. "NXEC and Connections" which limits you to a TOC (and connecting TOCs where applicable) or there can be a prohibition e.g. "Not Gatwick Exp".

If there is no restriction or prohibition then the tickets are, clearly, fully inter-available on all TOCs subject to the route being valid.

It is irrelevant whether a TOC receives any cash either, for example Huntingdon to Peterborough Season is "Any Permitted"*, and Huntingdon to London is also "Any Permitted" so combining the two is valid on NXEC!

As you would no doubt agree, listing all the TOCs, tickets are not valid on, could get quite extensive on various tickets and would just be a "daft" suggestion (similar to that of your assertion, listing TOCs which the ticket is valid on, is also "daft").

I don't think so, as there are very few prohibitions. How many prohibitions are there, that are actually enforced? Nearly all the missing TOCs are due to NRES simply missing them off the list.


(* Why does Avantix Traveller 03 show +Any Permitted for this fare?!)

 

[glynn80]

B. VALIDITY OF TICKETSi
10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibittravel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket. If you travel in a train with a ticket that is not valid, the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If you are unable to use a ticket or any part of it, you may be able to claim a refund under Condition 26 or Condition 36.

That's pretty clear. There can be a restriction e.g. "NXEC and Connections" which limits you to a TOC (and connecting TOCs where applicable) or there can be a prohibition e.g. "Not Gatwick Exp".

You are IGNORING the title of the whole condition, Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies. It is not meant to be used in relation to all ticket types as stated in the pre-2006 document I quoted above.

It is irrelevant whether a TOC receives any cash either, for example Huntingdon to Peterborough Season is "Any Permitted"*, and Huntingdon to London is also "Any Permitted" so combining the two is valid on NXEC!

I'm sorry but it is relevant if a TOC receives revenue for a particular ticket or not, when referring to Rover tickets. I agree ORCATS may not allocate revenue to some slower routes valid within the routeing guide but the ticket is still advertised as valid. In the circumstance I am discussing, the ticket is advertised as invalid, which is completely different with regard to what a TOC can legally refuse to accept.

(* Why does Avantix Traveller 03 show +Any Permitted for this fare?!)

Have no idea, the FRPP only shows two flows, "rte Any Permitted" and "rte Flexitime", no +Any Permitted is shown at all (although I have no idea what "rte Flexitime" is).

EDIT: Have located some details on the "rte Flexitime season ticket for the Huntingdon to Peterborough flow:

First Capital Connect Flexitime Season tickets are subject to the same issuing procedures as other Season tickets

Outward Travel & Return Travel

In the country-bound direction by any train on any day. On Mondays to Fridays, travel in the London-bound direction is only permitted on any train timed to depart between 1200 (midday) and 0230. No restriction applies on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays.

 

[yorkie]

If you are saying that the rule only applies to tickets limited to particular companies, then any tickets that are not limited to particular companies are therefore, err... not limited!

I rest my case!

 

[glynn80]

If you are saying that the rule only applies to tickets limited to particular companies, then any tickets that are not limited to particular companies are therefore, err... not limited!

I rest my case!

As I have already stated, I believe it is not easily interpreted and I'm sure that if challenged in court it would not stand up, but until that court case arrives we are left with the document as such.

However I do honestly believe this condition does not apply to all tickets, as you are claiming and any guard who was confronted, with what you are claiming, would dismiss it out of hand.

 

[yorkie]

It clearly does apply, and how can they disregard the NCoC?

As for "ignoring the title", I am not. All conditions have a title. There is nothing 'special' about that title! The title just explains what each condition is about, nothing more and nothing less. That's the condition that says that some tickets can be restricted by TOC and that, if so, it will be on the ticket, therefore it has that title. Simple really.

 

[glynn80]

As for "ignoring the title", I am not. All conditions have a title. There is nothing 'special' about that title! The title just explains what each condition is about, nothing more and nothing less.

Well if a title states 'only for these types of tickets', then it only meant to apply to those types of tickets, not all ticket types.

You can't claim the title is irrelevant totally?

 

[First class]

Flextime is the name for Off Peak Season Tickets:

Outward & Return Travel
In the country-bound direction
by any train on any day. On
Mondays to Fridays, travel in
the London-bound direction is
only permitted on any train
timed to depart between 1200
(midday) and 0230.
No restriction applies on
Saturdays, Sundays or Bank
Holidays.

 

[OwlMan]

I agree with Yorkie's interpretation.

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
Surely a rover ticket not valid on Virgin Trains is included in this definition

The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.
Therefore "Not Virgin Trains" must be shown on the ticket

If you travel in a train with a ticket that is not valid, the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If you are unable to use a ticket or any part of it, you may be able to claim a refund under Condition 26 or Condition 36. 5


Peter

 

[krus_aragon]

The Freedom of Devon & Cornwall Rover

The Freedom of Devon & Cornwall Rover provides unlimited use of all National Rail services on the map in the validity section

That seems ok, but has Arriva Trains Wales, do they operate any services?

Arriva Wales used to run a Cardiff-Penzance service. I think this was transferred out of their franchise in 2002.

National Rail's TOCs page still shows this route in ATW's little graphic.